"I think people under resource SEO a lot of times and over resource ads so if you're Zillow you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars on ads or if you're eBay you're gonna spend tens of million..."

"welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from t..."

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"Ethan welcome to the podcast thank you for having me it's my pleasure so you're the CEO of graphite which is one of the top growth agencies in the world and you guys are especially good at SEO which t..."

"Commerce company in 2007 and I made what I thought were pretty nice designs and nobody was using them so I wanted to figure out how to get people to actually come we were buying ads but they're really..."

"I think that that's actually a a perfect profile even though it was somewhat unintentional I haven't heard of someone's company being bought by Whirlpool yet you've you've uh you're the first can you ..."

"myths about SEO they've been number one biggest myth are technical audits so we we have people reaching out saying we want to Tech audit and essentially what that is is give me a list of bugs to fix w..."

"kind of three things I want to focus on today one is when to SEO as a company two is how to SEO and three is just to cover a few important Concepts that folks need to understand if they want to be rea..."

"want to see at least I would say 1 000 visits a day roughly for for non-seo at least you have five visits that that that's very little and then the second thing I'll look at is the number of referring..."

"product competitor but it's an audience competitor and so these competitors basically can tell you what the size of that market is so that's how I think about the addressable market so ideally it's la..."

"okay wow there's so much there I'm gonna try to summarize because I think that was just like a million nuggets in one answer so the the way to think about this if I'm just kind of reflecting back what..."

"meeting like what are examples that when you say that usually direct and paid but um direct paid email social uh anything else and why is it that it's not from search so Google wants to see that you'r..."

"more Authority the more shares you have more Authority so the more of these signals the more you're a known brand in Google's eyes and the more Authority you have and the better you can rank so it's t..."

"benchmarks is the idea consider investing in this so that you can eventually start doubling down an SEO or is it just let it happen and kind of see if it even happens on its own you could do either us..."

"to awesome okay so that touches on when to start focusing on SEO and I'm going to ask you if there's anything else you should think about about the win but it feels like the other piece is even more i..."

"by Channel and then total times percent non-seo equals total total traffic from non-seal and you may have mentioned this but again what are heuristics looking at that data that's like okay this Market..."

"totals times what I think my conversion rate is equals sales compare that with other channels so how much could I get paid how much could I get Messier how much could I get from social and then that's..."

"content automatically like Glassdoor or Zillow or zapier is there something else that tells you this is going to be really useful this is going to be a good product to use for SEO or the opposite ones..."

"to compete uh in the address of Market if you have a ton of ugc like Glassdoor the scope is lower so the more ugc you have the more uh like prezillo the more addresses you have for a shopping site the..."

"good time I think to introduce these buckets of types of SEO you mentioned programmatically editorial can you just talk about what these buckets are and what they what they mean there's programmatic S..."

"generated based on information in their database for a site with ugc like Glassdoor that that is programmatically generated as well so that's programmatic SEO it's usually category pages and item Page..."

"so it sounds like essentially you're this detective trying to understand and reverse engineer what Google wants out of this General topic is that the way to think about it yes and the only thing that ..."

"engagement is Click through on the page that Google sends you or something else gets click through so it's if I typed in best camera what's the rate of clicking on my position versus somebody else so ..."

"pages is the number of URLs but you wouldn't want to index things that are thin or empty or we have a product that's out of stock and there's no description there's no reviews you might not want to ra..."

"then there's a bunch of other category pages so you basically take the 20 million Commerce keywords and then you group The keywords at the topic level and then you launch just those so that's how you ..."

"and so there's typically about any given page is typically going to rank or be able to rank for about 200 to 2 000 different keywords and um this is important for a few different reasons so the first ..."

"early on was able to outrank Food Network who has way more who had way more Authority in in food is because other companies had these gaps they were not looking at all 400 keywords and they didn't tal..."

"was going to ask you what the butter lettuce example is that how you how did you figure out that there was a big opportunity there it was like the the light bulb so what we do is we'll look for compet..."

"internal tools a graphite that that are not accessible but we used to power some of the stuff that I talked about where there's not already a tool so topics like I mentioned we have internal tools for..."

"take days so for you know for for a large site I could take a master and eBay it's probably one to four weeks was the rough timeline once you're really optimized so as a Founder you're probably listen..."

"this episode is brought to you by lemon.io you've achieved product Market fit you're able to activate engage and retain your customers but you don't have the engineers that you need to move as fast as..."

"of hands visit lemon.io Lenny when you're starting to invest in SEO say Founders listening to this and they're like yes SEO let's do it how do you recommend they hire for this person slash have somebo..."

"skill and there aren't that many people if you can hire somebody who's great at that I you know it I'm biased towards in-house even though I run a Consulting agency I'm still biased in-house so if you..."

"programmatic SEO person that reminds me of go cool gave this great advice that when you're looking for a specific function instead of trying to just create for everyone that does this skill look for t..."

"hypothesis so that's what I'm spending most of my time on is there an example that comes to mind of what you just described where maybe you test it too much and instead of just like looking at whether..."

"workflow amazing this SEO person so it's still a dedicated SEO person who's running an editorial SEO strategy and they have people that are doing the writing they're not usually doing the writing and ..."

"initial team look like is it an SEO person and a writer person is it just one person can do it all initially what do you suggest there probably someone doing strategy and someone writing you could do ..."

"special cases so a special case would be tool Pages like a mortgage calculator or a body mass index calculator for zapier has integration Pages Google Sheets plus Gmail so that's a special page type f..."

"there's so much uh meat to this I'm just my brain is is full but I have many more things I would ask so let me let me ask a few more things one is just like a meta question it feels like there's a lot..."

"uh to get the uh those answers awesome uh Luke's coming on this podcast actually and not too distant future looks great I'm looking forward to it yeah he's a big deal now you mentioned that some compa..."

"there's a bunch of topics I want to touch on before we wrap up this is already I think going to be the longest episode we've done but well worth it because rarely have I heard this much depth on such ..."

"Google's looking for which sites are disproportionately known they have disproportionate Authority for certain themes versus others and so those themes come from what is the anchor text of your backli..."

"and we see that a lot an example with master class is early on they had Authority for the names of the instructors like Gordon Ramsay but not for food in general and so we knew that if we had Authorit..."

"when people think about the idea of a topic you mentioned a bunch of examples butter lettuce Gordon Ramsay is is usually just like a topic versus a keyword a topic is like a one word or two word descr..."

"topic lives in a in an overall graph is is an ingredient graph or same with with Commerce you know uh Home Goods versus cameras there's a whole tree structure so that's how you can think about adjacen..."

"understood cool we'll definitely link to that uh that podcast a few more questions I definitely want to get through and then we can wrap up one is I know you're a big proponent of internal links and t..."

"enough to give it enough credit and um 90 plus sites don't have this the reason why is because internal link algorithms are typically either basset-based recommendation based or popular based so for f..."

"probably anything that I can recommend to companies as the quick win the thing to do at the at the start it's this what a nugget to have towards the end of this long conversation folks that are still ..."

"thing is uh there's a certain profile of a of a growth person or an SEO person who really likes to do things they're not supposed to do and to break things and to do things that are unconventional and..."

"Content generation where AI is really useful is actually all the other stuff that I talked about so if you think about the workflow of creating content you start with what should I be writing about wh..."

"do Ethan this episode is Bonkers I think there's millions of dollars worth of value in this last hour and a half that we've been here I am so appreciative of you making the time I'm gonna go eat some ..."