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Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine
36 segments available
A true honor to speak with Jung Chang. She is the author of Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China (sold 15+ million copies worldwide) and Mao: The Unknown Story. We discuss: * what it was like growing up during the Cultural Revolution as the daughter of a denounced official * why the CCP continues to worship the biggest mass murderer in human history. * how exactly Communist totalitarianism was able to subjugate a billion people * why Chinese leaders like Xi and Deng who suffered from the Cultural Revolution don't condemn Mao * how Mao starved and killed 40 million people during The Great Leap Forward in order to exchange food for Soviet weapons Wild Swans is the most moving book I've ever read. It was a real privilege to speak with its author. 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/jung-chang * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jung-chang-living-through-cultural-revolution-and/id1516093381?i=1000636931465 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4XJRFIvfRetdzq3pffmMUL?si=FGzMVzV1QfSbZl522jD5_g * Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Growing up during Cultural Revolution 00:15:58 - Could officials have overthrown Mao? 00:34:09 - Great Leap Forward 00:48:12 - Modern support of Mao 01:03:24 - Life as peasant 01:21:30 - Psychology of communist society
Segments Timeline
Growing Up in the Shadow of Mao
Jung Chang shares her harrowing experiences growing up in China during the Cultural Revolution. She recounts the arrest and torture of her father for opposing Mao's policies, the immense pressure on her mother to denounce him, and the brutal public humiliation they faced. This segment highlights the psychological impact of living under a totalitarian regime and the personal sacrifices made by her family.
"and my father spoke up against Mouse policies he was arrested tortured driven inane and my mother was under tremendous pressure to denounce my father she refused and my mother was made to KNE on broke..."
The Cultural Revolution's Impact
In this segment, Jung Chang discusses the Cultural Revolution's devastating effects on Chinese society, including the closure of schools and the destruction of cultural institutions. She reflects on her family's struggles, her forced exile to the Himalayas, and her experiences as a peasant and Barefoot doctor. This narrative illustrates the harsh realities faced by millions during this tumultuous period.
"changu age 92 my family was scattered and I was exiled to the edge of the Himalayas and worked as a peasant and then as a Barefoot doctor which was a doctor basically without any training because ma h..."
The Desire to Write
Jung Chang reveals her lifelong passion for writing, which persisted despite the oppressive environment in China. She recounts her first attempts at poetry and the fear of persecution that stifled her creativity. This segment emphasizes the importance of self-expression and the challenges faced by writers under totalitarian regimes.
"1978 um I there was a national exam to to select the people to go abroad for the first time under communist rule going abroad was based on on the academic basis and so I did very well at the exam so s..."
The Awakening of Consciousness
In this poignant segment, Jung Chang reflects on her gradual awakening to the realities of Mao's regime. She discusses the psychological conditioning that prevented her from questioning Mao until her late teens and the moment she began to connect the dots regarding his responsibility for the suffering in China. This exploration of her internal struggle provides insight into the effects of propaganda and indoctrination.
"writing but the desire to write never left me so in the following years when I was working as a peasant and as a Barefoot doctor as a Ste worker and the electrician and when I was spreading manure on ..."
The Price of Dissent
Jung Chang shares the tragic story of her father's criticism of the Communist Party and the consequences he faced. She explains how he attempted to voice his dissent through official channels, believing in the system's mechanisms. This segment highlights the dangers of speaking out against a totalitarian regime and the personal toll it takes on families.
"growing up there in terms of the psychology of living in a totalitarian system you mentioned in the book that until very late you could not even bring yourself to question ma despite seeing the conseq..."
Mao's Unthinkable Regime
In this segment, Jung Chang discusses the paradox of Mao's regime, which stifled rebellion despite China's history of uprisings. She explores how Mao instilled a culture of fear and obedience, making dissent unthinkable. This analysis sheds light on the psychological and societal mechanisms that allowed such a regime to persist.
"never D to question ma um and then I remember very well 1976 I had learned a little English and a friend showed me a copy of news week and there was an article about Ma and there were two little pictu..."
Mao's Totalitarian Control
In this segment, Jung Chang explores how Mao established a totalitarian regime that suppressed dissent and controlled society at every level. She contrasts Mao's methods with previous rulers, emphasizing the unprecedented organization and grassroots control of the Communist Party. Chang discusses the psychological tactics employed by Mao to maintain power and the role of ordinary citizens in perpetuating the regime's control.
"happen well that's a very good question that is the key of a communist Society of a totalitarian Society is the the control the organization I mean neither the Emperors nor any other rulers under the ..."
The Role of Violence in the Cultural Revolution
Jung Chang delves into the use of violence during the Cultural Revolution, explaining how Mao manipulated young people to unleash their destructive instincts. She describes the chaos and terror that ensued, detailing how Mao maintained control through fear and the military. This segment highlights the psychological manipulation at play and the tragic consequences of Mao's policies on Chinese society.
"control how how is that even possible the thing is that in the cultural revolution for example ma use the young people and use the the bad things in their nature they're prone to violence did destruct..."
Mao's Legacy and the Cultural Revolution
In this segment, Jung Chang reflects on Mao's legacy and the motivations behind the Cultural Revolution. She discusses how Mao's policies led to widespread famine and suffering, and how his paranoia about losing power drove him to purge his political rivals. Chang provides insight into the internal dynamics of the Communist Party and the lengths to which Mao went to secure his position.
"doing this is also um an interesting example where you know you have these cases where whether it's Stalin in Russia or ma in China where when the Tyrant dies you know the system automatically improve..."
The Ambush and the Rise of Liu Shaoqi
Jung Chang recounts the political maneuvering of Liu Shaoqi, who sought to challenge Mao's authority during the Great Leap Forward. She explains how Liu's popularity among party officials posed a threat to Mao, leading to a series of purges. This segment illustrates the intricate power struggles within the Communist Party and the consequences of dissent against Mao's regime.
"to the Great Famine of nearly you know around 40 million deaths of the people was so unpopular that his number two Lea Chi then spoke up against him again there was no way even for mes number two to t..."
Understanding the Great Leap Forward's Tragedy
In this poignant segment, Jung Chang discusses the catastrophic impact of the Great Leap Forward, which resulted in the deaths of approximately 40 million people. She emphasizes the human suffering behind the statistics, detailing the agonizing process of starvation and the devastation experienced by families and communities. This segment aims to make the historical tragedy more tangible and relatable.
"power it's confusing from the outside of why at that time you don't um if you can't control the Army because Lin B is going to control of it at at that point you don't I don't know try to tell the peo..."
The Human Cost of the Great Leap Forward
Chang recounts the devastating impact of the Great Leap Forward, where approximately 40 million people died from starvation. She shares personal anecdotes of witnessing starvation and suffering, emphasizing the tragedy of individual lives lost and the broader implications of Mao's policies on Chinese society.
"so maybe for a context it'll be helpful first to start talking about the Great lead forward the number you gave was around 40 million people and this this becomes a statistic for people you just think..."
The Paradox of Mao's Legacy
In this segment, Chang explores the perplexing admiration for Mao among some Chinese leaders, despite their personal experiences of suffering during the Cultural Revolution. She discusses the psychological and socio-political factors that contribute to this continued reverence for a figure responsible for immense suffering.
"village he was he came back um very seriously famished and suffering from this illness called animals which was because of lack of food um and um oh yes and I even my family and we all and we all dran..."
Mao's Enduring Influence in Modern China
Chang analyzes why Mao Zedong remains a revered figure in contemporary China, despite his brutal history. She discusses the lack of alternative narratives in education and the regime's promotion of Mao's image, which has led to a generation growing up with a distorted understanding of history.
"of the mouth Europe but not really I mean well everybody was different but I mean there were more indoctrinated people than others under the same indoctrination system I mean maybe he was just not he ..."
The Challenge of Historical Truth in China
In this concluding segment, Chang addresses the challenges faced by those seeking to uncover the truth about China's past. She highlights the regime's censorship and the reluctance of families to share their experiences, resulting in a generation that lacks awareness of the atrocities committed under Mao's rule.
"know unlike any time in Chinese history and before now there was confusion ISM you you could have something to hang on to and then there was Ma malism I mean which didn't didn't didn't obviously openl..."
Western Academia's Defense of Mao
Chang critiques the Western academic community's defense of Mao, referencing a collection of criticisms against her biography. She notes that while some academics acknowledge Mao's atrocities, they often use excusatory language, similar to justifications seen in discussions about other totalitarian regimes.
"then uh still believing in well I mean in the West in the American universities yeah there were a lot of marxist I mean I you know a lot of people if they're interested in the subject I mean they come..."
Illusions of Communist Regimes
Chang explores the illusions held by some Western intellectuals regarding communist regimes. She reflects on how these beliefs persist despite the overwhelming evidence of atrocities, suggesting a disconnect between ideology and reality.
"mean I mean the West would certainly not put off the this um put off a potential M success yeah I'm glad you brought that up actually because I read that book actually in preparation for this intervie..."
Denouncing Mao: A Missed Opportunity
Chang discusses Deng Xiaoping's reluctance to denounce Mao despite personal suffering during the Cultural Revolution. She argues that Deng's failure to dissociate from Mao could have been a pivotal moment for the Communist Party, reflecting on the potential consequences of such a stance.
"you talk about this what what do you think explains the Western uh some parts of the left who want to find excuses for these regimes whether it's Venezuela or whether Edgard snow Edward Snow writing h..."
The Dangers of Historical Denial
Chang emphasizes the risks associated with denying Mao's crimes, drawing parallels to the Soviet Union's experience. She discusses how acknowledging historical atrocities is crucial for the legitimacy of any governing regime, particularly in the context of the Communist Party's survival.
"they they they don't care to know the facts and also I think probably some people think oh China is always been awful you know under the empress and so on and so somehow the orientals must feel differ..."
Mao's Pragmatism and Control
Chang analyzes Mao's pragmatic approach to communism, suggesting that his policies were designed to consolidate power and control over the population. She explains how collectivization served his interests by making it easier to manage the peasant population.
"the real truth even in um in the case of Stalin in Russia there was a famous New York Times Reporter who was doing the Russian coverage for the New York Times and there would reports would come in abo..."
Life in the Communes
Chang shares her firsthand experiences working in communes during the Cultural Revolution. She describes the harsh conditions, strict controls, and the lack of food, illustrating the oppressive environment that characterized peasant life under Mao's regime.
"countryside when he comes back into Power after the cultural revolution how I from the outside I don't understand how he uh doesn't immediately denounce Ma what the horrible things he did how how did ..."
The Mechanisms of Oppression
Chang discusses how the commune system was designed to suppress dissent among peasants during the Great Leap Forward. She explains the control mechanisms in place that prevented uprisings and ensured compliance, highlighting the regime's fear of rebellion.
"otherwise it doesn't make sense to collectivize farms and to close down shops and it also necessitates the uh purges because communism is a science it has to work and if it doesn't work there must be ..."
Life in the Communes
In this segment, Jung Chang shares her personal experiences working in communes during the Cultural Revolution. She describes the harsh working conditions, the lack of food, and the oppressive control exercised by the commune over every aspect of life, including travel and marriage. This vivid account illustrates the dehumanizing effects of Mao's policies on the peasant population and the systemic control that prevented any form of rebellion.
"you know the what did say the great advantage of collectivization the communes is easier to control is it so this was um not just the ideology abstract ideology but it's for you know for what he wante..."
The Great Leap Forward's Catastrophe
Jung Chang elaborates on the disastrous consequences of the Great Leap Forward, detailing how Mao's obsession with steel production led to widespread famine. She explains how the focus on backyard furnaces diverted resources away from agriculture, exacerbating food shortages. This segment underscores the economic ignorance behind Mao's policies and the tragic outcomes for millions of Chinese peasants.
"the famine this is how m ensured that the peasants didn't rise up in arms because the control from the commune I mean there was a thing and they every now and then the regime would would issue the sti..."
Mao's Ignorance and the Famine
In this segment, Jung Chang discusses Mao's misguided economic strategies that contributed to the Great Famine. She highlights how Mao's decisions to export food while neglecting the needs of the population led to the deaths of millions. This analysis reveals the disconnect between Mao's ambitions and the harsh realities faced by the Chinese people during this period.
"I think some some a few tens of thousands of communes I mean imagine this highly concentrated organization yeah so people were not no longer individual Farmers yeah like um like what they were before ..."
The Role of Sparrows in Famine
Jung Chang recounts the absurdity of Mao's campaign against sparrows, which he believed were a threat to food supplies. She explains how this misguided policy not only harmed the sparrow population but also disrupted the ecological balance, leading to further agricultural devastation. This segment illustrates the irrationality of Mao's policies and their catastrophic effects on Chinese agriculture.
"traditionally we didn't we never produced enough food to feed the population the Emperors banned food export and bought a lot of food into China I mean so traditionally China was a food importer for a..."
The Aftermath of Mao's Policies
In this segment, Jung Chang reflects on the long-term consequences of Mao's policies, including the widespread starvation and economic failure that persisted even after his death. She discusses how Mao's legacy continues to influence Chinese society and politics, despite the suffering it caused. This analysis provides insight into the enduring impact of Mao's ideology on contemporary China.
"don't have death you know we and the Earth can't contain us you know this seemingly philosophical things were were taken at face value by some academics uh you know but what he really he said these th..."
Childhood Memories of Steel Production
Jung Chang shares her childhood memories of contributing to steel production during the Great Leap Forward. She describes the absurdity of children collecting scrap metal for backyard furnaces and the wastefulness of these efforts. This personal narrative highlights the misguided priorities of Mao's regime and the impact of these policies on the younger generation.
"revolution and his his tragic death and then you also talk in the book about how these peasants Not only was all this grain being exported which caused them to starve but they weren't even allowed to ..."
The Futility of Backyard Furnaces
In this segment, Jung Chang discusses the inefficiency of the backyard furnaces established during the Great Leap Forward. She explains how these furnaces produced mostly useless steel, wasting resources and labor. This critique of Mao's industrial policies underscores the economic folly that contributed to the suffering of millions.
"know couldn't go off I mean to feed that furnace consumed everything I mean in my Village I mean they we we struggled every day to find a little fuel with you know fast forward to 1960s and because th..."
Western Misunderstandings of Mao
Jung Chang addresses the misconceptions held by some Westerners regarding Mao's policies and their outcomes. She reflects on how certain individuals admired Mao's industrial strategies without understanding the human cost. This segment critiques the romanticization of Mao's legacy in the West and emphasizes the need for a more nuanced understanding of his impact on China.
"ignorance about the economy oh the other thing about M ignorance was because food was so important and because sparrows eat food so he ordered the whole population to D to to um to to kill sparrows so..."
Disillusionment with Western Capitalism
In this segment, Jung Chang explores the disillusionment with Western capitalism that led some to idealize Mao's regime. She discusses how the failures of capitalism prompted a search for alternatives, resulting in a misguided admiration for communist ideologies. This analysis sheds light on the complex perceptions of Mao and communism in the context of global politics.
"million debts but the thing is you know in the west I I indirect know somebody who was a was a steel magnet it was a great steel producer and he thought M's um steel bankard furnaces were brilliant id..."
Kissinger's Engagement with Mao
Jung Chang critiques Henry Kissinger's approach to China during Mao's rule, arguing that his fascination with Mao's power led to misguided policies. She discusses the implications of Kissinger's actions for U.S.-China relations and the legacy of Mao's regime. This segment provides a critical perspective on the historical interactions between Western leaders and communist China.
"rejected as as fantasy yeah speaking of which tomorrow I'm interviewing Neil Ferguson who has written a biograph volume one of his biography of Kissinger and volume two which will cover this period wi..."
Psychological Warfare in Communist China
Jung Chang delves into the psychological tactics employed by Mao to control the population, particularly through self-criticism and public confession. She explains how these practices were designed to humiliate individuals and create distrust among citizens, preventing organized opposition. This segment reveals the depth of Mao's psychological manipulation and its lasting effects on Chinese society, illustrating the pervasive fear and division instilled in the populace.
"country May grow into a manace to the world I mean that's another matter yeah it's a challenge that the world needs to face now but it's certainly not to make um to to it's not certainly not to to say..."
The Dilemma of Loyalty and Betrayal
In this segment, Chang discusses the moral dilemmas faced by individuals during the Cultural Revolution, where loyalty to family and friends was often pitted against the demands of the Communist Party. She describes how the system forced people to betray their loved ones to avoid persecution, highlighting the devastating impact of such psychological manipulation. This exploration of loyalty and betrayal underlines the destructive nature of totalitarian regimes.
"in China I wasn't denounced but we all had to attend criticism and self-criticism meetings I mean it really is stirs up some very basic discomfort and um upset unsettling upset feelings if you have to..."
The Cult of Mao and Its Origins
Jung Chang examines the roots of Mao's cult of personality and the widespread support for communist ideology in China. She discusses historical factors that contributed to this phenomenon, including the influence of traditional Chinese beliefs and the role of the Red Army in establishing Mao's power. This segment provides insight into the complexities of Chinese society's acceptance of communism and the enduring legacy of Mao's leadership.
"ask M to allow his son to join him so he could look after his son he and his wife who was so heartbroken seeing his son she wanted to kill herself anyway um D had to preface his appeal with I'm afraid..."
The Cultural Revolution vs. Modern Protests
In this segment, Chang contrasts the horrors of the Cultural Revolution with contemporary social movements in the West, such as the BLM protests. She argues that the scale and impact of the Cultural Revolution were far more devastating, resulting in widespread fear and destruction in Chinese society. This comparison highlights the unique historical context of China's past and the profound consequences of Mao's regime on its people.
"mean you it's the result is you are in a tremendous um dilemma yeah of either sacrificing you your family and um and other people I which is another way of breaking these people I mean that these are ..."