All Segments
The Art of “Taste” — Brie Wolfson
33 segments available
Sign Up for "Writing Examples" and Learn From The Best Writing of All Time: https://www.writingexamples.com Writing is thinking, which means it’s like lighter fluid for business growth. Brie has played major roles at writing-rich companies like Stripe, and her expertise on writing-first culture is now used by giants like Amazon and Basecamp. As she says: “Reality has a surprising amount of detail.” Writing illuminates all the interesting details worth pursuing. And as a result, companies who prioritize writing operate with impressive speed, intention, and rigor. In this episode, Brie shares years of hard-won wisdom to expose how great writing sets companies apart. She explores the balance of writing vs. taking action; she breaks down the editing process better than a modern-day Maxwell Perkins; and she sheds light on the secret to great writing: your zone of obsession. If you want to learn how to do the best writing of your life, and grow your company while you’re at it, this episode is for you. SPEAKER LINKS: Website: https://www.briewolfson.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/zebriez Stripe Press: https://press.stripe.com/ WRITE OF PASSAGE: Want to learn more about the next class for Write of Passage? Click here: https://writeofpassage.com/ PODCAST LINKS: Website: https://writeofpassage.com/how-i-write Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2DjMSboniFAeGA8v9NpoPv TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:24 Write at Stripe 00:11:40 Writing less 00:14:25 Writing magazines 00:17:30 Writing profiles 00:19:00 Vanity Fair 00:21:50 The New Yorker 00:26:50 Editing 00:34:00 Write to one person 00:41:10 Brie's "Taste" 00:47:20 Cultivating taste 00:59:30 Writing Novels & Fiction ABOUT THE HOST: I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible.
Segments Timeline
The Power of Writing for Clarity
Brie Wolfson discusses her experience at Stripe, emphasizing how writing serves as a powerful tool for clarity in thinking. She explains that writing helps clarify thoughts, making it easier for organizations to communicate ideas effectively. This segment highlights the importance of clear writing in fostering organizational cohesion and understanding.
"and you just struggle to get your personality onto the page? Definitely something I felt. And when I struggle with that, Brie is one of the people who I like to call up. And if you've never hear..."
The Role of Internal Writing
Brie elaborates on the nature of internal writing at Stripe, distinguishing between day-to-day writing and curated content that informs the organization. She shares insights on how this curated writing contributes to a culture of transparency and shared understanding, allowing employees to access important ideas without the need for meetings.
"the org level is very powerful, because then you have an artifact of ideas, and now you don't need to translate them or transfer them through a meeting or a one-on-one conversation, they're actu..."
Balancing Thinking and Doing
In this segment, Brie reflects on the balance between thinking and doing within a writing culture. She warns against overthinking and emphasizes the importance of action, suggesting that sometimes the best way to resolve debates is through execution rather than discussion. This insight is crucial for maintaining momentum in a fast-paced work environment.
"flavors. I think Stripes writing culture is very related to its reading culture, strong stomachs for reading, which means strong stomachs for writing. What are the downsides of a writing culture..."
The Birth of Stripe Press
Brie shares the origin story of Stripe Press, detailing how a manuscript led to the creation of a publishing initiative aimed at empowering entrepreneurs. She discusses the logistical challenges of producing the first book and how this endeavor laid the groundwork for future publications, enhancing Stripe's brand and culture.
"What's principle's friction? You can imagine you have two different ideas and you need to resolve the principle in order to get the work off the ground. So I'm trying to think of a good example o..."
Designing Quality Books
Brie describes the meticulous design choices behind Stripe Press books, including the innovative lay-flat binding that enhances user experience. She explains how these design elements reflect Stripe's commitment to quality and the importance of details in creating a lasting impression on readers.
"next book. Should we just try a few others?" So I think this is my great idea. And then it turns out, so Tyler Cohen was one of our first four authors. It turns out he and Patrick had been talkin..."
The Importance of Color and Durability
In this segment, Brie discusses the color choices and durability of Stripe Press books, emphasizing the use of impregnated stock to maintain vibrant colors over time. She highlights the intention behind these choices, aiming for books that withstand wear and tear while remaining visually appealing.
"kind of binding called lay flat binding where instead of gluing all the paper to the spine, you can actually, you use some threads that has some give. So if you lay it flat and you look at it, w..."
Collaborative Writing Projects
Brie reflects on her role in managing various writing projects at Stripe, emphasizing her passion for collaborating with creative thinkers. She shares how she helps others articulate their stories and insights, fostering a culture of shared learning and internal marketing through effective communication.
"stock is dyed just on the surface level, which means when you wear the paper a lot it wears to white. But we purchase what's called an impregnated stock, which means it's actually blue all the w..."
Understanding Your Audience
Brie discusses the challenge of remembering what the audience knows versus what the writer knows. She draws parallels to fiction writing, stressing the importance of clarity and engagement in writing, and how focusing on the audience's perspective can enhance storytelling.
"Along what axes did you need to push people the most as you were helping people? I think when you're in the weeds of something, it's really hard to remember what's interesting. Because you're so ..."
The Art of Narrowing Focus
In this segment, Brie emphasizes the significance of narrowing one's writing focus to enhance clarity and impact. She advises against trying to cover too much ground, advocating for a concentrated approach that allows for deeper exploration of specific topics, ultimately leading to more engaging writing.
"especially if you're a practitioner. You're like, "I don't want to leave this part out. It's so core to the thing." It's just like, "Not memorable." I think that the cardinal flaw, the cardinal m..."
Marriott's First Impressions
Brie shares insights into Marriott's culture, particularly their obsession with creating a positive first impression within the first ten minutes of a guest's experience. This focus on detail exemplifies how small elements can significantly impact customer satisfaction and brand perception.
""I visited 100 different hotels and I'm going to write the full experience about all these." It's just way too much. I'm so glad you brought this specific thing up, because recently I've been dig..."
The New Yorker’s Editorial Process
Brie discusses the editorial approach of The New Yorker, highlighting Harold Ross's influence on maintaining a consistent style across diverse writers. She explains how rigorous editing and a focus on tone and style contribute to the publication's reputation for quality writing.
"the guide to hotels. I thought you were going to talk about the napkins. I really care about napkins. I've actually sourced different napkins, because I like writing my to-do lists on napkins. So..."
Obsession in Writing Profiles
Brie concludes this segment by discussing the importance of obsession in writing profiles, both from the writer and the subject. She emphasizes that a deep interest in the subject matter leads to more compelling narratives, reinforcing the idea that great writing stems from genuine passion and curiosity.
"his creatives, which was sort of not the norm of the day, the more businessmen were thought of as the treasurers in the other places. Harold loved the artists. He was so into his writers, he gav..."
High-Low Culture in Vanity Fair
Brie shares insights on Vanity Fair's editorial style under Tina Brown, who introduced the concept of 'high-low' culture. This segment explores how blending highbrow and lowbrow content creates a dynamic reading experience, making the magazine both engaging and accessible. Brie draws parallels between this editorial strategy and the culinary world, illustrating how diverse influences can elevate storytelling.
"maybe the other thing that's interesting about how the New Yorker edits is they really prefer exclusives, which means that they have to write about odd topics. And because it takes them so long ..."
The Importance of Authenticity
Brie discusses the significance of authenticity in writing and branding. She emphasizes that brands should embrace their unique voice rather than trying to fit into a specific category. This segment highlights the dangers of being caught in the 'uncanny valley' between highbrow and lowbrow, advocating for a more extreme and interesting approach to content creation.
"that's the worst place to be. And I think this is a lesson for a lot of things. And we talked about this already, it's just pulling to the extreme is actually way more interesting. And I've been..."
The Role of Packaging in Writing
In this segment, Brie reflects on the importance of packaging in writing, drawing from her experiences with magazines like The New Yorker and Vanity Fair. She discusses how visual elements and presentation can enhance the reader's experience and set the tone for the content. This insight underscores the idea that great writing is not just about words but also about how those words are presented.
"the people who wanted to write that came to him. So I think when Malcolm Gladwell, I don't know him, I don't know his process, maybe he'll go on this podcast at some point, but my guess is when ..."
Editing: The Heart of Writing
Brie shares her perspective on the editing process, emphasizing its critical role in crafting resonant writing. She discusses her personal editing techniques, including the creation of a 'Darlings' document for cherished but unused content. This segment highlights the value of feedback and the iterative nature of writing, encouraging writers to embrace the editing phase as a path to authenticity.
"mood or mindset. And no shade on Substack, I think it's doing an amazing thing for the internet, but I kind of lament that they all look the same. I'm like, "What is the wrapper around this thin..."
Self-Reflection in Writing
Brie explores the relationship between self-reflection and writing, likening the process to listening to one's inner voice. She discusses the importance of understanding personal feelings and thoughts to enhance writing authenticity. This segment emphasizes the need for writers to engage in self-examination and critique, drawing parallels to sports and performance coaching as a means of improvement.
"about turning the dial up on the inner voice. To me, writing is very much just a practice in listening to myself and trying to put the microphone close to things that I think should get more atte..."
Learning from Experience
Brie draws parallels between writing and sports, explaining how reviewing past performances can improve skills. She discusses the comfort of being critiqued and the value of mentorship in honing one's craft. This segment emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and continuous improvement in writing through feedback and reflection.
"that's part of the enthusiasm of being edited is just getting comfortable being critiqued. I have a musician friend who's the same way, who's just been like, "Reps, coach. Yeah, doesn't sound ri..."
Cultivating Your Unique Voice
In this segment, Brie discusses the challenge of translating personal emotions into writing, contrasting her natural speaking voice with her written style. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity and the need to connect with readers on a human level, rather than resorting to a 'teacher voice' that lacks personality. This highlights the significance of finding and nurturing one's unique writing voice.
"Something same thing for me happens when I translate from my brain into my hand, is it comes out kind of in a teacher voice or something, where I'm trying to be like, I don't know, be really exp..."
Writing for a Real Audience
Brie critiques the trend of writing for an abstract audience, advocating for a more personal approach. She shares insights on the importance of understanding who the reader is and what they need from the writing. This segment underscores the value of intimacy in writing, encouraging writers to connect with their audience on a deeper level.
"talk about reading a lot. I think that you need to be careful about the influences that you're pulling from and moving towards funkiness, or just things that certain writers do that you want to ..."
The Art of Taste in Writing
Brie introduces her concept of 'taste' in writing, inspired by a conversation with a CEO who included taste in their hiring criteria. She explores the slippery nature of the term and how it can be defined through collective discussion. This segment sets the stage for a deeper exploration of taste and its significance in writing and creativity.
"end of the page. What I'm reacting to in that story of your friend is she was so aware of you, you were inside that story with her. There was no note unless you were reading it, it'd be purposel..."
Defining Taste
Brie elaborates on her piece about taste, discussing its structure and inspiration from Susan Sontag's work. She reflects on the challenges of defining taste and the collaborative effort involved in curating ideas. This segment highlights the complexity of taste and its relevance in both personal and professional contexts.
"Iconic idea here. Iconic idea here. We have to talk about your taste piece. Oh yeah, that's a great piece. Because this is the section of the show. Out of all the things you've written, this is ..."
Training Your Taste
In this segment, Brie emphasizes the importance of recognizing personal preferences in cultivating taste. She discusses the need to differentiate between societal expectations and individual likes and dislikes, encouraging listeners to tune into their internal responses. This segment reinforces the idea that developing taste is a personal journey that requires self-awareness and honesty.
"Yes. So this format is just stolen with pride from Susan Sontag. She has a famous essay called Notes on Camp, and it's the exact same format where she's like, "This is a slippery term. I don't r..."
The Emotional Landscape of Taste
Brie discusses the significance of recognizing what you love and hate in cultivating taste, drawing from George Saunders' concept of a positive-negative meter. She emphasizes the importance of being aware of personal preferences and how this awareness can lead to a deeper understanding of one's emotional landscape and choices.
"Very much so. I guess this is going to be the meme of the whole thing, it's just listening to what's going on inside you. But this is in the taste piece too, but this idea comes from George Saun..."
Editing as a Reflection of Taste
Brie compares the editing process to cultivating taste, explaining how both involve evaluating and refining choices. She highlights the necessity of articulating one's preferences and the challenges of defining what feels right, emphasizing that both processes require time and introspection to achieve clarity and improvement.
"appreciate more and see the world differently. Yeah. Why did you use the word appreciate? Because there's a set of things that I don't have great taste in, fashion is one of them. And I love when ..."
The Emergence of Style in Writing
In this segment, Brie reflects on the importance of articulating one's emotional landscape in writing. She discusses how the process of writing helps clarify thoughts and feelings, and the challenge of finding the right words to express complex ideas, emphasizing the value of writing as a tool for self-understanding.
"things or make more beautiful things. So I really liked that. Yeah, I'm thinking of the New Yorker again, because Harold was so bad at articulating this. There was just no style guide. There was..."
Finding Inspiration in Unexpected Places
Brie shares her thoughts on drawing inspiration from both highbrow and lowbrow sources, including children's literature and clever naming in science. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing the value in diverse influences and how they can enrich one's writing and creative process.
"What are some of the strange places that you've looked to cultivate taste for your own writing or to maybe even pull inspiration? Because for example, I think Captain Underpants is genius. Absol..."
The Role of Critics vs. Curmudgeons
Brie contrasts the roles of critics and curmudgeons in the editing process, advocating for the importance of having supportive critics who appreciate and elevate ideas. She discusses how a positive approach to feedback fosters creativity and excellence, drawing parallels to notable figures like Steve Jobs.
"another word I aspire to in writing. And I think the New Yorker does a great job. Clever is one of those things that is really nice to be a little bit clever and so annoying when somebody tries t..."
Funding a Culture of Excellence
Brie explains the necessity of investing time and resources into creating a culture of excellence in writing and creativity. She emphasizes that achieving high-quality outcomes requires commitment and funding for the final touches, using examples from her experiences at Stripe and the importance of prioritizing quality over speed.
"I feel like there's a Steve Jobs thing here. I don't know what it is, but I think a lot of people look at who Steve was and then they say, "I'm not going to think anything is good enough. I have..."
The Impact of Fiction on Nonfiction Writing
Brie discusses how her experience with fiction writing influences her nonfiction work, highlighting the importance of narrative control and audience engagement. She reflects on the personal fulfillment of writing fiction and how it shapes her approach to real-world topics, emphasizing the value of individual contributions in collaborative environments.
"I wonder if this is your experience writing some of your great pieces. They take a while. Yeah. I've been thinking about the Steve stuff a lot now that we have the headset. And every time a new ..."
The Evolution of Ideas
In this segment, Brie reflects on how writing leads to personal growth and the evolution of ideas. She emphasizes the need to revisit and refine thoughts over time, suggesting that stepping away from writing can provide clarity and depth to one's understanding.
"And then sort of another thing in conflict of this that I've been thinking a lot about is my colleague Patrick O'Shaughnessy is always like, "If it works, it works fast." And just like if it's f..."
The Dual Nature of Creativity
Brie contrasts two types of creativity: explaining existing concepts versus introducing new ideas. She identifies herself as more of an 'explainer,' focusing on curating and articulating observations rather than claiming originality, which shapes her approach to writing.
"It is the sludge just getting junk and junk and junk out there. And it's funny, because my median second when I'm writing is, "Oh, I am doing such a bad job." And then you know when it hits me, ..."
The Importance of Observation
Brie discusses the significance of keen observation in writing, drawing inspiration from figures like Joan Didion. She expresses her desire to actively metabolize her surroundings and ideas, emphasizing that noticing details is crucial for effective writing.
"I don't meet a lot of people who have a combination of being able to observe well like you do, and have the patience to nurture a good observation and be able to write the personal component. I ..."