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Ep.131 — Trying not to try w/ Edward Slingerland
41 segments available
Edward Slingerland is a University Scholar and Professor of Philosophy at the University of British Columbia. He has authored a number of books, including ‘Trying Not to Try’ and ‘Drunk: How We Sipped, Danced, and Stumbled Our Way to Civilization’. He joins the show to discuss the paradox of effortless action, the history of Chinese philosophy, the benefits of alcohol, and a whole lot more. Important Links: - Edward’s Twitter - (https://twitter.com/slingerland20?s=21&t=SYJHcIJ2Q8VTzS7jniTYbg) - Edward’s Website - (https://www.edwardslingerland.com) - Drunk - (https://www.edwardslingerland.com/drunk) - Trying Not to Try - (https://www.edwardslingerland.com/trying-not-to-try) Show Notes: [00:00:00] - Intro [00:02:38] - Main Podcast [00:03:35] - The paradox of trying not to try [00:10:44] - Western equivalents to wu-wei [00:15:11] - The difference between wu-wei and flow [00:21:42] - How to cultivate wu-wei [00:23:07] - How technology makes it harder to find wu-wei [00:29:44] - Why were Confucianism and Daoism so successful? [00:32:37] - Utilitarianism, China and the panopticon [00:39:14] - The right amount of rationality, choking [00:46:59] - Shutting down the prefrontal cortext [00:53:58] - The evolutionary origins of our love of alcohol [00:57:10] - The power of psychedelics [01:04:38] - Ecological niches, cooperation, creativity and honesty [01:09:10] - An alternative model of honesty [01:14:16] - Stop pushing so hard, go walk in the woods Books Mentioned: - Trying Not to Try: The Ancient Art of Effortlessness and the Surprising Power of Spontaneity; by Edward Slingerland - Drunk: How We Sipped, Danced and Stumbled Our Way to Civilization; by Edward Slingerland - The Dao De Jing; by Laozi - The Status Game: On Human Life and How to Play It; by Will Storr - The Science of Storytelling: Why Stories Make Us Human and How to Tell Them Better; by Will Storr - The Master and His Emissary; by Iain McGilchrist - Choke: What the Secrets of the Brain Reveal About Getting It Right When You Have To; by Sian Beilock - The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name; by Brian C. Muraresku
Segments Timeline
The Concept of Trying Not to Try
Edward Slingerland introduces the concept of 'trying not to try,' explaining how it relates to losing a sense of self and time. He connects this idea to the Japanese practice of forest bathing and emphasizes the importance of disconnecting from technology to cultivate a more human experience.
"so try not to try is about this concept away and I realized at the end of my climb that I had lost all sense of time that I had lost any sense of myself can you do Israel are doing from the computer o..."
Infinite Loops of Thought
Jim O'Shaughnessy welcomes listeners to 'Infinite Loops,' discussing the challenges of repetitive thinking in various contexts. He highlights the podcast's goal of resetting perspectives on complex issues through a multi-faceted lens, including philosophy and science.
"the woods this is what makes humans humans [Music] hi I'm Jim O'Shaughnessy and welcome to infinite Loops sometimes we get caught up in what feel like infinite Loops when trying to figure things out m..."
Introducing Edward Slingerland
Jim introduces Edward Slingerland, a professor and author, sharing his admiration for Slingerland's work. They discuss the Dao De Jing and the paradox of effortless action, setting the stage for a deeper exploration of these philosophical concepts.
"please enjoy this episode of infinite Loops Jim O'Shaughnessy is Chairman and co-chief investment officer of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management where Jamie catherwood is an associate all opinions expresse..."
Understanding Wu-Wei and Effortless Action
Slingerland explains the Chinese concept of 'wu-wei,' often translated as 'non-action.' He clarifies that it refers to a state of effortless action where one loses self-consciousness and achieves success, drawing parallels with Confucianism and Taoism.
"Edward Slinger slingerland we'll work on that slingerlin professor at the University of British Columbia and author of trying not to try and drunk welcome thanks for having me so I love your work I my..."
The Paradox of Trying Not to Try
Slingerland discusses the paradox inherent in trying not to try, emphasizing the tension between conscious effort and spontaneous action. He relates this to the workings of the brain and the challenges of achieving a state of unself-consciousness.
"later on right okay yeah so the concepts are trying not to try is about this concept way in Mandarin so literally no doing or no action or no trying it's sometimes translated as non-action which I thi..."
Strategies for Cultivating Effortlessness
Exploring various strategies from early Chinese philosophy, Slingerland outlines how rituals, music, and meditation can help individuals achieve a state of effortless action. He notes that while these strategies can be effective, they do not provide a definitive solution to the paradox.
"so they the early Chinese both the confucians and the taoists and one of my my dissertation project which turned in my first book one of the novel arguments I was making there is that people tend to a..."
The Importance of Spontaneity
Slingerland emphasizes the significance of spontaneity in achieving certain life goals, such as happiness and creativity. He critiques modern society's focus on striving and encourages listeners to consider the value of letting go and embracing a more effortless approach.
"really more focused on active trying very roughly speaking the confucians think you need to try not to try and I think you need to stop trying the reason and one of the other arguments in my earlier w..."
Western Equivalents of Wu-Wei
Jim and Edward discuss Western philosophical concepts that parallel 'wu-wei,' including the ancient Greek notion of 'arete' and modern ideas of flow. They explore how different cultures approach the idea of effortless action and spontaneity.
"spontaneous the part of your brain I'm activating very roughly the prefrontal cortex kind of the executive control part of the brain the part I'm activating when I tell you that is the part we want to..."
The Challenge of Teaching Virtue
Slingerland reflects on the challenges of teaching virtue and spontaneity, drawing on Aristotle's views. He discusses the paradox of trying to cultivate qualities like bravery and justice without undermining their spontaneous nature.
"do the Dallas it's a little less clear what they're having you do but some of it clearly involves meditating sitting meditation maybe breathing practices so they're giving you these bodily techniques ..."
Cultural Perspectives on Disposition Change
The conversation shifts to how various cultures, including medieval Christian thinkers, grapple with the challenge of changing dispositions. Slingerland highlights the philosophical implications of this struggle in the context of ethics and personal development.
"least having seeing the importance I think the crucial message of trying not to try is that the chain early Chinese were right in identifying the importance of spot to the AED and the fact that there ..."
Spontaneity in Performance and Creativity
Slingerland discusses how communities that rely on spontaneity, such as athletes and improvisational performers, are acutely aware of the paradox of trying not to try. He emphasizes the importance of understanding this tension in creative and performance contexts.
"not to try I guess it's an Oman and completely concur it is it is truly a paradox and I was familiar with all of the various methodologies that people suggested for doing it but you're right like when..."
The Paradox of Trying Not to Try
Edward Slingerland discusses the philosophical concerns surrounding the paradox of trying not to try, particularly in the context of Western rationalist ethics. He contrasts conscious and unconscious decision-making processes, highlighting how traditional models often overlook the importance of spontaneity and disposition in ethical behavior.
"you create that love so they had this problem too so so lots of cultures any culture that's focusing on changing your dispositions is going to run into this problem I think the reason that it kind of ..."
Spontaneity in Performance
Slingerland explores how communities that rely on spontaneity, such as athletes and improvisational performers, grapple with the tension of trying too hard versus allowing natural flow. He emphasizes the importance of being in the moment and how this tension is a central challenge for those in creative fields.
"in our conscious lives or kind of literature and philosophy where it survived is in sub communities that are very much grappling with the problem of getting into spontaneity so athletes who are worrie..."
Flow vs. Wu-Wei
In this segment, Slingerland distinguishes between the concepts of flow and wu-wei, arguing that while both involve a state of effortless action, they stem from different philosophical backgrounds. He critiques Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's characterization of flow and suggests that true flow is about being absorbed in something greater than oneself.
"chicks mihai got it slightly wrong in terms of characterizing it so so if flow has all the it is the same state as a way right it's you're unsubconscious there's a sense of time everything works out c..."
Experiencing Flow in Nature
Slingerland shares a personal anecdote about experiencing flow while climbing a steep incline, illustrating how nature can facilitate this state. He discusses the benefits of engaging with the physical world and how activities like forest bathing can help individuals disconnect from technology and reconnect with their surroundings.
"the book that Hua is a more helpful Concept in the sense that the Hallmark of the way it is is that for them it's a religious framework so you're into a way because you're absorbed in the dowel the wa..."
External Stimuli for Flow
Slingerland identifies various external stimuli that can help individuals achieve a state of flow, emphasizing the importance of nature, social interactions, and simple physical tasks. He contrasts these with the distractions of modern technology, particularly smartphones, which hinder the ability to engage in spontaneous, meaningful experiences.
"that all of my movements and everything weren't planned they just happened right and as this was like a an 80 degree or 75 degree angle so you had to literally use the trees as ways to pull yourself u..."
Generational Differences in Technology Use
In this segment, Slingerland discusses the generational differences in technology use, particularly the impact of smartphones on attention and social interactions. He reflects on how rituals, such as no phones at the dinner table, can help younger generations cultivate deeper connections and mindfulness in their daily lives.
"ways to get into a way but it's very hard to do okay and do way is very hard to do it from the computer or on your smartphone and I think that's one of the problems we face now I think you know in pre..."
Navigating Smartphone Addiction
In this segment, Edward Slingerland discusses the generational differences in technology use, particularly smartphones. He shares insights on how his daughter, a digital native, navigates smartphone addiction and the strategies they've implemented, such as no phones at the dinner table and keeping devices out of the bedroom at night. Slingerland emphasizes the need for conscious strategies to manage technology's addictive nature.
"you think like if younger people just said you know what my daughter for example she's a young Millennial so she's 27 26 now she has a rule and that is when you're at dinner all the sailboats have to ..."
The Enduring Legacy of Confucianism and Daoism
Slingerland explores why Confucianism and Daoism have remained prominent in Western understanding of Chinese philosophy, despite the existence of other schools like Legalism. He reflects on historical factors that contributed to the survival of these philosophies and their integration into Chinese governance, highlighting the blend of Confucian and Legalist principles in shaping societal norms.
"to actually come up with conscious top-down PFC driven strategies because it is such an addictive thing yeah I I'm fascinated by it because I also think that the digital natives like your daughter do ..."
Utilitarianism and the Panopticon
In this thought-provoking discussion, Slingerland connects Jeremy Bentham's concept of the panopticon to modern societal structures. He examines how utilitarianism, originally intended for humane governance, can lead to oppressive surveillance systems. The conversation raises questions about the balance between societal control and individual freedom, particularly in the context of modern China.
"in those two particular schools that's a bit of a puzzle so it is in the Warring States period there were schools of for instance logic there was a school of logician Youth all right very rationalisti..."
The Dangers of Surveillance States
Slingerland critiques the implications of a surveillance state, discussing how the original intentions behind utilitarianism can morph into oppressive systems. He reflects on the historical context of these ideas and their relevance in contemporary society, emphasizing the need for a balance between regulation and individual freedoms.
"but a confusion or Buddhist confusion flavored ideology so it's these other schools have survived they just aren't as prestigious or officially is recognized as Confucianism and taoism yeah it's an in..."
Rationality vs. Intuition
This segment delves into the limits of rationality as Slingerland shares his personal journey from a rationalist perspective to a more nuanced understanding of intuition. He discusses the importance of integrating unconscious processes into decision-making and the role of experience in honing intuition, referencing the work of Will Storr on storytelling and human behavior.
"what do you think about like sort of so are a lot of these ideas that kind of were originally meant for one type of State rule like we're talking about the Chinese or societal mores if you will do the..."
Lessons from Dogs: Natural Daoist Sages
Slingerland draws parallels between the behavior of dogs and Daoist philosophy, suggesting that dogs exemplify spontaneity and naturalness. He reflects on the wisdom that can be gained from observing dogs, emphasizing the importance of being present and embracing the moment, which aligns with the principles of Daoism.
"dispositions and aptitude and you know passions access to things and let the great ideas flow now I realize that is also somewhat utopian and it's in its thinking process we have to have rules and reg..."
Choking Under Pressure
This segment addresses the phenomenon of 'choking' in high-pressure situations, particularly in sports. Slingerland explains how overthinking can disrupt performance and how engaging the PFC can lead to failure. He shares insights on how to maintain a balance between cognitive control and instinctual responses to enhance performance.
"without abstraction we don't know anything about quantum physics we don't know any which by the way quantum physics when like if you like overdose on Lao Tzu and then you think oh I'll do some science..."
The Evolutionary Benefits of Alcohol
Slingerland discusses the evolutionary origins of our attraction to alcohol, arguing that despite its dangers, it offers adaptive benefits. He highlights how alcohol can temporarily reduce the influence of the PFC, allowing for greater creativity and insight. This segment explores the complex relationship between alcohol consumption and cognitive flexibility.
"rationality but I made a point that I thought was really excellent and it was the hot and cold distinction in other words I guess I guess Danny kenneman would call it a system Learning System too but ..."
Creativity and Childlike Thinking
In this segment, Slingerland examines how the maturation of the PFC affects creativity, noting that children excel in lateral thinking tasks. He discusses the trade-offs of cognitive development and how adults can benefit from temporarily lowering PFC activity to regain a childlike openness to new ideas. This insight is vital for fostering creativity in adulthood.
"and system two cognition we don't want to we don't want the world run by a bunch of four-year-olds and adult bodies right right girl it's a very recently in the United States somebody without a PFC ba..."
Using Alcohol for Creative Insights
Slingerland shares anecdotes about how alcohol can facilitate creative insights by dampening the PFC's control. He discusses the balance between rational planning and intuitive thinking, suggesting that a little intoxication can help access deeper levels of creativity. This segment highlights the potential benefits of using substances to enhance cognitive flexibility.
"automatic and once you get really good once you become an expert then system two does become the enemy so this is what happens choking there's really good luck it's got a great book called choke I thi..."
The Apocryphal Stories of Drunken Wisdom
This segment features Slingerland recounting historical anecdotes about leaders making decisions while intoxicated. He reflects on the cultural significance of these stories and their implications for understanding the relationship between alcohol and decision-making. The discussion underscores the idea that sometimes unconventional methods can lead to profound insights.
"so I think the key is knowing what the function of the PFC is in what kinds of situations we need it but also in what kind of situations it's good to shut it down and that's where you know humans deve..."
The Unexpected Spark of Creativity
Slingerland shares his personal experience of writing while under the influence of alcohol, describing how it led to unexpected bursts of creativity. He emphasizes the importance of allowing spontaneity in the creative process and how breaking from conventional thinking can yield engaging results. This segment highlights the value of embracing unpredictability in creativity.
"trunk so what I needed was actually something unexpected and catchy and so I was on a business trip this was pre-covered and I was meeting some colleagues but I had a couple hours before dinner and so..."
Rational Planning vs. Intuitive Decision-Making
In this concluding segment, Slingerland discusses the balance between rational planning and intuitive decision-making. He reflects on the importance of trusting one's instincts while also recognizing the value of structured thought. This discussion encapsulates the overarching theme of the episode, emphasizing the need for a harmonious relationship between rationality and intuition.
"the kind of just coming in from a weird Direction thing that's hard to get on coffee yeah just you know thinking completely in a PFC driven way yeah I'd love that so I will tell him I'm very happy tha..."
The Role of Alcohol in Creativity
Edward Slingerland discusses how the maturation of the prefrontal cortex (PFC) affects creativity and cognition. He explains that as the PFC develops, it can limit creative thinking by focusing too narrowly on task-relevant information. Slingerland suggests that alcohol can temporarily reduce the PFC's influence, allowing for greater creative insights and lateral thinking, akin to the cognitive flexibility of a child.
"that you know our PSC maturation so basically as our POC is maturing we get less and less creative and this is because Evolution's got this trade-off design problem where it wants us to have cold cogn..."
Animals and Alcohol: A Shared Instinct
Slingerland shares an anecdote about a horse that waits for apples to ferment before eating them, highlighting that the pursuit of alcohol isn't unique to humans. He explains that many species seek out fermented fruits due to their caloric content, suggesting an evolutionary basis for alcohol consumption that transcends human behavior.
"that you know this the story is probably apocryphal but it captures a really important function of alcohol which is that it's a way to temporarily turn down our PFC so that we can get creative insight..."
The Uniqueness of Human Alcohol Production
Slingerland argues that while many species enjoy alcohol, humans are unique in our large-scale production and cultural integration of alcohol into social rituals. He explores the historical significance of alcohol in human society, suggesting that it has been central to our social interactions and cultural practices since the dawn of civilization.
"yeah so you know how fruit that has fermented enough that it's starting to produce alcohol it's got a lot of sugar in it too and a lot of calories right and alcohol is actually a very important source..."
Alcohol vs. Psychedelics: Different Tools for Insight
In this segment, Slingerland contrasts the effects of alcohol and psychedelics on creativity and cognition. He explains that while both substances can facilitate creative insights, psychedelics do so in a more extreme manner, often leading to a complete disassociation from reality. He discusses how each substance serves different purposes in cultural contexts.
"the puzzle I want to answer is why are we so intent on doing this yeah and you know people whatever people go to a place if they're you know colonizing a new area or their Frontier the first thing the..."
Psychedelics as Catalysts for Cultural Evolution
Slingerland elaborates on the role of psychedelics in cultural evolution, likening their effects to genetic mutations that can lead to significant insights. He discusses how psychedelics can produce random ideas, with the potential for valuable insights emerging from the chaos, while alcohol serves a more moderate role in everyday creativity and social bonding.
"because they exerted their efforts there and then that kind of led to oh you know maybe we should like start growing food too yeah so so I am fascinated by that idea I had a a scholar named Brian mare..."
Alcohol and Trust: The Social Glue
Slingerland explores the historical role of alcohol in fostering trust and cooperation among humans. He argues that alcohol has been a crucial tool for social bonding, enabling individuals to collaborate and navigate complex social interactions. He compares human social structures to those of social insects, emphasizing the unique ways humans have developed cooperation and trust through shared rituals involving alcohol.
"need to go into desert and eat peyote yeah is it just that the beginning of my book proposal socks and I need to come up with a catcher beginning maybe I'll just have Negroni it really is humans use d..."
The Role of Alcohol in Social Bonding
Slingerland explores how alcohol serves as a social lubricant, facilitating cooperation among individuals with differing interests. He explains that alcohol down-regulates the prefrontal cortex, making it harder to lie and enhancing pro-social feelings, which is crucial for maintaining social relations in human interactions.
"and eat our crackers and behave for the most part so humans are really domesticated and obedient and cooperative and one of the experience it's how we managed to do that especially with none it's coll..."
In Vino Veritas: Truth in Alcohol
The conversation delves into the Latin phrase 'In Vino Veritas,' as Slingerland examines the complexities of honesty when under the influence of alcohol. He discusses how alcohol can reveal spontaneous feelings that may not reflect true beliefs, highlighting the dual nature of alcohol as both a truth serum and a disinhibitor.
"down regular in the PFC is that it's hard for you to lie it's a kind of Truth here so if I've down regulated your lying is a really cognitively challenging task if I'm trying to lie to you about somet..."
The Dual Nature of Honesty
Slingerland reflects on the layers of honesty influenced by the prefrontal cortex, contrasting animalistic impulses with empathetic responses. He considers how cognitive control shapes our interactions and the potential for alcohol to reveal underlying truths, while also acknowledging the risks of disinhibition.
"of course in vino veritas is a well-known Latin phrase for good reason I wondered as I was getting ready for this and going through some of my notes on your stuff I did wonder though about like the id..."
The Value of Unfiltered Truth
In this segment, Slingerland discusses the importance of understanding human behavior when the 'playground monitor' is absent, suggesting that alcohol can provide insights into people's true nature. He acknowledges the potential dangers of excessive inebriation while recognizing the value of spontaneous honesty in certain contexts.
"unconstrained emotional core if we shut off the prefrontal cortex right we are going into a completely different part of our being and we've all had the experience of like getting drunk in vino verita..."
Two Ideas for Humanity
As the podcast wraps up, Slingerland shares two impactful ideas for humanity: 'stop pushing so hard' and 'go walk in the woods.' He emphasizes that adopting these simple practices could significantly improve individual well-being and contribute to a better world.
"know I love you guys you're my best friend and you're like in retrospect but it is you know there's something we humans seem to find it useful to get a a read of what people are like when the playgrou..."