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An inside look at how the New York Times builds product | Alex Hardiman (CPO, the New York Times)
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Alex Hardiman is Chief Product Officer at the New York Times, where she oversees the company’s news, cooking, games, audio and advertising products. Previously, Alex was Chief Product Officer at The Atlantic, and before that she was Head of News Products at Facebook. We discuss how engineers and product people work with writers to create impactful stories, how teams build the incredible visualizations and experiences for NYTimes.com, how product teams are structured within the New York Times, and the good and bad about working at a company like the New York Times versus a FAANG tech company. We also talk about the details behind the New York Times’s acquisition of Wordle and uncover what the Times is dreaming up for its product over the next 10 years. — Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-the-new-york — Where to find Alex Hardiman: • Twitter: https://twitter.com/alex_hardiman • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandrahardiman/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible: • Miro: https://miro.com/lenny • Athletic Greens: https://athleticgreens.com/lenny • Vanta: https://vanta.com/lenny — Referenced: • Jodi Kantor: https://www.nytimes.com/by/jodi-kantor • Wordle: https://www.nytimes.com/games/wordle/ • Wordle Is a Love Story: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/technology/wordle-word-game-creator.html • Josh Wardle on Twitter: https://twitter.com/powerlanguish • Eric Kim’s recipes: https://cooking.nytimes.com/ourcooks/eric-kim/ • Wirecutter: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/ • Framing Britney Spears: https://www.nytimes.com/article/framing-britney-spears.html • Hard Fork podcast: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/04/podcasts/hard-fork-technology.html • High Growth Handbook: Scaling Startups from 10 to 10,000 People: https://www.amazon.com/High-Growth-Handbook-Elad-Gil/dp/1732265100 • An Elegant Puzzle: Systems of Engineering Management: https://www.amazon.com/Elegant-Puzzle-Systems-Engineering-Management/dp/1732265186 • The Revolt of the Public and the Crisis of Authority in the New Millennium: https://www.amazon.com/Revolt-Public-Crisis-Authority-Millennium/dp/1732265143 • Giovanni’s Room: https://www.amazon.com/Giovannis-Room-James-Baldwin/dp/0345806565/r • The Daily podcast: https://www.nytimes.com/column/the-daily • The Wire on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-wire • Google Workspace: https://workspace.google.com/ • Slack: https://slack.com • Figma: https://figma.com • Mode: https://mode.com/ • GitHub: https://github.com/ • Fidji Simo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidjisimo/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Alex’s background (07:37) How Alex fought disinformation on the news team at Facebook (11:11) How some product people thrive in chaos (14:13) Alex’s return to the New York Times (16:22) What product means at the New York Times (20:42) How the product team at the New York Times is structured (26:20) How the New York Times makes stories come alive with balanced creative and technical teams (33:15) The acquisition of Wordle (42:00) What it was like to work at the New York Times during the onset of Covid (47:11) How to avoid burnout on a product team (49:26) How the New York Times has set itself apart with its subscription package (52:21) How the New York Times’s products are rooted in helping in the real world (52:54) Lenny’s tips for improving Wirecutter (53:36) The differences and similarities on product teams in a news organization (59:58) Lightning round — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Segments Timeline
Mission-Driven Product Management
Alex Hardiman discusses how the New York Times aligns its business goals with its mission to seek the truth and inform democracy. She emphasizes that product management at the Times is not just about metrics like subscriber growth, but also about ensuring impactful journalism that can lead to policy changes and societal understanding.
"one thing that's really interesting is that our impact and like our business goals are in service of our mission which is to seek the truth and kind of help people understand the world not the other w..."
Introduction to Alex Hardiman
In this segment, Lenny introduces Alex Hardiman, the Chief Product Officer at the New York Times. Alex shares her background, including her previous roles at The Atlantic and Facebook, and sets the stage for a discussion about the unique challenges and experiences of building products in a journalism context.
"feel that when I was at a place like Facebook welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products today my guest is Alex Hardi..."
The Challenge of Product Creation
Alex Hardiman reflects on the difficulties of creating products that resonate with users. She highlights the importance of collaboration among teams and the need for a structured approach to product management, especially in a fast-paced environment like the New York Times.
"foreign episode is brought to you by Miro creating a product especially one that your users can't live without is damn hard but it's made easier by working closely with your colleagues to capture idea..."
Navigating Chaos in Product Management
Alex shares her insights on thriving in chaotic environments as a product manager. She discusses the necessity of resilience, grit, and the ability to prioritize critical problems, emphasizing that these skills are essential for product leaders in journalism and tech.
"more that's Mi ro.com Lenny [Music] this episode is brought to you by athletic greens I've been hearing about ag-1 on basically every podcast that I listened to like Tim Ferriss and Lex Friedman so I ..."
Alex's Journey to the New York Times
In this segment, Alex recounts her career path leading to her role at the New York Times. She discusses her early experiences in journalism and tech, including her efforts to transition the Times from print to mobile and the challenges of implementing a direct-to-consumer subscription model.
"ultimate daily nutritional insurance foreign thank you for being here welcome to the podcast thanks so much Lenny it's really awesome to be here with you what's interesting is I think you may be the f..."
Lessons from Facebook's News Team
Alex reflects on her time at Facebook, particularly during the tumultuous period following the 2016 election. She describes the challenges of managing misinformation and the importance of creating a safer, more informative platform for users.
"from 2006 to 2016. and it was during a really interesting time of of pretty big transformation there's so much to talk about within that decade but I would say they're like two really big things that ..."
The Reality of Wartime Product Management
Alex shares her experience leading the news product team at Facebook during a critical time for the platform. She discusses the urgency and complexity of addressing misinformation and the need for humility and understanding in product management.
"that was really trying to help micro sellers in markets like India and other parts of aipac who were coming online for the first time in really low bandwidth areas and just wanted to sell their goods ..."
Understanding Public Content
In this segment, Alex explains the challenges of categorizing public content on Facebook. She discusses the need to differentiate between credible journalism and misleading information, highlighting the complexities of managing content on a large platform.
"product management right I mean you're kind of coming in um and and I think there was what I appreciated about the time inside of Facebook was that there was just this incredible humility right that w..."
Thriving in Chaos
Alex discusses her attraction to chaotic environments and how product managers can thrive under pressure. She emphasizes the importance of focusing on critical problems and the skills necessary to navigate uncertainty in product development.
"election cycle yeah I feel like you're I was going to ask you about this later but I feel like you're drawn towards just crazy wild and crazy center of the storm rolls and I guess that one you didn't ..."
Returning to the New York Times
Reflecting on her return to the New York Times after a stint at The Atlantic, Alex Hardiman shares her excitement and the supportive environment she experienced during her re-entry. She highlights the value of diverse experiences in product management and how they enhance her ability to lead effectively.
"yeah you said you said PM's thriving this I think some do some are like no leave me out of that I guess that's true I uh there's a there's a metaphor I like to use when I give PM's advice on where to ..."
The Interview Process: More Than Just Questions
Alex describes her unique interview experience upon returning to the New York Times, which felt more like a therapeutic conversation than a traditional interview. She emphasizes the importance of understanding past leadership qualities and how they can inform future contributions.
"their consumer business and then I came back to the New York Times in late 2019 right before the pandemic and I found more sense just your timing is impeccable every time it really is I uh I was doing..."
Defining Product at the New York Times
In this segment, Alex Hardiman explains what 'product' means at the New York Times, emphasizing that their product is fundamentally their journalism. She discusses the evolution from a printed newspaper to a digital platform, highlighting the importance of user experience in engaging audiences.
"like it was it was wonderful it was like one of the best interview processes because you're talking to a bunch of people who knew what you were like when you were leading as a person at a different po..."
The Shift to Digital and Subscription Models
Alex outlines the New York Times' transition to digital products and the implementation of a subscription model. She discusses the importance of building a direct relationship with customers and how the organization is bundling various products to enhance user engagement and value.
"over to digital the web and mobile the world just fully opened up in a way and we just saw this really tremendous disaggregation and kind of distribution of our journalism and so we really tried to me..."
Building a Comprehensive Subscription Bundle
Alex shares insights into the New York Times' strategy for creating a comprehensive subscription bundle that appeals to a wide audience. She discusses the importance of high-quality journalism and the goal of reaching 15 million subscribers by 2027, emphasizing the need for a connected family of products.
"strategy is a subscription bundle where you just keep bundling awesome stuff into this bundle so it's an obvious thing everyone has whether you want cooking or games or the New York Times online at th..."
Structuring the Product Team for Success
In this segment, Alex Hardiman elaborates on the structure of the product team at the New York Times, highlighting the importance of cross-functional teams that include editors. She explains how these teams focus on consumer missions, monetization, and platform development, ensuring a collaborative approach to product management.
"subscribers by 2027 right just over 9 million today a and I really think we can do it awesome I actually wanted to chat about goals and how you think about success as a product team I imagine the Nort..."
Creating Immersive Stories
Alex shares insights into how the New York Times creates immersive storytelling experiences. She describes the collaboration between journalists, designers, and engineers to bring stories to life, emphasizing the importance of innovative formats and the role of dedicated teams in crafting impactful narratives.
"different third bucket of mission that we have which is all of our platform teams and so this is everything from you know monetization platforms like our Commerce engine which is so important right be..."
The Magic of Collaboration
This segment focuses on the collaborative process behind impactful stories at the New York Times. Alex explains how journalists with deep expertise work alongside product teams to develop unique storytelling formats, ensuring that the presentation of news is both engaging and informative.
"like that well first thanks for saying that I really appreciate it I do think there's something really special about some of the ways that we marry kind of the journalism and the presentation I want t..."
Innovative Storytelling Formats
Alex discusses the innovative storytelling formats that emerge from the New York Times' newsroom. She highlights a powerful example of an interactive story that visually represents productivity scores, showcasing how dedicated teams can create compelling experiences that resonate with readers.
"and weight as possible and that's where the magic starts to happen when you kind of pull in all of those other skill sets together to help dream up how that story might be told so they like Alex we we..."
Balancing Speed and Quality
In this segment, Alex explains the balance between speed and quality in news reporting at the New York Times. She describes how product teams operate in two modes: responding quickly to breaking news while also developing long-term systems for storytelling, ensuring both immediacy and depth.
"actually have dedicated designers engineers and others who can like really sit down with a reporter to say like let's let's figure out how to shape that story in the most magical way and the speed of ..."
Evolving Storytelling Platforms
Alex elaborates on the evolution of storytelling platforms at the New York Times. She discusses how product teams are tasked with creating systems that enhance user experience across various formats, from traditional articles to live updates, adapting to the changing landscape of news consumption.
"length of tweets right people filing from the ground you know in Ukraine trying to give you a sense of what's happening in a very immediate and real way and that's where we do have teams product teams..."
Collaboration Between Newsroom and Product Teams
This segment highlights the collaboration between the newsroom and product teams at the New York Times. Alex explains how product teams help amplify stories without influencing editorial decisions, maintaining the integrity of journalism while enhancing audience engagement.
"over time that is super cool what percentage of these fancy stories are using the platform and building on something that already exists versus like a one-off experiment would you say roughly the majo..."
The Acquisition of Wordle
Alex shares the story behind the New York Times' acquisition of Wordle, detailing the swift and amicable process that led to the deal. She discusses the strategic importance of Wordle in enhancing the Times' games portfolio and its role in the overall subscription strategy.
"independence of of our coverage I mean we have our product team sit within The Newsroom if they're focused on storytelling live anything related to the coverage the only distinction really that I'm I ..."
Strategic Acquisitions at the New York Times
In this final segment, Alex discusses the New York Times' approach to acquisitions, including the acquisition of The Athletic. She emphasizes the importance of having a diverse range of products to support their subscription model and the potential for future acquisitions to enhance their offerings.
"perked up and I remember reaching out to Jonathan Knight who's the general manager of games who's on my team he'd already taken notice well before the piece was was published and he had already reache..."
A Coincidental Word: Managing Public Perception
Hardiman recounts a surprising incident where the Wordle solution coincidentally matched a sensitive news topic, highlighting the challenges of managing public perception during integration. She discusses the importance of transparency and communication with users to maintain trust and clarify the situation.
"about when you acquire like what's the opportunity but also are you ready to actually integrate an acquisition and we learned a lot just around Wordle in terms of kind of like what that process is lik..."
Building Purposeful Products During Crisis
Reflecting on her experience during the COVID-19 pandemic, Hardiman discusses how the New York Times pivoted to build products that provided essential information to the public. She highlights the urgency and importance of their mission to help people navigate the crisis through accurate reporting and accessible data.
"so when we acquired Wordle it was a simple web game game with no back end so that meant that people's stats and streaks which was you know like that was the value in terms of like social currency that..."
The Impact of Data Journalism
Hardiman emphasizes the significant impact of data journalism during the pandemic, noting that half of the country turned to the New York Times for guidance. She discusses the importance of providing clear, actionable information to help people make informed decisions during a time of uncertainty.
"break anything the experience was hopefully seamless and that the only thing you would notice that's changed is that the New York Times knows enough about who you are so that your stats carry over and..."
Navigating Burnout in Product Teams
In this segment, Hardiman addresses the challenges of burnout within product teams, especially during high-pressure situations like the pandemic. She shares insights on how the New York Times has worked to support employees through time off, financial assistance, and a focus on prioritizing essential tasks.
"the world we're mid-integration we're really not trying to communicate more than we're Turtle being a fun you know diversion from the news um here's what happened why and everyone understood like if i..."
The Importance of Support and Balance
Hardiman discusses the ongoing efforts to create a supportive work environment at the New York Times. She highlights the need for balance between work and personal life, emphasizing the importance of reducing context switching to help employees maintain focus and well-being.
"and what I will say is a lot of people still think we try to make wordal harder we don't I promise it's not a thing yeah it's not like the crossword puzzle where gets harder every day of the week no n..."
Impact During the Pandemic
Alex Hardiman reflects on the New York Times' role during the COVID-19 pandemic, highlighting how the organization provided crucial information that helped millions navigate the crisis. She emphasizes the fulfillment her team felt in delivering impactful journalism that guided people on how to stay safe and informed during a time of confusion.
"time doing those things but it's I mean it's one of the biggest news stories of our lifetime and to be at the Forefront of that I think for all of us was a pretty incredible and kind of humbling exper..."
Combating Burnout in Product Teams
In this segment, Alex discusses the challenges of burnout within product teams, especially during prolonged crises like the pandemic. She shares strategies the New York Times implemented to support employees, including time off and flexible work arrangements, while emphasizing the importance of focusing on essential tasks to maintain productivity and morale.
"validating too I imagine there's also a bit of burnout that happens working where it kind of goes on and on and on you're like oh my god when is this going to slow down how do you help people avoid or..."
The Future of the New York Times
Alex outlines her vision for the New York Times over the next decade, focusing on becoming an essential subscription service that meets diverse user needs across various categories, including news, cooking, and games. She highlights the transformative impact of acquisitions like Wordle and the growth of lifestyle products, positioning the Times as a multifaceted brand.
"answer for this but we we're really trying because the success in the company only works when we have people who feel valued and like they can do their best work and live really rich lives on top of t..."
Building a Connected Family of Products
In this segment, Alex elaborates on the New York Times' ambition to create a cohesive suite of products that cater to users' daily needs. She envisions a platform where users can seamlessly transition from breaking news to engaging with lifestyle content, illustrating how the Times aims to integrate journalism with everyday life.
"associate the New York Times with one categories like imagine that you know you open the New York Times app and you are starting with a great breaking news story and then you skip over to the latest c..."
The Unique Role of Product Managers
Alex discusses the distinct role of product managers at the New York Times compared to tech companies. She emphasizes the importance of blending editorial judgment with product strategy, showcasing how product managers at the Times are involved in both content creation and algorithmic decision-making to enhance user experience.
"job in the world right now that is a compelling Vision I feel like you can build your own metaverse in the New York Times where you just spend all your days inside the New York Times Suite of products..."
Defining Impact in Journalism
In this segment, Alex contrasts the definition of impact at the New York Times with that at tech companies like Facebook. She explains how the Times prioritizes mission-driven goals, focusing on informing democracy and triggering policy changes through journalism, rather than solely on engagement metrics.
"like if it's it's wire cutter meets High Taste basically I like that I like that okay I think there's a market there I'll definitely bring that back to the team okay there you go there's one yeah ther..."
The Importance of Product Management
Alex concludes by discussing the critical role of product management in various sectors, emphasizing the need for skilled product managers to address pressing societal issues. She advocates for the value of product thinking in creating meaningful solutions that resonate with users and drive positive change.
"journalism and our content we own our distribution and we own our products and that's really different from working at a big Tech platform like when I was at Facebook we controlled the software and th..."
Lightning Round: Book Recommendations
In a rapid-fire segment, Alex shares her top book recommendations for product managers, highlighting works like 'High Growth Handbook' and 'An Elegant Puzzle.' She also emphasizes the value of fiction, recommending 'Giovanni's Room' by James Baldwin for its profound insights into the human experience.
"gonna ask you I have six questions I'll get through them pretty quick and whatever comes to mind fire off we'll go through it fast and fun sound good great okay what are two or three books that you re..."
Favorite Podcasts and TV Shows
Alex discusses her favorite podcasts, including 'The Daily' from the New York Times, and shares her love for re-watching 'The Wire.' She reflects on the show's storytelling and character development, underscoring its impact on her perspective as a product leader.
"just think it's actually like sometimes some of the best ideas and inspiration come when you go like one or two steps away from kind of the core the core books that kind of are related to your practic..."
Essential SaaS Tools for Product Teams
In this segment, Alex lists essential SaaS tools used by her team at the New York Times, including G Suite, Slack, Figma, and GitHub. She discusses how these tools enhance productivity and collaboration within product teams, emphasizing their importance in the workflow.
"wouldn't put it that way okay what's the favorite other podcast that you like to listen to you mentioned one already is that the one everyone should listen to hard Fork it's great but I I just think t..."
Recognizing Industry Thought Leaders
Alex highlights Fiji Simo as a respected thought leader in the product management space. She shares her admiration for Simo's contributions to the industry and her support for women in tech, showcasing the importance of mentorship and leadership in product management.
"character names that's the actor right right is that no no I really just totally spoiled that okay that's cool it's over you're lost oh oh boy how awful that's like a cardinal sin but I do think seaso..."
Closing Thoughts and Future Engagement
As the conversation wraps up, Alex invites listeners to connect with her on social media and share their ideas for making the New York Times more valuable. She expresses gratitude for the discussion and the opportunity to share insights about product management at the NYT.
"get her on this podcast oh I mean that would be amazing all right I need to do awesome good recommendation Alex this was amazing I learned so much this is such a fun conversation thank you again for d..."