"economics says look people are rational we make decisions with no emotion we use lots of computational energy weigh the pros and cons I mean obviously that's just not true it ignores the whole field o..."

"and so Behavioral Science and behavioral design basically uses those insights on psychology to actually apply it within real world problems welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to ..."

"with that I bring you Kristen Berman hey Ashley head of marketing and flat file how many B2B SAS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers at least 40 and how many of ..."

"right which is super common considering customer files are chock full of unexpected data and formatting they'll leave I am zero percent surprised to hear that I've consistently seen that improving onb..."

"flatfile.com Lenny [Music] this episode is brought to you by Whimsical when I asked product managers and designers on Twitter what software they use most Whimsical is always one of the most mentioned ..."

"irrational labs and so to set a little context for folks can you just talk about what it is you all do at irrational Labs yeah so a rational Labs we are a Behavioral Science Consulting and Design shop..."

"cars to YouTube and so that was a big piece of the early work and then recently we've done work with Tick Tock where we've tried to it actually accomplished decreasing misinformation share by 24 we wo..."

"let's start with what is behavioral economic so basically behavioral economics is a reaction to academics so economics says look people are rational we make decisions with no emotion we use lots of co..."

"and behavioral design behavioral economics yeah great question so you know one one story that recently happened is actually a surprise that happened to the client the partner was shocked and actually ..."

"results and what happened nothing so they were shocked the team was shocked remember this is like a big investment of time an effort took a lot of energy to build zero change in average spend zero cha..."

"example one time where this is just not true that you can actually increase friction and increase conversion so actually Lenny have I ever told you about my mother nope okay so now you're thinking abo..."

"conversion we actually did something where we put a quiz on a partner's website and it's title care which is basically a a device that lets you remotely connect to a physician it's a little bit hard t..."

"finishing is that right exactly yeah and I would say probably most teams can do this you just you can replace the carousel like the carousel you know in something where it tells you the benefit but we..."

"the folks on the team thought that it was an easy question but most questions when you're asking people kind of wait an open text field is just not an easy question right hate those open text fields a..."

"before we dive even deeper into more examples I wanted to zoom out for a moment and I'm curious just how did you even get into behavioral economics you said you worked with Danner Ellie how did all th..."

"you said you were running an embedded team within Google to work on this sort of thing amen yeah so so basically Google it's kind of a first mover and thinking about how important understanding Behavi..."

"useful in improving product experiences and product design like what's kind of the handful that ends up being most useful totally and there are so so many mistakes that humans make and we can call the..."

"behavior in order to change Behavior you have to pick a behavior that you want to change so companies are really good at outcomes but just not as sharp at picking the behavior when I say Behavior I me..."

"so that's a first be second B again is probably pretty obvious and it's very critical it's just barriers so we need to reduce the barriers to doing the behavior there are two types of barriers we look..."

"to open up Uber and say like maybe it'll come faster and so when there is uncertainty in our life we either look for other options or we just don't make a decision at all right this is by the way very..."

"sharing those we can let's keep going cool so the third B is benefits so this is where you want to increase the not just the benefits but the immediate benefits of doing something so we are all presen..."

"I know sauna has famous for that little unicorn confetti thing right for like making you feel really good when you complete some yeah you know I don't know how much emphasis to put on these kind of li..."

"I want to dive into a couple case studies of companies that I know you've worked with maybe before that I thought it'd be good to ask this question about just like the dark side of this stuff I imagin..."

"line yeah it's a great question I think the answer to this really with many things in life comes down to incentives so what are the incentives of the product teams of you your manager the team working..."

"how anything is used much less behavioral economics with these tactics but generally what's the success of your team you may not have a clear answer to this but any advice for setting those incentives..."

"awesome are you hiring or on the flip side are you looking for a new opportunity well either way check out lennysjobs.com Talent if you're a hiring manager you can sign up and get access to hundreds o..."

"check out lennysjobs.com Talent so there's two companies that you work with that I use and I'm curious what you did for them and how you worked with them one is Tick Tock and then the other is one med..."

"annoyed it's harder to use the elevator and people went to the stairs 16 seconds interesting number 16 we can't wait 16 and then it's actually kind of long though you're standing there it's building y..."

"something how do you intervene so we did this literature review we came up with a hypothesis and we had probably 30 different ways to implement this because the hypothesis is just a starting point and..."

"there a reason you did ux oriented test versus testing the product is it just because they weren't ready to build an experiment in product yet yeah we actually only got two conditions in product which..."

"actually have fun exercise that people could do with their teams is if you ask everyone on the team what engagement meets separately you can compare answers and most likely people are saying different..."

"also difficult like what what is this company or thing and where should I what should I go to them for and then the benefits right what are the benefits and the benefits for using more medical is you ..."

"appointments I have appointments yeah yeah onboarding I don't know if I went through that when I joined one medic this is recent yep okay cool yeah by the way one Medical's awesome as you're talking I..."

"then when they are back in land them on the spot that they were at so wealthfront has said you know one of their key insights was when people dropped out of the flow you know normally they would just ..."

"where we worked with a company called study and this was a fintech app and we're helping people to sign up or sync their bank accounts syncing their bank account is a required step in any kind of fint..."

"with caution people will not use and love your app if you're putting error messages all over it that makes sense I think you mentioned this so I haven't mentioned but you wrote a guest post for my new..."

"level where you saw two levels of status in clubhouse there were the people who were friends with the people on stage and then there was everyone else and so that was like a motivator to be friends wi..."

"understanding this are non-profits so we worked with one company me a while ago we tried to get them to add a deadline because they were trying to help people sign up for interviews so like they were ..."

"you suggest to say a PM leading a team that wants to implement some of these principles yeah I would probably start from the process angle you know we have the 3B framework which again the most import..."

"intervention can you talk a bit more about this behavioral diagnosis step like what actually happens there there's kind of two steps one you can outline the full kind of high level flow where you're s..."

"you're trying to change it wow that sounds really useful so you go through the product make a screenshot of every little step and then connect what barriers keeping them from progressing is that rough..."

"are those the same thing um maybe I'm not interested no that that's that's perfect yeah so we have a thanks for the tea up bloody uh appreciate it we have a boot camp course which basically is a self-..."

"send that and we will link to it in the show notes just a couple more details in this course how often do you run it how long does it take generally for folks to take yeah so once a year we'll do a co..."

"we've reached our exciting lightning round so I'm just going to ask you a bunch of quick questions whatever comes to mind fire away and we'll just go through them real fast sound good great okay cool ..."