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How to build trust and grow as a product leader | Fareed Mosavat (Reforge, Slack, Instacart, Pixar)
49 segments available
Fareed Mosavat is Chief Development Officer at Reforge, where he leads production, content, and new-product experiences. Previously, he led growth and product teams at Slack and Instacart, was a GM at Zynga, and also served as VP of Product at RunKeeper. Before all of that, Fareed’s fascinating career began in engineering for Pixar, where he learned the art of storytelling and collaboration. In today’s episode, we talk about how his time at Pixar influenced the way he thinks about product, why it’s so difficult to become a better PM, and how to avoid the “manager death spiral.” Fareed shares important insights on how to earn the trust of your manager and coworkers, the four types of product work—and why you need to understand all four. He also provides solid examples of how to generalize your learnings and explains why this will expand your options, make you a better PM, and boost your chances of moving into a leadership role. Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-establish-credibility-and — Where to find Fareed Mosavat: • Twitter: https://twitter.com/far33d • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fareed/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible: • Coda: http://coda.io/lenny • Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/ • Vanta: https://vanta.com/lenny — Referenced: • Naval Ravikant’s Twitter thread about specific knowledge: https://twitter.com/naval/status/1002104865919664128 • Merci Grace on Lenny’s podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/merci-grace-ex-head-of-growth-at-slack-on-plg-interviewing-storytelling-building-a-diverse-team-hiring-salespeople-building-a-growth-team-and-much-more/ • “Crossing the Canyon: Product Manager to Product Leader,” by Fareed Mosavat and Casey Winters: https://www.reforge.com/blog/crossing-the-canyon-product-manager-to-product-leader • Casey Winters on Lenny’s podcast: https://www.podpage.com/lennys-podcast/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/ • Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Fareed’s background (03:55) Lessons from Pixar (09:07) What Fareed does at Reforge (11:57) The scale of Reforge at this time (13:51) Why it’s so difficult to become a better PM (18:03) A PM pie chart—execution, generalizing your solutions, communication, and scaling (23:00) How creating trust helped Fareed’s career grow (26:24) How to gain trust by leveraging your curiosity and communication skills (33:50) How to move from PM to Product Lead (36:43) The manager death spiral and how to avoid it (40:43) The four types of product work (44:13) Moving from IC to product manager (47:15) How to ask for the proper resources (50:00) The trend of senior PMs diversifying into advising, teaching, and angel investing (57:20) The downsides of being your own boss (01:00:45) Advice for breaking into advising — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Segments Timeline
The Real Work of Product Management
Fareed Mosavat emphasizes the importance of hands-on experience in product management. He argues that theoretical training is just a layer on top of the real learning that comes from executing and delivering products in real-world scenarios. This segment highlights the necessity of continuous practice and iteration in becoming a successful product manager.
"you can't do homework you can't do exercises you can't do fake stuff you have to work on real products that real companies with real customers with real data to get better at product management and so..."
Fareed's Journey Through Tech
In this segment, Fareed Mosavat shares his extensive background in product leadership, detailing his roles at Reforge, Slack, Instacart, Zynga, and Pixar. He reflects on his career trajectory, illustrating how his diverse experiences have shaped his approach to product management and leadership. This overview sets the stage for deeper discussions on product management principles.
"Fareed most of it is the chief development officer at reforge where he's been for over two and a half years before that he spent three and a half years at slack leading a lot of their growth efforts a..."
Lessons from Pixar
Fareed discusses his time at Pixar, where he worked on major films like Finding Nemo and Up. He explains how his experiences there taught him the importance of delivering an emotional and engaging end experience rather than focusing solely on technical accuracy. This lesson has profoundly influenced his approach to product management, emphasizing the significance of storytelling and user experience.
"the best of documents spreadsheets and apps in one place I actually use Coda every single day it's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing it's where I plan my content calendar capture my re..."
The Intersection of Art and Technology
In this segment, Fareed reflects on how his background in animation and visual effects at Pixar informs his current role in product management. He discusses the blend of creative and technical challenges he faced, and how this unique perspective helps him solve complex problems in product development. This intersection is crucial for creating compelling products that resonate with users.
"teams more productive to one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life with an incredibly Rich collection of templates and guides in the coded doc Gallery including res..."
Understanding Your Role at Reforge
Fareed explains his role as Chief Development Officer at Reforge, where he oversees content, operations, and partnerships. He describes how Reforge differs from traditional software companies by focusing on building experiences and solving real customer problems. This segment highlights the importance of collaboration and leveraging expertise from various fields to enhance product offerings.
"hey John hey Lenny excited to be here John give us a behind the scenes at amplitude when most people think of amplitude they think of product analytics but now you're getting into experimentation and ..."
Growth and Scaling at Reforge
In this segment, Fareed discusses the rapid growth of Reforge, detailing the company's expansion in terms of employees and cohort-based programs. He shares insights into how Reforge supports over 10,000 active members and collaborates with industry experts to deliver valuable content and experiences. This growth reflects the increasing demand for structured learning in product management.
"Fareed welcome to the podcast thanks for having me Lenny I'm super excited to be here so to set a little context for listeners that aren't super familiar with you can you give us just like a 45 second..."
The Importance of Problem Solving
Fareed emphasizes the significance of problem-solving in product management. He discusses how his various roles have taught him to focus on delivering value and learning from each experience. This segment underscores the idea that titles and roles are less important than the ability to tackle interesting challenges and contribute meaningfully to a team.
"way from first sign out first team creation through to the first invite activation expansion modernization and even connecting the dots with our SMB sales team to help nurture some of the a small self..."
Navigating Career Decisions
Fareed Mosavat discusses the importance of evaluating career decisions based on the value they bring and the learning opportunities they present. He emphasizes the significance of understanding what you contribute to a role and how each experience can shape your future career path.
"some meaningful way and will I learn something great and new from this role and at every step I made the decisions have gone up and down the title stack from VP down to icpm from you know engineered a..."
The Growth of Reforge
In this segment, Fareed shares insights into the rapid growth of Reforge, detailing the current scale of the company, including employee count and the number of cohort-based programs offered. He highlights the evolution from a small team to a larger organization with diverse roles and responsibilities.
"Journeys but one last question on reforge actually how big is reforge at this point like how many cohorts how many students students how many people work there what's like the operation scale at this ..."
Cohort-Based Learning at Reforge
Fareed explains the structure of Reforge's educational offerings, mentioning the 19 cohort-based programs across various disciplines. He emphasizes the importance of these programs in fostering a community of over 10,000 active members and the role of experts in enhancing the learning experience.
"this point it was when I first started working with it it was a scrappy operation of just a handful of folks but we've grown quite a bit over the last year with that we support I believe now 19 total ..."
Lessons from Guest Lectures
Reflecting on his experiences, Fareed recounts his involvement in guest lectures at Reforge, sharing how these interactions contribute to the learning environment. He appreciates the collaborative nature of teaching and learning within the Reforge community.
"we have well over 10 000 active members on the platform about a dozen Executives and residents that work to help us deliver those programs and hundreds of Partners we call them experts and operators i..."
Challenges in Product Management Careers
Fareed discusses the complexities of product management careers, focusing on the challenges PMs face in their development journey. He highlights the difficulties in transitioning from one role to another and the unique hurdles that come with becoming a better PM.
"me look bad thank you so what's cool about your background working at reforge and all the companies you worked at is that you've seen a lot of PM careers go well and PM careers go not so well and so w..."
The Difficulty of Becoming a Better PM
In this segment, Fareed delves into why it is inherently challenging to improve as a product manager. He points out the lack of clear training paths and the necessity of hands-on experience to develop the specific knowledge required for success in the role.
"become better as a product manager such a weird job to get better at and so my first question is actually why is it so hard to become better as a PM like why is it innately a tricky thing to develop a..."
Breaking into Product Management
Fareed elaborates on the difficulties of breaking into product management, discussing the various paths available and the challenges faced by aspiring PMs. He emphasizes the importance of credentials and the limited opportunities for entry into the field.
"one-to-one directly correlates to the work you're going to do on a day-to-day basis I think there's a idea that Naval ravacon talked about on Twitter and then blog posts a long time ago this concept o..."
The Learning Loop in Product Management
Fareed introduces the concept of a learning loop in product management, emphasizing the importance of execution, generalization of learnings, and communication. He explains how these elements contribute to a PM's growth and ability to tackle more complex problems.
"successful generally on the job of product management you can learn how to be a good pm at Google you can learn to be a good PM app Facebook but it is up to each individual pm to figure out how to gen..."
Execution as the Core of PM Success
In this segment, Fareed stresses that execution is the foundation of a successful product management career. He discusses how new PMs should focus on delivering solutions to known problems and the importance of learning from these experiences.
"there are ways that I think great PMS use to go faster on this Loop but you still have to do the work that the core is you have to actually execute and deliver great products you have to do it over an..."
Generalizing Learnings for Future Success
Fareed explains the significance of generalizing learnings from past experiences to enhance future problem-solving capabilities. He shares examples of how insights gained from specific projects can be applied to broader contexts in product management.
"we'll start with the pie chart at the beginning it's almost all execution what are the problems you give a junior a brand new pm known problem known solution please work with engineering and design to..."
The Role of Communication in PM Growth
Fareed highlights the critical role of communication in a product manager's career. He discusses how effectively sharing insights and learnings can lead to greater opportunities and the importance of articulating one's understanding to influence others.
"you to the next project in your mind exactly so to use an example there was a time at instacart where we were working on onboarding brand new onboarding and activation flow for customers and we tried ..."
Scaling Opportunities as a PM
In this segment, Fareed discusses how product managers can scale their opportunities by moving from known problems to more complex, unknown challenges. He emphasizes the need for PMs to broaden their skill sets and adapt to new situations as they progress in their careers.
"how it applies to the real world and then the next bit is communication and I think this is a bit that a lot of product managers are obviously in any job Miss but you can't just do the work you have t..."
Inflection Points in PM Careers
Fareed reflects on key inflection points in his career that have significantly impacted his growth as a product manager. He shares insights on the transitions he made and the lessons learned from moving into leadership roles.
"do you think scaling take on more scope or have more impact is that kind of anything about scaling that last piece yeah I think it's one moving from knowns to unknowns so like you're being given hairi..."
Sponsorship vs. Mentorship
Fareed shares his perspective on the difference between sponsorship and mentorship in career growth. He recounts personal experiences where having sponsors who recognized his potential led to significant opportunities, contrasting this with the more common mentorship approach.
"think there's like pieces of loop you can control and pieces that are externalized I'm curious in your own career what the biggest inflections of growth have been either in terms of learning or impact..."
Creating Trust Through Performance
In this segment, Fareed discusses how demonstrating competence and solving complex problems can create trust with leadership. He shares examples from his career where his ability to communicate effectively led to increased responsibilities and opportunities.
"necessarily find that in my career I've had a lot of managers where I'm like wow they're like day-to-day help was super awesome at helping me be a better leader I hope that I've been that for some peo..."
The Role of Curiosity in Career Growth
Fareed explains how curiosity plays a crucial role in career advancement. He advises product managers to understand not only their immediate tasks but also the broader context of their work, which can lead to greater visibility and sponsorship opportunities.
"one's that slack I was an icpm working on activation and growth on a team of three or four other PMs and there were a couple of moments where by communicating my work and talking through how I was sol..."
Understanding Organizational Priorities
Fareed discusses the importance of aligning with organizational priorities to enhance visibility and sponsorship potential. He suggests that working on high-impact projects can attract attention from leadership and facilitate career growth.
"we haven't talked a lot about this on the podcast there's a lot of talk of finding a coach or having a manager that teaches you how to do the job but this idea of just like getting to a place where so..."
Building a Mental Model of the Company
In this segment, Fareed emphasizes the need for product managers to develop a mental model of how their company operates. He discusses the significance of understanding various roles and how they interconnect, which can enhance collaboration and trust within the organization.
"you have to have not just impact on the customers but also in the organization and I think it is impact on the organization changing the way people think about problems helping generalize what works a..."
Leveraging Communication for Impact
Fareed highlights the dual impact of effective communication: improving customer outcomes and influencing organizational dynamics. He stresses that product managers must not only focus on metrics but also on educating their teams about growth strategies.
"some of it's just locked someone's got to believe in you you can create your luck by being good at communicating and solving hard problems I think the other piece is knowing when you go into an organi..."
Curiosity and Cross-Functional Understanding
Fareed discusses the importance of curiosity in understanding cross-functional dynamics. He encourages product managers to engage with different teams to gain insights that can inform their work and enhance their effectiveness.
"and the other bit is curiosity I think to be in the seat where people want to sponsor you I think you have to show a handle on not just what you're doing but how that relates to all of the things arou..."
Navigating the Product Management Landscape
Fareed shares strategies for product managers to navigate their roles effectively. He emphasizes the importance of understanding both the technical and strategic aspects of their work to drive better outcomes and foster trust within their teams.
"what are the technical things that work and don't work in the pieces like all maybe down to the database right like technical curiosity those kinds of things but also like mental models for what's abo..."
The Transition from IC to Manager
Fareed discusses the challenges of transitioning from an individual contributor (IC) role to a management position in product management. He outlines the skills and mindset shifts necessary to succeed in this new capacity.
"modernization or they could advise me on what they're thinking and what might be coming next how do we fit together with the Enterprise part of the business even though I'm working on self-serve how d..."
Building Trust Through Understanding
In this segment, Fareed emphasizes the importance of understanding your manager's priorities to build trust. He suggests that proactive communication about how your work aligns with their goals can significantly enhance your relationship and career trajectory.
"percent and then lean into to Opportunities and also problems that help you show that and shine it that way that is such cool advice I think what's cool about that is I imagine you just go to your man..."
The Manager Death Spiral
Fareed Mosavat discusses the challenges of transitioning from an individual contributor (IC) to a product manager (PM). He introduces the concept of the 'manager death spiral,' where new managers become overwhelmed by their responsibilities, leading to a cycle of failure. This segment emphasizes the importance of trusting team members and shifting from a doer mindset to an editor mindset, allowing for better delegation and team growth.
"expensive enter vanta over 3 000 fast growing companies use vanta to automate up to 90 of the work involved with sock 2. vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months less tha..."
Trusting Your Team
In this segment, Fareed elaborates on the necessity of trusting your team as a product manager. He explains how new managers often fall into the trap of doing too much themselves, which can hinder team development. By learning to delegate and empower others, managers can avoid the pitfalls of the manager death spiral and foster a more productive work environment.
"about what this Canyon is and why it exists yeah we talked a little bit about like the first sort of very hard part in product management Career Development which is like how do I land my first job no..."
Shifting from Doer to Editor
Fareed Mosavat shares insights on the transition from being a doer to an editor in product management. He emphasizes the importance of reviewing and enhancing the work of others rather than solely focusing on execution. This shift is crucial for effective leadership and allows managers to leverage their team's strengths while ensuring high-quality outcomes.
"stuff and you've gotten there by being really good at that right you've gotten there by getting in the weeds getting in the details sweating what matters like working hard at it and so someone says we..."
Understanding Resource Allocation
In this segment, Fareed discusses the critical aspect of resource allocation for product managers. He highlights the difference between managing resources as an IC and proposing necessary resources as a leader. This understanding is vital for maximizing impact and ensuring that teams have the support they need to succeed.
"that's how you get to like level oh now I get to work on the fun projects and the interesting and high leverage ones and I'll leave all the other ones to other people I think you call this the manager..."
The Four Types of Product Work
Fareed introduces a framework for understanding the four types of product work: feature work, growth work, product-market fit expansion, and scaling work. He explains how each type contributes to a product's success and the importance of recognizing and balancing these different dimensions as a product leader.
"when you have a problem if you have people that are in that upper quadrant of like they understand the problem they have the level of experience to solve it it's maybe not 100 important maybe it is th..."
Navigating the Product Leadership Canyon
Fareed discusses the challenges faced by product managers as they transition to leadership roles, referring to it as the 'Product Leadership Canyon.' He emphasizes the need for PMs to broaden their focus beyond their areas of expertise and to develop a holistic understanding of various product work types to effectively lead their teams.
"your job is to convince other people that do work too awesome so going back to the canyon so the first piece was essentially over focusing on just being too good at the thing you're already doing vers..."
Building a Portfolio of Product Work
In this segment, Fareed explains the importance of building a diverse portfolio of product work as a leader. He discusses how understanding different types of product work can enhance a PM's effectiveness and help them lead their teams more successfully. This approach encourages curiosity and a willingness to learn across various dimensions of product management.
"stuff no no you can curse all you want that's all good okay great oh you've just done well be careful with all you want nobody has cursed yet on this podcast then it's allowed okay you know it's the i..."
The Importance of Curiosity in Leadership
Fareed emphasizes the role of curiosity in product leadership. He encourages PMs to ask questions and seek foundational understanding across different types of product work. This curiosity not only aids in personal growth but also enhances the team's ability to tackle diverse challenges effectively.
"what we call product Market fit expansion so it's not exactly Feature work which is like hey now that I use your product more I have this thing I need you know in order to keep using it because I'm a ..."
Understanding Growth Strategies
Fareed Mosavat emphasizes the importance of understanding growth strategies as a product manager. He discusses how to categorize responsibilities and the significance of recognizing growth-related challenges within product work. This segment highlights the need for PMs to build a mental model for evaluating different types of product work and how to drive adoption and usage effectively.
"just start to learn and understand maybe say you're doing Feature work you're just building a like a dashboard for your users and is your advice there like start thinking about how growth works and un..."
Owning Business Outcomes as a Leader
In this segment, Fareed discusses the shift in responsibility that comes with leadership roles. He explains how product leaders must own the impact and delivery of business outcomes, rather than just focusing on sub-problems. This insight is crucial for aspiring product leaders to understand the broader implications of their work and the importance of resource allocation.
"well like I am not a good technical PM despite having added engineering background it's been too long but I hope that I can lead technical scaling a technical debt restructure on my team or at least u..."
Avoiding Resource Victimhood
Fareed shares his experiences with the pitfalls of becoming a victim of limited resources as a product manager. He stresses the importance of advocating for necessary resources and making a case for what is needed to achieve desired outcomes. This segment provides valuable lessons on how to empower oneself and avoid complacency in resource-constrained environments.
"here's what I need to do this thing that you want me to do if you think this is important here's what we need and put it on other people's plate doesn't mean you'll get it but it's important to put th..."
The Shift to Advisory Roles
Fareed discusses the growing trend of senior leaders transitioning from full-time roles to advisory positions. He explores the motivations behind this shift, including the desire for flexibility and the opportunity to impact multiple organizations. This segment highlights the evolving landscape of product leadership and the increasing demand for experienced advisors.
"cross-functional like I think we did a good job of making the case for why we needed new teams or add more things to drive more impact but I still took a very like product approach to solving activati..."
Exploring Portfolio-Based Careers
In this segment, Fareed elaborates on the concept of portfolio-based careers for product leaders. He explains how executives are diversifying their impact by engaging in various roles, such as advising and content creation. This discussion sheds light on the benefits of this approach and how it allows leaders to leverage their expertise across multiple companies.
"interesting the whys are hard to like pin down but it's definitely happening I think some of it is maybe covid induced some of it is remote work driving these Trends and some of it is just like there ..."
Navigating the Executive Transition
Fareed shares insights on the executive transition process and the importance of finding the right fit in new roles. He discusses the value of exploring different opportunities before committing to a full-time position. This segment provides guidance for leaders looking to navigate their career paths thoughtfully and strategically.
"company for four years of a hundred percent of my time it's a portfolio approach to the not just the time and energy but also the upside and opportunities that are there as well as the fact that they'..."
The Value of Specific Knowledge
Fareed emphasizes the importance of identifying and leveraging specific knowledge in one's career. He discusses how having a niche expertise can create unique opportunities and enhance one's value in the job market. This segment encourages product leaders to focus on developing specialized skills that set them apart in their field.
"a lot of opportunities so you want to be really careful about it but also too because it may not be the best use of your energy like when you have a lot of Frameworks and you have a lot of broad under..."
The Downsides of Influencer Culture
In this closing segment, Fareed reflects on the potential downsides of the trend towards becoming an influencer or creator in the product management space. He raises concerns about the implications for those who may abandon traditional career paths. This discussion serves as a cautionary note for aspiring leaders considering this route.
"and that I have generalized and knocked in my mind that I can actually like be really effective in a small amount of time so what works for you I I don't know a lot about like the mechanics of your ne..."
Downsides of the Independent Path
In this segment, Fareed shares the challenges of pursuing an independent career path, including the lack of benefits such as health insurance and retirement plans. He raises concerns about the sustainability of this lifestyle and the potential impact on the industry if experienced operators leave full-time roles to become advisors or influencers.
"out of it there's two thoughts I want to go into here and then I think we should probably wrap up but one is I do worry there's like everyone that gets to a certain point it just like exits the career..."
Setting Up for Advisory Success
Fareed offers advice for those aspiring to become full-time advisors or independent professionals. He stresses the importance of building a diverse skill set and gaining experience at reputable companies to enhance credibility. He also discusses the need for a balance of depth and breadth in expertise to effectively communicate value to potential clients.
"what it's been because they're actually they're building and doing Etc so I think that's the other like question mark and downside and I think we think about this as part of our ecosystem I think as l..."
Connecting with the Community
Fareed concludes by inviting listeners to connect with him and explore opportunities for collaboration. He emphasizes the importance of networking and being open to helping others in the product management space, highlighting his commitment to supporting the next generation of product leaders through his work at Reforge.
"you don't want to be so narrow that like only d2c e-commerce company that sell you know once a year purchases or whatever is the only thing you can work on that's just I'm just an example I could have..."