
53 segments available
Maor Shlomo is the founder of Base44, an AI-powered app builder that he bootstrapped to an over $80 million acquisition by Wix in just six months. As a solo founder (with severe ADHD), he hit $1 million ARR just three weeks after launch and grew the product to more than 400,000 users, all while navigating two wars in Israel and never raising a dollar of outside funding. *What you’ll learn:* 1. The growth playbook that took Base44 from three friends to 400,000 users without spending any money on marketing 2. How he hasn’t written a single line of front-end code in three months—and how to structure your code repository to make it easier for AI to write your code 3. His AI productivity stack that allowed him to compete against heavily funded competitors 4. Why being a solo founder in AI might be the ultimate advantage (and the wedding story that almost killed the business) 5. The story of signing the $80M acquisition deal while war broke out with Iran 6. How to identify when to sell vs. stay independent (and why Maor chose acquisition despite being highly profitable) 7. The counterintuitive product decision that tripled activation by removing a “helpful” feature 8. How building in public on LinkedIn drove more growth than any paid channel *Transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-base44-bootstrapped-startup-success-story-maor-shlomo *My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/167384119/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation *Brought to you by:* Sauce—Turn customer pain into product revenue: http://sauce.app/lenny Dscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to production: https://www.dscout.com/ Contentsquare—Create better digital experiences: https://contentsquare.com/lenny/ *Where to find Maor Shlomo:* • X: https://x.com/ms_base44 • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maor-shlomo-1088b4144/ *Where to find Lenny:* • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ *In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Introduction to Maor and Base44 (08:16) The origin story: how Base44 came to be (14:55) Bootstrapping and solo founding: challenges and insights (22:52) Productivity hacks and tech stack for solo founders (27:23) How to get started using Base44 (28:47) Thoughts on raising money (34:05) Distribution in the age of AI (36:09) Ambition and goals (40:05) Growth strategies: from first users to thousands (51:32) Building in public (57:42) The solo founder journey (01:00:23) Community support (01:03:23) Hackathons and partnerships (01:06:42) The importance of velocity in product development (01:08:20) Technical stack and infrastructure insights (01:15:24) Activation lessons (01:18:19) The acquisition journey with Wix (01:25:14) Final thoughts and advice for founders *Referenced:* • Base44: https://base44.com/ • Retool: https://retool.com/ • Tzofim: https://www.israelscouts.org/ • Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/ • RescueTime: https://www.rescuetime.com/ • Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/ • Wix: https://www.wix.com/ • The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell • Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika • Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons • Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-replit-amjad-masad • Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch • Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com • Yoav Orlev on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yoav-orlev-4a044b72 • WhatsApp: https://www.whatsapp.com/ • Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/ • Google: https://about.google/ • MongoDB: https://www.mongodb.com/ • Deloitte: https://www.deloitte.com/ • Render: Render.com • Claude 4: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-4 • Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app • Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com/ _Production and marketing by https://penname.co/._ _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com._ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Maor Shlomo shares his incredible journey of building Base44, an AI-powered app builder, from nothing to an $80 million acquisition by Wix in just six months. He reflects on the initial goal of reaching $1.5 million in revenue and how they surpassed it in just four weeks, highlighting the rapid growth and success of his startup.
"In six months, he went from zero, basically nothing to selling this company for 80 million plus dollars to Wix. The funny thing is that base 44, for the first time in my life, was not trying to build ..."
In this segment, Maor discusses the unique challenges and insights of being a solo founder. He emphasizes the importance of managing AI teams and how he hasn't written any front-end code in three months, showcasing the shift in how startups can operate with AI assistance.
"like the journey that you've been on over the last 6 months is kind of like the dream for a lot of founders. How long were you actually solo? The first person started a month and a half before the acq..."
Maor reveals his strategy for acquiring the first users of Base44, starting with three close friends who provided feedback and helped refine the product. He emphasizes the importance of ensuring user enjoyment before scaling, highlighting a user-centric approach to growth.
"users? I started with three users, really close friends. I got them to sit down with me every other day around the table and they would use the the tool. They will try to build something. It will bre..."
Lenny introduces Maor as a unique guest, noting that his journey represents the dream of many founders who wish to build impactful products without massive teams or funding. Maor's story of bootstrapping Base44 and achieving rapid success serves as inspiration for aspiring entrepreneurs.
"someone. Today my guest is Mayor Schlommo. This is a unique episode because I almost never have conversations with earlystage founders. I made an exception because Mayor's journey is in many ways the ..."
Maor shares how the overwhelming support for Base44 on Product Hunt led to its rapid growth, illustrating the significance of community and product love in the startup ecosystem. He discusses how genuine user interest can propel a product's success beyond expectations.
"solo founder. It was just him for most of those 6 months. He never raised any money. He bootstrapped it and built it purely off profits. When he launched it on Product Hunt, it got so much love that t..."
In this segment, Maor reflects on the origins of Base44, driven by a personal need to help his girlfriend create a website. He emphasizes the importance of solving real problems and how his experiences with the scouts organization highlighted the demand for accessible software solutions.
"super productive as a solo founder with severe ADHD. Also, the super important insight that everyone needs to hear about how he came up with the idea and then refined the idea. also just a bunch of co..."
Maor discusses the two key triggers that led to the creation of Base44: the need for a user-friendly website builder and the realization that AI could simplify the coding process. He shares his vision of empowering users to create applications without needing extensive technical knowledge.
"that, I bring you Mayor Schlommo. This episode is brought to you by Sauce. The way teams turn feedback into product impact is stuck in the past. vague reports, static taxonomies, unactionable insights..."
Reflecting on his previous experience as CEO of Explorium, Maor explains his desire to return to building products rather than managing a large organization. He highlights the joy of coding and creating, which fueled his passion for launching Base44.
"support tickets, churn reasons, and lost deal, surfacing the biggest product issues and opportunities in real time. It then routes them to the right teams to turn signals into PRDS, prototypes, and ev..."
Maor shares his perspective on entering a crowded market with Base44. He discusses the importance of having a unique angle and how approaching the startup journey with a mindset of low risk and high energy can lead to unexpected success.
"prevented millions in churn. You can too at s.app/lenny. Sauce, built for AI product teams. Don't get left behind. This episode is brought to you by Dcout. Design teams today are expected to move fast..."
In this segment, Maor emphasizes the significance of enjoying the entrepreneurial journey. He reflects on the advice he received about building something you would use and the importance of passion in driving success, reinforcing the idea that enjoyment can lead to greater productivity.
"interviews, surveys, or in the wild fieldwork, Dcot makes it easy to connect with real users and get real insights fast. You can even test your Figma prototypes directly inside the platform. No juggli..."
Maor Shlomo emphasizes the importance of creating products that solve real problems and resonate with personal needs. He shares insights on the significance of enjoying the process of building and how this mindset can lead to faster progress. By focusing on developing products that he personally uses, he was able to attract initial users and maintain motivation throughout his entrepreneurial journey.
"useful to someone. It's I have a real problem. I need I want to solve it and nothing out there is good enough, so I'm going to build it myself. Uh, the other is you said that you're having fun. Feels ..."
In this segment, Maor discusses the unique challenges and advantages of being a solo founder. He reflects on the difficulty of finding co-founders and shares lessons learned from his experience. He highlights that while solo founding can be isolating, it also allows for greater control and the potential for significant financial outcomes, especially when bootstrapping a business.
"much faster. Uh, but also doing something that you love. I think I was the CEO of Exploring for 7 years. It was such a fantastic experience. It had so many highs and lows, but at some at some point it..."
Maor explains the advantages of bootstrapping a startup, including reduced stress and the ability to maintain profitability without external funding. He contrasts the experience of being a bootstrapper with that of raising funds, emphasizing the freedom and energy that comes from self-sustainability. He introduces the concept of being 'default alive' and how it positively impacts a founder's mindset.
"like if you're building something that has the potential to be viral uh to target the masses. And so it doesn't really matter if you're like funded or not. You just like build a great product that peo..."
Maor shares the challenges of managing a startup alone, particularly the stress of maintaining software and server operations without a team. He recounts a humorous yet stressful incident during his brother's wedding when he had to address a security breach at Base44. This story illustrates the unique pressures faced by solo founders and the importance of resilience in overcoming such challenges.
"uh raising so much fund even if your investors are great and my investors were awesome and they were always supportive and so on but even so I feel like uh being bootstrap like no other money except o..."
In this segment, Maor discusses the necessity of brutal prioritization as a solo founder. He explains the difficulty of balancing product development with marketing efforts and the importance of focusing on tasks that drive growth. He shares insights on how context switching can hinder productivity and the strategies he employs to stay on track.
"Um, I had one funny, now I look at it as a funny moment where um, I was at my brother's wedding and we were doing the photo shoots and I was actually the one actually was supposed to also do the cerem..."
Maor reveals his productivity stack, including tools that help him manage his time and focus, especially given his ADHD. He discusses how he uses Base44 to automate processes and streamline content creation, allowing him to maintain efficiency while building his startup. This segment highlights the role of technology in enhancing productivity for solo founders.
"those like moments that the whole thing is like you're not able to share it with anyone, share the burden even or the stress or put anyone on top of it and say, "Hey, you know what? I'm out for today...."
Maor explains how he built internal tools using Base44 to enhance his workflow and content generation. He shares his process for crafting social media posts and how he tailored the tool to fit his unique style and needs. This segment showcases the flexibility of Base44 and the importance of creating adaptive software solutions for individual workflows.
"thing that kills your business if if you're not managing it right. Okay, let me follow that thread. That's a really interesting topic. Uh so what is in your stack of productivity for yourself and the..."
In this segment, Maor elaborates on his iterative process for content creation, emphasizing the importance of consistency and audience engagement. He discusses how he uses AI to refine his writing and adapt his messaging across different platforms. This approach not only streamlines his workflow but also enhances his connection with his audience.
"had so again for example for my uh uh social post and so on there's like a process that I would follow and maybe no one else would would would follow that and so vibe code the custom app for that was ..."
In this segment, Maor reflects on the challenges of bootstrapping Base44 while competing against well-funded companies. He shares insights on profitability and the importance of making noise in a crowded market. Maor highlights the success of a hackathon initiative that not only drove growth but also contributed positively to the community.
"software. Uh I heard malleable software is another way to describe this. Let me I want to talk about growth but a couple more things real quick. this idea of bootstrapping. I'm curious. So essentially..."
Maor explains his decision to sell Base44 to Wix, citing the rapid evolution of the market and the potential for greater impact through partnership. He discusses the strategic advantages of aligning with a larger company and how this acquisition could help Base44 scale effectively in a competitive landscape.
"room to compete and even though it was small I was seeing that the the users that come to me stick like that come to B 44 stick with B 44 even though they're very familiar with like the rest of the co..."
This segment delves into the balance between ambition and the desire for independence as a solo founder. Maor shares his journey of building Base44 without external funding and the satisfaction of achieving significant income while maintaining control over his vision. He reflects on the importance of following one's passion and the unexpected success that can arise from it.
"uh partner up with Wix. There's like plenty of reasons to do that. We can we can touch on that later, but like same DNA, same customer base, like they know what they're doing. They're seeing and and o..."
Maor discusses how AI has transformed the development landscape, allowing solo founders to manage complex projects without extensive coding knowledge. He emphasizes that funding is not the sole determinant of success and that innovative approaches can lead to significant achievements in the tech industry.
"Again, they're like great teams and very well funded and a lot of money being poured into. Um but then like throughout time I saw that I'm able to keep the pace if not even have the like a faster pace..."
In this segment, Maor shares his experience with organic growth strategies for Base44, highlighting the effectiveness of building in public and leveraging personal connections. He reflects on the importance of user feedback and the viral potential of a product that resonates with its audience.
"you just shared is amazing that you've haven't written any you said JavaScript or HTML in three months which is half the lifetime of this company which sold for $80 million and more potentially. It fe..."
Maor emphasizes the significance of domain knowledge and expertise in carving out a niche within a competitive market. He shares insights on how understanding customer needs and leveraging personal connections can lead to successful product distribution and growth.
"organically and built in public and so even distribution is is very different but yeah if you have an interesting take on any domain base 44's first user was one of my best friends like we grew up tog..."
Maor reflects on his journey with Base44, discussing the initial goals and the evolution of his ambitions. He shares how the success of the product led him to reconsider his approach to growth and impact, ultimately leading to the decision to pursue a larger vision through acquisition.
"that's a hard one to get. Uh but also a world that's changing a lot. Yeah. And I I love that you did it with no funding. The other thought here as you're talking is it feels like you could have kept ..."
Maor Shlomo shares his initial strategy for acquiring the first users of Base44, emphasizing the importance of leveraging personal connections. He discusses how he engaged close friends to test the product, iterating based on their feedback, and highlights the significance of organic growth through user sharing before investing in marketing.
"the first thousand users? What are the the levers used there? What are the tactics? So, let's start with 10. How'd you get your first 10 users? Just begging people close to me that I feel like that th..."
In this segment, Maor reflects on his early product launch experiences, including a less-than-successful Product Hunt launch. He emphasizes that even failed launches can provide valuable insights and contribute to user growth, illustrating how he gained new users and paid customers despite initial setbacks.
"try to launch this thing or try to like get more people to use it because if you try to do it beforehand I feel like you're going to waste a lot of time and resources on just like having a very revolv..."
Maor discusses the concept of building in public and how sharing his journey on LinkedIn resonated with his audience. He explains the importance of honesty in his posts, showcasing both successes and challenges, which helped him connect with other builders and foster a supportive community around Base44.
"and we got the first user to pay. This was an insane an insane feeling because I'm like an entrepreneur coming for like the enterprise space. I was thinking that this is insane. Why would anyone pay f..."
As Base44 began to scale, Maor highlights the challenges he faced, including technical hurdles and the need for community feedback. He shares how engaging with users through focus groups and hackathons helped him refine the product and maintain a strong connection with his growing user base.
"the writing the nicest things people have tried like started writing like hey you changed my life I wanted to build I had that like those ideas throughout my life I didn't have a like an an ability to..."
Maor emphasizes the importance of building products for specific user groups rather than adhering strictly to traditional market segmentation. He shares insights on how focusing on the needs of diverse users who share a common goal can lead to better product development and user satisfaction.
"for the credit thing like did the rest. Okay, so this is kind of like the whole journey. I know there's a few other elements I want to touch on, but let me point out a few things that stood out to me ..."
In this segment, Maor discusses the role of authenticity in his marketing efforts. He reflects on how being a solo founder without VC backing allowed him to present a genuine narrative that resonated with his audience, ultimately leading to increased engagement and interest in Base44.
"all this advice, you need a very narrow focus. You got to have a very specific role and company size and all these things. you're like, "Okay, maybe not. Maybe if your tool is something that a lot of ..."
Maor discusses the importance of selecting the right platform for growth, sharing his experience with LinkedIn as the most effective channel for Base44. He contrasts this with his less successful attempts on Twitter, highlighting the need for founders to focus their efforts on the platforms that yield the highest return on investment.
"like a rough sense of just like I don't know how large your network was. What's like a way to think about that so folks are like, "Oh, wow. I'm nowhere near that." I don't think it was very big. Um, ..."
Maor reveals a unique tactic for encouraging users to share their experiences with Base44. By offering credits for sharing posts, he fosters community involvement and amplifies word-of-mouth marketing. This strategy not only builds loyalty but also enhances the visibility of the product.
"least for me. That is really great advice. It aligns with what I often see with traditional growth engines. You there's like SEO, there's pay, there's sales, there's verity, word of mouth. And usually..."
Reflecting on his solo founder journey, Maor shares when he decided to hire his first team member just before the acquisition. He emphasizes the importance of bringing in skilled individuals who can contribute across various roles, highlighting the shift from a solo operation to a more structured team as the company scales.
"there support is a whole different topic that we can speak about for hours. Like how do you run support when you're solo which is a huge topic but like they would send um I would say hey write a post ..."
Maor discusses the intricacies of the acquisition deal with Wix, explaining how it was structured to benefit both parties. He shares insights into the financial and personal motivations behind the deal, emphasizing the importance of aligning interests for a successful acquisition.
"also at some point like once I I like I like I saw that the chances chances of this happening are grow. So yeah, I hired like the best people I know cuz I know that like I have now this um few years i..."
In this segment, Maor reflects on the significance of community support in the growth of Base44. He shares anecdotes about how community engagement and feedback have been crucial in shaping the product and driving user adoption, reinforcing the idea that a strong community can be a powerful growth engine.
"interest and like building English to be as big as possible. So in the month before the acquisition uh I had the team starting to scale but also basically for like became more profitable that I could ..."
Maor shares his experience organizing a hackathon aimed at building apps for social good. He discusses how this initiative not only attracted thousands of participants but also garnered sponsorships from major companies, showcasing the potential of hackathons to drive engagement and community building.
"starting out like at some point I was like his name is Yav. Um some point I was telling her hey Yav uh you take golf now and I was like I haven't done golf anywhere right no you take now like try and ..."
In this segment, Maor highlights the positive impact of the hackathon on participants and the community. He shares inspiring stories of projects developed during the event, emphasizing how accessible software development can empower individuals and organizations to create meaningful solutions.
"but I remember I remember first like the the community around base 44 again is like one of the most incredible communities that I've seen is a very strong one and like they're all in like the writing ..."
Maor discusses the concept of velocity in product development as a key driver of growth. He explains how rapid iteration and frequent updates can keep users engaged and invested in the product, reinforcing the idea that speed and responsiveness are crucial for success in a competitive landscape.
"kind of like the the community rally uh for for this. Speaking of community, did was that all in WhatsApp or did you manage this community? WhatsApp is is a surprisingly really good tool to get feedb..."
Maor Shlomo discusses how velocity acts as a growth engine for Base44. He emphasizes the importance of rapid product evolution and public engagement, noting that frequent updates and transparency attract user interest and foster attachment to the project. This segment highlights how maintaining a fast-paced development cycle can solve various product and marketing challenges.
"didn't already mention? The last piece, but people talk about that a lot is that um velocity eventually is a growth engine. So like part of like building in public is you want to put content out there..."
In this segment, Maor shares insights on the tech stack behind Base44, emphasizing the use of Render.com for cloud infrastructure and MongoDB for its flexibility in handling changing data schemas. He explains how these tools facilitate rapid development and deployment, making them ideal for a solo founder navigating a complex ecosystem.
"growth tool. That is a really good point. Uh clearly everyone in the space is understands this as well. I want to talk about the acquisition piece, but a couple quick questions that have been on my mi..."
Maor reveals his strategy for utilizing AI in coding, advocating for minimal code generation to reduce errors. He discusses the importance of a well-structured code repository that allows AI to function effectively, sharing his preference for JavaScript over TypeScript to enhance AI's coding capabilities. This segment provides valuable insights for founders looking to integrate AI into their development processes.
"infrastructure. I manage the both the website, the platform and applications itself because base for base for4 is like a complex ecosystem. You have that the user applications that have to be isolated..."
In this segment, Maor explains the high-level infrastructure he built for Base44, which streamlines feature implementation and minimizes the amount of code the AI needs to generate. He emphasizes the importance of creating a robust environment that supports AI-driven development, ensuring that the AI can efficiently handle user requests while maintaining flexibility.
"something like that. And so I built a very high level very opinionated infrastructure like code infrastructure, right? It takes care of like the entire thing. When you build a new feature, it takes ca..."
Maor discusses his approach to using multiple AI models for different tasks within Base44. He highlights the strengths of models like Claude and Gemini for various coding challenges, explaining how he routes user prompts to the appropriate model. This segment offers a tactical look at optimizing AI resources for enhanced productivity in software development.
"instead of like separating the front end and the back end. It's easier to give like the contest context to the to the AI of like both what's in the back end, what's in the front end. Um, besides that,..."
Maor shares insights on user activation and the importance of quickly guiding users to their 'aha' moment. He reflects on a counterintuitive lesson learned: simplifying the user experience can sometimes lead to better engagement than offering overly complex features. This segment is crucial for founders aiming to enhance user retention and satisfaction.
"Yeah. Well, all of those tools basically for Ker all the vibe coding tools I use the same uh paradigm or I don't know if you call it or method which is like you have the heavy guns which is usually ei..."
In this segment, Maor recounts the process leading to Base44's acquisition by Wix. He discusses the initial conversations, the chemistry with Wix's management team, and the importance of a good working relationship post-acquisition. This segment provides valuable insights into the dynamics of startup acquisitions and the significance of personal connections in business deals.
"user flows like almost like a PRD or like but something that's more digestible to folks who have like are not coming from from the space. Uh so it will generate user flows. it will show it to you like..."
Maor elaborates on the negotiation process for the acquisition, emphasizing the importance of being open to both outcomes—selling or remaining independent. He shares his thoughts on the structure of the deal, highlighting how it allows him to remain invested in Base44's success. This segment offers practical advice for founders considering acquisition opportunities.
"know, the work only begins. You know, you know, you're not like I'm off. You have to keep building this thing. So, first of all, just had the acquisition conversation start. Weeks reached out. I think..."
Maor recounts the dramatic experience of signing the acquisition deal with Wix while a war broke out in Iran. He shares the urgency of the situation and how the unexpected events added pressure to an already significant moment in his life, ultimately leading to a successful conclusion.
"of the deal. Uh you could be a billionaire if it does well enough. I I don't know the deals, but in theory. Um let me ask so I know a part of the story also is that when you were signing the deal, the..."
In this segment, Maor expresses his deep gratitude for the Base44 community that supported him throughout his journey. He acknowledges the importance of community in achieving success and emphasizes his commitment to serving them better moving forward.
"Um yeah, it was as I said before, it was definitely the least Boeing month that I had in my life. I was just thinking back to exactly that phrase that you shared. Oh man, there's just so many parts o..."
Maor shares crucial advice for founders, stressing the importance of dedicating at least 50% of their time to tasks they enjoy and excel at. He highlights the significance of staying in one's 'zone of genius' to maintain motivation and drive in the entrepreneurial journey.
"grateful for the community. So if everyone's listening uh really I'm I'm hoping to serve everyone better. Um what not to do. Um yeah, there's there's plenty. Don't just make sure that at least 50% of ..."
Maor discusses the current landscape for entrepreneurs, asserting that now is the best time to build innovative products. He believes we are on the brink of a new era that could surpass the internet revolution, encouraging aspiring founders to pursue their passions and create impactful solutions.
"also met plenty of like uh really great and friendly CEOs uh even from the Israeli ecosystem like for for public companies, right? weeks and minded.com and it and so on and they're all like obviously ..."
In a light-hearted moment, Maor reveals the quirky story behind the name 'Base44.' He explains how it originated from a combination of his birthday and a desire to create a foundational platform for software development, showcasing the blend of personal significance and creativity in naming his startup.
"life-changing. And if not, at least you'll have uh very little regret in the future. Mayor, I'm going to skip the lighting round, but I'm going to give you because it's approaching midnight your time..."
As the conversation wraps up, Maor encourages listeners to try out Base44 and provide feedback. He reflects on the positive reception of the product and the potential for growth through user engagement, inviting the community to be part of the journey.
"That has an amazing story. I love I love that you like B 64 was cool, but I guess we'll all there's a reason 44 could be cool and it's not even base 42. There's all these like numbers around there tha..."