
51 segments available
In this lecture, military historian Sarah Paine explains how Russia—and specifically Stalin—completely derailed China’s rise, slowing them down for over a century. This lecture was particularly interesting to me because, in my opinion, the Chinese Civil War is 1 of the top 3 most important events of the 20th century. And to understand why it transpired as it did, you need to understand Stalin’s role in the whole thing. 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/sarah-paine-russo-chinese * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sarah-paine-how-russia-sabotaged-chinas-rise/id1516093381?i=1000734455820 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6Iz0Fi2wxLDpSEyfHft01E?si=quCUygx8Txq5r8VC1xZUJg 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 * Mercury helps you run your business better. It’s the banking platform we use for the podcast — we love that we can see our cash balance, AR, and AP all in one place. Join us (and over 200,000 other entrepreneurs) at https://mercury.com * Labelbox scrutinizes public benchmarks at the single data-row level to probe what’s really being evaluated. Using this knowledge, they can generate custom training data for hill climbing existing benchmarks, or design new benchmarks from scratch. Learn more at https://labelbox.com/dwarkesh To sponsor a future episode, visit https://dwarkesh.com/advertise. 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 – How Russia took advantage of China's weakness 00:23:46 – Reversal of the balance of power 00:34:39 – Russian imperialism 00:46:10 – China’s and Russia's existential problems 01:05:42 – Q&A: Sino-Soviet split 01:23:29 – Stalin's lessons from WW2
Sarah Paine introduces the historical dynamics between Russia and China, emphasizing the significance of their relationship from the mid-19th century to the mid-20th century. She discusses how Russia exploited China's weaknesses during this period, setting the stage for understanding the broader implications of their interactions.
"People are worried about whether there's going to be an enduring relationship with China and Russia. If you look at this picture, the relations look more glacial than cordial and the little one's..."
Paine delves into the Opium Wars, illustrating how Russia took advantage of China's internal turmoil and external pressures from Western powers. She explains the detrimental treaties that ceded significant Chinese territory to Russia, highlighting the long-term consequences for China's sovereignty.
"China and Russia discovered each other late in their histories. It was the early part of their last dynasties when the Russians were after fur, very lucrative in those days. That brings them out ..."
In this segment, Paine discusses the First Sino-Japanese War and how Russia's intervention under the guise of support ultimately led to further territorial losses for China. She outlines the Triple Intervention and its implications for China's sovereignty and regional power dynamics.
"series of rebellions that just about wrecked them. The Russians take advantage of all of this. Remember the second rule of continental empires? No great power neighbors. The Russians repeatedly de..."
Paine examines the Bolshevik rise to power and their strategic communication with China, particularly through the Karakhan Manifesto. She highlights the initial promises made to China and how these were later diluted, revealing the complexities of Sino-Soviet relations during this tumultuous period.
"So in the First Sino-Japanese War, Japan trounces China, boots them from their tributary in Korea. Then the Japanese also want some territory on the Liaodong Peninsula. The Chinese go to the Russi..."
This segment focuses on the United Front between the Chinese Nationalists and Communists, orchestrated with Russian support. Paine discusses how this alliance ultimately led to a massacre of Communists by Chiang Kai-shek, showcasing the tragic consequences of foreign intervention in China's internal politics.
"of strategic communication. The Russians really understand other people's emotional life and what sets them at odds with each other. They know just how to serve out the propaganda that sets peopl..."
Paine explores the implications of the Russo-Japanese War on China's railway system and territorial integrity. She explains how Russia's military actions delayed China's rise and contributed to its ongoing struggles with foreign powers.
"My fourth example of derailing China's rise concerns the First United Front between the Chinese Nationalists and Chinese Communist Party. Here's the leader of the Nationalist Party and also leade..."
In this segment, Paine discusses Stalin's strategic maneuvers during the 1930s, including his manipulation of the Chinese Civil War to weaken both the Nationalists and Communists. She highlights the devastating impact of these strategies on China's development and stability.
"There's a railway system in Manchuria. We're going to talk rails. The Russo-Japanese War of 1904 and 1905, Japan wins it and gets from Russia, which built all these things in Chinese territory, ..."
Paine analyzes the outcomes of the Yalta Agreement, focusing on how Stalin's actions in Manchuria and Mongolia further derailed China's rise. She emphasizes the significant territorial losses and the long-term effects on Sino-Russian relations.
"millions of refugees, that does indeed derail China's rise yet again. Next example. Per the Yalta agreement, Russia finally gets into the war in Asia. About time. In the very final weeks, in thi..."
In the final segment, Paine discusses the Korean War and its implications for China. She explains how Stalin's strategy aimed to weaken China while simultaneously tying it closer to Russia, ultimately impacting China's international standing and development.
"So talk about derailing somebody, that would do it. To be fair to the Russians, they did, albeit slowly, turn over all this Japanese-stockpiled military equipment in Manchuria to the Communists. ..."
Paine elaborates on Mao's realization of Stalin's intentions to prevent a strong China. This segment captures Mao's grievances against Stalin and his ambitions for leadership in international communism, setting the stage for the eventual Sino-Soviet split.
"So what's not to love about fighting to the last Chinese in Korea? Stalin thinks this is great and it's going to retard Chinese development. Also because China is so isolated by this war, it has ..."
This segment focuses on the tensions between Mao and Khrushchev, highlighting their conflicting ideologies and policies. Paine discusses how Khrushchev's approach to de-Stalinization and peaceful coexistence clashed with Mao's radical agenda, leading to further estrangement between China and the Soviet Union.
"Mao has a growing list of gripes. It's not only that he didn't like Stalin's tributary treatment, but also Mao thinks, with his resume, that he should become the leader of international communism..."
Paine examines the competition between China and Russia during the Vietnam War, detailing how both nations sought to influence North Vietnam. This segment illustrates the complexities of their relationship and the underlying tensions that fueled their rivalry.
"to get credit for it. So all that's going on. Now, Khrushchev has his own gripes about the Chinese. He looks around at the United States. The United States has got basing all over the world. Its a..."
In this segment, Paine outlines the factors contributing to the reversal of power between China and Russia. She discusses China's development of its atomic weapon and the subsequent territorial disputes with Russia, marking a significant shift in their relationship and the balance of power in the region.
"Step one for China is getting its own atomic weapon, which it does in 1964, so that it can get itself free of Soviet bondage. In 1964, after they detonated that bomb, Mao goes, "Okay, there are t..."
Paine describes the decline of the Soviet Union under leaders like Brezhnev and Gorbachev. This segment highlights the economic struggles and political instability that plagued Russia, contrasting it with China's rapid growth and reform under Deng Xiaoping.
"Imagine if this country had to put those kinds of forces on our long Canadian and Mexican borders. It'd be bankrupting. Their economy was and remains a fraction of ours. But this breaking up of t..."
This segment focuses on Gorbachev's attempts at reform and the resulting territorial losses for Russia. Paine explains how these changes led to the disintegration of the Soviet Empire and the emergence of new challenges for Russia.
"Now for this dystopian alternate universe of Russian decline. Here on the left is Leonid Brezhnev, who apparently had a stroke in 1976 that permanently impaired his thinking and whose death in 1..."
Paine discusses Russia's historical imperialism and its impact on Eastern Europe. This segment illustrates how Russia's actions during and after World War II shaped the political landscape of the region, leading to a legacy of distrust and conflict.
"relied as much as 55% on oil or energy revenues. So piggy banks are going to shrink if oil prices aren't doing very well. Gorbachev repeatedly said, "You know, we can't live this way anymore." He ..."
In this segment, Paine outlines the Soviet template for establishing control in Eastern Europe post-World War II. She details the methods used to suppress dissent and impose communist regimes, highlighting the long-term consequences of these actions on regional stability.
"but they don't measure it in wealth. Their wealth has always been much less than their Western neighbors, although they often confiscate the wealth of other people. What they measure their strengt..."
Paine concludes with a discussion on the narrative of Soviet imperialism and the contradictions within it. This segment emphasizes the disparity between the Soviet Union's self-image and the reality of its oppressive actions in Eastern Europe, shedding light on the historical context of current geopolitical tensions.
"The people who made all this happen include this charmer, some of the most toxic people from the Soviet Union. Andrey Vyshinsky goes to Romania, lucky Romanians. He was running the show trials th..."
In this segment, Paine reveals the contradiction in Soviet ideology, where Russia portrayed itself as anti-imperialist while practicing imperialism in Eastern Europe. She explains how the narrative of democracy was a facade, masking the reality of dictatorship and oppression. This discussion sheds light on the historical context of Russian expansionism.
"But the Russians want to take advantage of the absolute turmoil that wars cause. Wars also often lead to war economies where you've got a lot of centralized government control to run the war effo..."
Paine elaborates on the regional strategies employed by Russia, including ethnic cleansing and territorial adjustments in Eastern Europe and Asia. She discusses the significance of places like Kaliningrad and Moldova, and how Russia's national identity is intertwined with its imperial ambitions. This segment provides insight into the geopolitical maneuvers of Russia.
"They're doing this right as Western imperialists are giving up their colonies. Yet there’s this big lie, the big fiction that the Russians are somehow nice guys. They're using democratic forms. T..."
This segment explores the ideological underpinnings of Russian expansionism, from the concept of the 'Third Rome' to the modern-day implications for Putin's regime. Paine discusses how historical narratives shape national identity and influence contemporary policies, particularly in relation to the Orthodox Church and communism.
"or if it can take a whole thing, good for them. So Russian national identity is not only about empire, territorial extent. It also has some big ideas attached to it, an ideology that somehow this ..."
Paine outlines the existential threats facing Russia, including military defeats and the potential for a Chinese takeover of Siberia. She discusses the historical context of Russian vulnerability and how current geopolitical tensions exacerbate these fears. This segment highlights the precarious position of Russia in the face of external pressures.
"That's where his little focus is. Russia has a nightmare scenario. They don't always win these wars. They lose quite often. The Mongol yoke or the Yellow Peril, their terminology, not mine, is t..."
In this segment, Paine contrasts China's historical view of itself as the center of civilization with its current geopolitical strategies. She discusses the implications of Confucianism on Chinese governance and how the Communist Party navigates its legitimacy amidst economic challenges. This analysis provides a deeper understanding of China's motivations on the global stage.
"So if he keeps the game up, he may well wind up with a Chinese yoke, and his nightmare will be there for him. The Chinese also have their own big ideas, not religious ideas or empire, but about ..."
Paine examines the potential collapse of the Communist Party's legitimacy in China, drawing parallels with the Soviet Union's downfall. She discusses the fears of civil unrest and the historical lessons learned from Gorbachev's reforms. This segment emphasizes the fragility of authoritarian regimes in the face of ideological crises.
"aren't going anywhere anymore. Good old Xi, he doesn't have a marketable ideology anymore. What's really scary is that Confucianism had just been this enduring feature of China—dynasties came and..."
This segment focuses on the lessons China has learned from the Soviet experience, particularly regarding the handling of dissent and ethnic minorities. Paine discusses the ongoing repression of the Uyghurs and the strategies employed by the Chinese Communist Party to maintain control. This analysis highlights the intersection of nationalism and authoritarianism.
"economic theories on which communism is based, how do you justify one-party rule? The Communist Party has tried to soldier on without solving that problem. The Chinese have learned a great deal f..."
Paine discusses the Chinese Communist Party's prioritization of stability over individual freedoms, particularly in the context of historical trauma from the Cultural Revolution. She explores how this focus shapes current policies and the implications for governance in China. This segment provides insight into the internal dynamics of the Chinese state.
"That helps explain some of Xi Jinping's growth-depressing choices that he's making. Gorbachev discovered when he tried to reform communism that democracy and communism just don't mix. If you give..."
In this segment, Paine analyzes how both Russia and China utilize nationalism to distract from domestic issues and consolidate power. She discusses the historical context of nationalism in China and its impact on minority relations. This discussion sheds light on the dangers of excessive nationalism in governance.
"them to prioritize stability over liberty. This brings a third problem. Democracy and communism don't mix and democracy and empire don't mix. In an Internet cell phone age, where people are much ..."
Paine warns about the dangers of military conflicts under Putin's leadership, contrasting it with the Soviet approach to proxy wars. She discusses the implications of Russia's aggressive military strategies and the potential for escalation. This segment highlights the precarious nature of current geopolitical tensions.
"It also impedes the de-escalation of unforeseen international dust-ups or crises. With Putin's latest adventures, one would assume that the Chinese have some real thoughts about what's going on n..."
This segment delves into Putin's motivations for territorial expansion, particularly in Ukraine, and the historical context of Russian imperialism. Paine discusses the implications of these ambitions for regional stability and the potential consequences for Russia's future. This analysis provides a critical perspective on current events.
"he has risen to power on a diet of hot wars. He comes to power in the early phase of the Second Chechen War, where he levels the Chechen capital of Grozny and leaves most of the rest of Chechnya ..."
Paine speculates on the future dynamics between China and Russia, considering their respective ambitions and vulnerabilities. She discusses the potential for conflict and cooperation, emphasizing the need for careful diplomacy. This segment provides a forward-looking perspective on international relations.
"Putin, when he works his magic the second time around in Ukraine in 2022, this is when the Finns and the Swedes decide neutrality's not going to cut it and they’ve got to join NATO. But when Puti..."
In this concluding segment, Paine reflects on the lessons learned from history as the world enters a new Cold War. She emphasizes the importance of strategic diplomacy to prevent conflict between major powers. This analysis underscores the complexities of contemporary geopolitics and the need for informed leadership.
"with a leadership that has not been chastened by surviving World War I, the Great Depression, and World War II. Which were the grownups who did a very effective job dealing with the early first C..."
Paine concludes by discussing the historical miscalculations of Russian leaders and their implications for current geopolitics. She draws parallels between past conflicts and present challenges, emphasizing the need for strategic foresight. This segment serves as a cautionary tale for contemporary leaders navigating international relations.
"Putin is just blowing through all of his assets in Ukraine to no purpose. That's how we fought and won the last Cold War. Putin, he's trying to do empire in the age of nationalism. It's a non-star..."
This segment examines whether the Sino-Soviet split was inevitable, even if Stalin had lived longer. Paine discusses the inherent grievances between the two nations and how dictatorships often lead to instability. The conversation reflects on the historical context of Stalin's leadership and the implications for future Russian leadership under Putin.
"desperately needed to face off Germany, which it does within the decade and loses. He is overthrown in part because of bread riots in St. Petersburg, because no foreign aid can get in, because he..."
Paine reflects on the significance of the Chinese Civil War as a pivotal event of the 20th century. She emphasizes the importance of understanding internal political developments in populous nations like China, India, and Nigeria. The segment highlights how historical perspectives can inform current geopolitical strategies.
"Japan tried this go-it-alone, my-way-or-the-highway strategy with China back in World War II, when China was a failed state, and it wrecked Japan. China now has a population that's a multiple of..."
In this segment, Paine recounts a critical episode from 1936 when Stalin intervened to prevent the execution of Chiang Kai-shek, emphasizing the strategic foresight behind his decision. This move allowed the Communists to gain prestige while maintaining a united front against Japan, showcasing Stalin's adeptness in geopolitical maneuvering.
"That's what I have to say about Sino-Soviet things. First question, I want to understand the role of ideology in the Sino-Soviet split. "
Paine discusses the ideological underpinnings of the Sino-Soviet split, questioning why shared communist beliefs did not prevent conflict. She explores the complexities of nationalism and power dynamics between the two nations, revealing how ideology can be overshadowed by territorial ambitions.
"First question, I want to understand the role of ideology in the Sino-Soviet split. These are the two major communist countries in the world. They have this big ideological, world-changing missio..."
This segment delves into the psychological and strategic aspects of dictators like Stalin, examining their ability to maintain power amidst chaos. Paine discusses the overlapping security agencies in Stalin's regime and how they contributed to his control, drawing comparisons to other historical dictators.
"I gave you all these bad things that Russia had done to China, which are not small things. Then isn't the problem with communism that the economics of it don't actually work? Fundamentally these t..."
Paine reflects on the unpredictability of historical outcomes and the complexities of geopolitical decision-making. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the motivations behind leaders' actions and the potential consequences of their decisions on global stability.
"There's another piece where it's just amazing, about the big lie. I don't know whether it was Stalin who said it, that if the lie is big enough, people will believe you. It's just so out there, ..."
In this segment, Paine speculates on the future of Sino-Russian relations, considering the complementary resources of both nations. She discusses the likelihood of conflict versus trade, emphasizing that economic interdependence may prevent direct confrontation despite geopolitical tensions.
"I want to understand Stalin's decisions in particular in the case of telling the Communists during the Chinese Civil War that they can't go below the Yangtze River, so that he can split up the C..."
Paine discusses the fragility of dictatorships and the potential for internal conflict following the death of a leader. She draws parallels between Stalin's regime and the current situation in Russia under Putin, highlighting the uncertainties that arise in authoritarian systems.
"But did Stalin as a communist think, "Okay at some point the whole world is going to be communist." He thought that he personally would be managing the whole world? Unclear. It's a long horizon. I..."
This segment emphasizes the importance of historical context in understanding current geopolitical dynamics. Paine reflects on how past events shape present-day relationships and the need for careful consideration of historical lessons in contemporary policy-making.
"or whatever happened to him that morning. If Stalin hadn't died, do you think a Sino-Soviet split was still inevitable? Yes, there wouldn't have been Khrushchev's secret speech. Obviously Stalin w..."
Paine discusses the implications of China's rise as a global power, particularly in relation to its internal political developments. She highlights the need for international attention on populous nations and the potential consequences of neglecting their political landscapes.
"as a major event, especially since World War II had just happened. If you were living in 1948 or 1949, you wouldn't think of this as the main thing happening in the world. But given that we know ..."
In this segment, Paine analyzes Stalin's strategic interventions during the Chinese Civil War, particularly his decision to spare Chiang Kai-shek. She discusses the long-term effects of these decisions on the balance of power in Asia and the Communist Party's eventual rise.
"something in Asia to counterbalance. But then when you get to the Chinese Civil War, Americans who've fought some big wars, they're looking at it saying, "It is not feasible for us to alter this ..."
Paine explores the nature of dictatorship and the psychological traits that enable leaders to maintain power. She discusses the importance of understanding the dynamics of power and control in authoritarian regimes, drawing insights from historical examples.
"There are dictators all over the world who stay in power for a long time. Do not dismiss their ability to stay in power. They're surfing quite a wave wherever they live, of people who butcher each..."
This segment reflects on the unpredictability of future conflicts between nations, particularly in the context of China and Russia. Paine emphasizes the need for careful analysis of current events and the potential for unforeseen consequences in international relations.
"It's just so much more wealth-creating, this alternate universe, but that's not where these continentalists are. There's still something a little under-explained about… Probably lots of things ar..."
Paine discusses the significance of technological advancement in shaping global power dynamics. She warns against neglecting innovation and research, emphasizing that technological leadership is crucial for maintaining a competitive edge in international relations.
"So you think you got it. But if you look at the future, how's this thing going to end with Xi Jinping and Putin? We don't know. Afterwards, you'll go, "Oh, something is profoundly stupid based on..."
In the concluding segment, Paine speculates on the future of Sino-Russian relations, considering the potential for conflict and cooperation. She discusses the complementary nature of their resources and the implications for global stability, emphasizing the importance of strategic foresight.
"They're too big to be finished off. Unless we do a nuclear war, then we might finish all of ourselves off. But the idea that there will be some sort of conflict between these two countries… I agr..."
This segment delves into Stalin's historical decisions regarding Japan and Germany, illustrating his reluctance to confront powerful adversaries. Paine explains how Stalin's choices during critical moments, such as the invasion of Manchuria, reflect a broader strategy of avoiding conflict with great powers. The discussion highlights the implications of these historical decisions on contemporary Sino-Russian relations.
"Does that look like the bromance ending? North Korea has for decades been in a very desperate position. That’s quite a bromance. But there's no risk of North Korea and China going to war. North K..."
Paine discusses Stalin's underestimation of Hitler's ambitions, drawing a parallel to current geopolitical tensions. She argues that Stalin's belief in British disinformation led to disastrous consequences, emphasizing the importance of recognizing threats. This segment serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of misjudging adversaries in international relations.
"Yeah, in Germany, he's trying to run the same script. He thinks it's going to work for him. That's what the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is about. Not remotely. He needed to read Mein Kampf to underst..."
In this segment, Paine introduces the concept of 'cooperative adversaries,' explaining how Russia may perceive China amidst its internal challenges. She contrasts the difficulties of dealing with a well-institutionalized adversary like Germany with the more manageable dynamics of China. This analysis sheds light on the complexities of the Russo-Chinese relationship and the potential for exploitation.
"and it just about wrecks him. But it works beautifully against Japan. It's just interesting to see. It makes sense why he thought it would work. When he's getting information that the Germans are ..."
Paine draws connections between historical alliances and contemporary geopolitics, particularly the relationship between Russia and China. She discusses the importance of strategic partnerships in countering adversaries and emphasizes the need for collaborative approaches to foreign policy. The segment concludes with a reflection on the significance of kindness and cooperation in international relations.
"An interesting connection to make between World War II and this Russo-Chinese relationship is that the way that we used Russia—as this reservoir of military men that we can just ship armaments t..."