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How To Stand Out In A Dopamine Filled World (Ted Gioia Interview)
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Sign Up for "Writing Examples" and Learn From The Best Writing of All Time: https://www.writingexamples.com You may know Ted as a music historian, and the go-to expert on jazz. Or, you may know him as The Honest Broker on Substack. Either way, he’s the most erudite guest this show has ever seen. Ted gives a masterclass on the state of our culture at large. What’s up with our obsession with minimalism? Why do we value speed over beauty? Do we even realize that we’re distracting ourselves into oblivion? And, of course, what does this mean for us as writers? This episode zooms out to look at where we’ve been, where we are, and where we’re going. It’s an upheaval of mediocrity, a call-to-arms for the pursuit of excellence. If you’ve been wanting to reclaim the magic, the beauty, and the awe-struck wonder of the written word, this episode is for you. WRITE OF PASSAGE: Want to learn more about the next class for Write of Passage? Click here: https://writeofpassage.com/ SPEAKER LINKS: Website: https://www.tedgioia.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/tedgioia Newsletter: https://www.honest-broker.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTuRY58GauTM6wHA3_PPWRw Books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Ted-Gioia/author/B001ITVXZS TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:30 Minimalism vs Maximalism 00:04:55 The Honest Broker 00:08:45 Dishonest writing and crisis of trust 00:10:40 3 questions to ask 00:13:00 Editing 00:17:25 Conversational writing 00:22:50 Substack 00:25:30 Songwriting 00:36:15 Formulas 00:41:00 Shift in music and culture 00:57:00 Writing tactics and schedule 01:07:00 Domain expertise 01:16:30 Reawakening of creativity 01:22:00 Where do writers get inspiration? 01:26:45 Dreams 01:33:00 Fire round (Beatles, Bob Dylan, Taylor Swift, Eminem) 01:36:30 Problems with writing 01:41:00 Culture 01:44:15 Critics 01:46:00 Dopamine Culture and Distraction PODCAST LINKS: Website: https://writeofpassage.com/how-i-write Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2DjMSboniFAeGA8v9NpoPv ABOUT THE HOST: I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. How I Write is a podcast by Write of Passage // Production by Adam Soccolich
Segments Timeline
The Crisis of Trust in Writing
Ted Gioia discusses the pervasive dishonesty in contemporary writing and the resulting crisis of trust among readers. He shares his journey of launching the 'Honest Broker' Substack newsletter, emphasizing the importance of writing directly for the reader and avoiding formulaic approaches. Gioia reflects on the cultural shift towards dopamine-driven content and the need for authenticity in writing.
"so much of the writing out there is dishonest there's a crisis of trust nobody trusts the media you call yourself the honest broker what is the story of the honest broker I launched my substack newsle..."
Minimalism vs. Maximalism in Writing
In this segment, Ted Gioia explores the trend of minimalism in writing, comparing it to similar movements in music and design. He critiques the dominance of short, choppy sentences in American prose, tracing its roots back to Hemingway and Ezra Pound. Gioia expresses a longing for a return to a more maximalist style, citing authors like David Foster Wallace as examples of this richer, more elaborate approach.
"in music it seems like the minimalist style even in interior design has sort of taken off a minimalist aesthetic dominates everything right now yeah what's going on American PR still has not recovered..."
The Honest Broker: A Personal Journey
Ted Gioia shares the origin of his nickname 'The Honest Broker,' recounting a pivotal experience in China where he learned the value of trust in business. He parallels this lesson with his writing career, emphasizing the need for honesty and integrity in journalism. Gioia reflects on the current state of media trust and how he aims to be a reliable source for his readers.
"call yourself the honest broker what is the story of the Hest broker well I gave myself that nickname but there's a story behind it and I have to say up front it's not an especially sexy nickname I kn..."
Three Questions for Honest Writing
In this segment, Ted Gioia outlines three critical questions every writer should ask before publishing: Is this fair? Is this accurate? Will this be persuasive to all fair-minded observers? He discusses the temptations writers face to cater to audiences or agendas, stressing the importance of prioritizing the reader's trust and delivering honest content.
"writing on the side well this honest broker advice proved to be very useful and chant now I'm back home and I'm writing on music and I'm seeing how so much of the writing out out there is dishonest yo..."
Editing for Honesty and Objectivity
Ted Gioia delves into the editing process, discussing how writers can maintain honesty while ensuring their work is fair and objective. He reflects on the challenges of presenting oneself authentically in writing, particularly in music journalism, where the desire to appear 'cool' can compromise integrity. Gioia emphasizes the importance of admitting limitations and being true to oneself.
"have that honesty and there's three questions that you ask is this fair is this accurate will this be persuasive to all fair-minded observers why are those questions well absolutely see there's a risk..."
The Burden of Coolness in Music Writing
In this segment, Ted Gioia addresses the pressure music writers face to maintain a 'cool' persona. He critiques the tendency to adopt a facade instead of writing honestly, sharing personal anecdotes about overcoming this challenge. Gioia highlights the risks of living up to public expectations and the importance of authenticity in building a genuine connection with readers.
"yourself having those thoughts and when you do what is the initial reaction like of I just saw this honest thought that surprised me on the page and then in your editing process deciding whether to pu..."
Adapting Writing Styles to Context
Ted Gioia shares insights on how he adapts his writing style based on the subject matter, drawing from his experiences in writing about different musical genres. He discusses how the tone and structure of his prose change to reflect the essence of the music he writes about, illustrating the importance of context in effective writing.
"reader have you been deliberate about not trying to show off with fancy Pros or crazy references because most people who are connoisseurs experts to the level that you are they use big laqua purple pr..."
The Evolution of Writing on Substack
Gioia explains how his writing on Substack has transformed, becoming more direct and conversational. He highlights the unique relationship with readers that Substack fosters, allowing for a more personal and engaging writing experience that deviates from traditional publishing methods.
"like wner and all the metaphors have to do with the soil and the crops and the the way I structure the sentences becomes lazier more relaxed and open so every book I wrote I tried to change the style ..."
The Balance of Inspiration and Method
In this segment, Gioia discusses the delicate balance between inspiration and methodical writing. He shares anecdotes about how moments of inspiration can lead to profound creativity, while also emphasizing the importance of maintaining a structured approach to writing.
"criticism for a magazine or a newspaper but I found that my Pros started changing on its own without me even being aware of it it became more conversational now why did this happen when I got on subst..."
The Magic of Music and Writing
Ted Gioia draws parallels between music and writing, discussing how both art forms can lose their magic when overly structured. He reflects on the importance of spontaneity and the organic flow of creativity, emphasizing that true artistry often emerges from moments of inspiration rather than rigid adherence to form.
"that makes it very awkward to show off I mean if I wanted to show off and and quote Shakespeare or whatever this is Plato Aristotle Dante the substack is not the place to do it but there is one thing ..."
Direct Reader Relationships in Publishing
Gioia shares his experiences with publishing directly to readers through Substack, highlighting the benefits of bypassing traditional publishing intermediaries. He discusses how this approach allows for a more authentic connection with readers and the ability to share ideas without constraints.
"sure you're now writing a book on substack so tell me about I think youve published like 10 chapters out of 12 that's right so how has that experience been different almost done with the book how has ..."
The Transcendental Power of Music
In this segment, Gioia explores the historical significance of music as a transformative force, referencing myths like Orpheus and the cultural traditions that view music as a means to transcend reality. He emphasizes the need to recapture the magical essence of music in contemporary writing and art.
"and then I got on substat and I thought I'm just going to publish this book on substat now that's not easy to do because people generally don't look to email newsletters for books but I made sure each..."
The Moment of Inspiration
Ted Gioia shares a compelling story about jazz saxophonist John Handy and his experience playing with Charles Mingus. He emphasizes the importance of being present in the moment during creative endeavors, illustrating how trying to replicate past successes can stifle future creativity. This segment highlights the delicate balance between inspiration and the pressure to perform consistently.
"conscious mind comes in and I know the same thing happens in writing now writing is is a much more methodical thing but still that same situation arises and so when you get that inspiration like the s..."
Trusting the Creative Process
In this segment, Gioia discusses the unpredictable nature of creativity, likening it to jazz improvisation. He reflects on how sometimes writing takes on a life of its own, and the importance of allowing that spontaneity to flourish. This insight is crucial for writers seeking to break free from formulaic approaches and embrace a more organic creative process.
"striking if you talk to film directors they'll say there was something about the 17th take that was just perfect it was just perfect and we did 18 19 20 we'll never be able to recreate that and I feel..."
The Dangers of Formulaic Writing
Ted Gioia expresses his disdain for formulaic writing and storytelling, arguing that it leads to a stagnation of creativity in both literature and film. He critiques the entertainment industry for relying too heavily on predictable formulas, which ultimately diminishes the excitement and originality of new works. This segment serves as a rallying cry for writers to embrace risk-taking and innovation.
"that piece now has absolutely and this is a a valuable lesson the thing that helped me enormously with all the years of me playing jazz piano because in jazz there is a culture that prices improvisati..."
The Beatles and Cultural Evolution
Gioia uses The Beatles as a prime example of how artistic evolution can invigorate culture. He discusses how their willingness to experiment and grow with each album reshaped the music landscape. This segment underscores the necessity for artists to push boundaries and avoid complacency in their work, drawing parallels to the current state of creativity in various fields.
"and this is how I do it yeah that shows up all the time in your work what is it about formula that you just loathe and despise so much it's true and I often get into interviews and people say why don'..."
The Crisis of Creativity in Modern Media
In this segment, Gioia analyzes the current crisis in creativity within the media landscape, particularly in Hollywood. He points out how the reliance on formulas has led to a lack of innovation and excitement in films and music. This discussion highlights the need for a cultural shift towards embracing risk and originality to revitalize artistic expression.
"it's because the studios RI too much on formula So when you say that we need to move Beyond formula are you saying what we need to do is like the Beatles where every single album sort of gets better a..."
The Narrowing of Creative Voices
Ted Gioia discusses the narrowing range of acceptable voices and ideas in the publishing industry, criticizing how major publishers often prioritize commercial success over artistic integrity. He argues that this trend stifles individuality and creativity, making it essential for writers to seek alternative platforms that allow for genuine expression and risk-taking.
"years well this is the songs are staying on the radio for longer there's a shift to people listening to old songs instead of new songs and when the new songs come out they're very similar to the old o..."
The Future of Creative Freedom
In this concluding segment, Gioia expresses optimism for the future of creativity, suggesting that grassroots movements and independent platforms will foster a new counterculture. He emphasizes the importance of taking risks and breaking free from traditional constraints to create truly innovative work. This segment serves as an inspiring call to action for writers and creators.
"particularly the major Publishers there's such a narrow range of things they want and it all changes based on what's fashionable so uh Pirates of the Caribbean as yet they want pirate stories and and ..."
Breaking Free from Formulaic Writing
Ted Gioia discusses the narrowing range of acceptable writing in mainstream publishing, emphasizing the need for fresh and exciting voices to emerge from microcultures. He reflects on the importance of making enemies in the creative process and the necessity of risk-taking in art, drawing parallels to Martin Scorsese's critique of formulaic Hollywood films. This segment highlights the cultural opportunity to create something truly different and countercultural.
"camp you can do it uh as soon as you start working within the mainstream publishing industry particularly the major Publishers my experience there maybe other people have better experiences in me but ..."
The Power of Honest Journaling
Gioia shares a powerful journaling technique that encourages writers to document their daily experiences with brutal honesty. He explains how this practice can unlock hidden ideas and foster creativity by allowing writers to break free from societal expectations. The segment emphasizes the importance of self-permission in the writing process and how honesty can lead to greater artistic expression.
"something that's like a new counterculture I'm really I have every expectation that we are going to get something that's more like a new Counter Culture it's in the process of being formed right now t..."
Conformity vs. Authenticity in Writing
In this segment, Ted Gioia explores the evolutionary tendency for individuals to conform rather than express honesty. He discusses how societal pressures reward fitting in, leading to groupthink and formulaic writing. Gioia argues that true greatness in writing comes from rejecting these pressures and embracing authenticity, urging writers to speak from the heart despite the discomfort it may bring.
"could do it now let me let me explain why this is true I'm going to get a little scientific on you so be forgiving of this let's look at the theory of evolution okay okay and supposedly according to t..."
The Journey to Honest Expression
Gioia reflects on the challenges of speaking honestly, especially for younger writers. He emphasizes that as one gains life experience and confidence, it becomes easier to articulate personal beliefs. This segment highlights the importance of overcoming conformity and the gradual process of learning to express oneself authentically in writing.
"yourself that I mean you use the word give yourself permission I almost want to use a more active verb there if you need to push yourself it's more than permission you need to propel yourself into a p..."
Timeless Wisdom in Modern Writing
Ted Gioia discusses the significance of seeking timeless truths in literature and culture. He shares his experience of focusing on classic works before engaging with contemporary literature, arguing that understanding the past enriches one's perspective on modern narratives. This segment underscores the value of historical context in shaping a writer's voice and understanding of storytelling.
"going to say you were talking about Conformity and when I was reading your 50 quotes you quoted Romans 12:2 one of my favorites do not conformed to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the ..."
The Shift from Old to New in Creative Consumption
In this segment, Gioia explains his unconventional approach to consuming literature and music, advocating for reading classics in youth and contemporary works later in life. He reflects on how this strategy has provided him with a deeper understanding of modern culture and storytelling, allowing him to draw connections between ancient wisdom and contemporary narratives.
"up to that experience well I saw you say read old books when you're young and younger books when you're old what's going on with that absolutely that's what I did that for music and literature and and..."
The Discipline of Lifelong Learning
Ted Gioia shares his rigorous daily routine of reading and learning, which he has maintained for decades. He describes how this discipline has shaped his writing and communication skills, leading to unexpected vocational opportunities. This segment emphasizes the importance of a strong educational foundation and the long-term benefits of a commitment to personal growth and intellectual curiosity.
"look at something happening today in the culture today and I have this Foundation of why this connect back to what Shakespeare did or what Aristotle said or what the ancient Greeks did in their traged..."
Innovation vs. Tradition in Music
In this segment, Ted discusses the relationship between innovation and tradition in music, particularly focusing on the blues. He draws parallels between densely populated areas fostering innovation and the retention of musical traditions in isolated settings. Gioia illustrates how his analytical skills from business have informed his understanding of cultural evolution in music.
"you have written about jazz then music but not just reading the musical Cannon reading all over the place how then have books about say Finance like the Alchemy of Finance by George Soros how have tho..."
Applying Business Analytics to Culture
Ted Gioia explains how his background in business analytics has influenced his approach to writing about culture. He discusses how he applies techniques from product launches and market predictions to analyze trends in music and literature. This unique perspective allows him to draw insights from various fields, enriching his cultural commentary.
"had gone to New York or Chicago they would have forgotten the blues it's only because they were in isolated rural areas they could retain Traditions going back to Africa huh so this was the first time..."
The Importance of Domain Expertise for Writers
Gioia emphasizes the value of domain expertise for writers, arguing that deep knowledge in a specific area enhances writing quality. He shares examples of how expertise in law can empower sports writers and how his own background in business analytics has shaped his cultural writing. This segment encourages aspiring writers to cultivate knowledge beyond just writing skills.
"is what is the skill that you have that is highly distinctive from the other people in your space so one of the things that you have from your NBA background BCG is the ability to analyze an S1 so you..."
The Interactive Process of Reading and Writing
In this segment, Ted discusses the dynamic relationship between reading and writing. He describes his process of synthesizing ideas from books into his writing, highlighting the importance of continuous input for effective output. Gioia argues that a writer's input—what they read and learn—directly influences their writing quality and creativity.
"now I'm old enough now where I have a bunch of these things in my back pocket there's the the reading I've done and my self-education my work as a musician uh stuff I did in in Silicon Valley I draw u..."
Reading for Style vs. Content
Ted Gioia explores the distinction between reading for content and reading for style. He shares his appreciation for writers with beautiful prose, even if he disagrees with their ideas. This segment highlights the importance of understanding various writing styles and how they can influence a writer's own voice and expression.
"because people go to work and the boss measures them on their output the boss should measure their input too and the bosses don't ask that the boss wants to know what is you do today what was your out..."
Reawakening Romanticism in a Rational World
Gioia concludes with a reflection on the current cultural landscape, arguing for a reawakening of Romantic ideals in response to an overly rational and technological society. He emphasizes the need for a balance between rationalism and the emotional, artistic aspects of life, suggesting that this shift is essential for cultural growth.
"historian Shelby foot who he read PR all the time and this is exactly what he said I just have to read in Search of Lost Time over and over and over because of the way that his style infuses into my w..."
Romanticism's Impact on Society
In this segment, Gioia explores how the Romantic era shifted societal values, making poets and artists more celebrated than industrialists. He discusses the historical context of child labor laws and the abolition of slavery, attributing these advancements to the influence of Romantic thinkers who prioritized human creativity over profit.
"situation in 1800 was exactly the same H in that you had the Industrial Revolution people were building factories it's the Age of Reason people want to do everything rationally and logically or algori..."
Researching Romanticism
Gioia shares his ongoing research into Romanticism, detailing the works of poets like Blake, Byron, and Keats. He emphasizes the importance of understanding historical context and the philosophical shifts that led to a renewed focus on human creativity and artistic expression.
"hypothesis is something happened around the year 1800 that changed the world for the better and we need the same thing right now that's my view now how do I research that said well I don't know enough..."
The Role of Metaphysics in Writing
Ted discusses the tension between rationalism and metaphysical beliefs in writing. He argues that the most significant aspects of life, such as love and friendship, cannot be empirically proven, and he advocates for embracing the mystical elements of creativity that transcend rational thought.
"months trying to understand what happened with the rise of Romanticism as a powerful moment of change in our society where human beings were important again and creativity and Artistry did that and sa..."
Inspiration from Dreams
In this segment, Gioia delves into the concept of inspiration, particularly how dreams can serve as a source of creative ideas. He shares examples of famous songs that originated from dreams, highlighting the mystical and unpredictable nature of artistic inspiration.
"prizes rationalism and empiricism okay this was a big thing when I studied philosophy at Oxford empiricism was the reigning theory of philosophy in England the anglo-american philosophical Tradition a..."
The Connection Between Dreams and Creativity
Gioia continues to explore the relationship between dreams and artistic inspiration, discussing how many musicians have experienced creative breakthroughs during sleep. He emphasizes the importance of nurturing these experiences and not dismissing them as mere fantasies.
"Virgil and theot thanks the M the first thing you do is thank the Goddess that gave you the artistic inspiration now you were talking about Blake and I was studying Blake recently for this Romanticism..."
The Enchantment of Artistic Expression
In this concluding segment, Gioia reflects on the need to preserve the magical aspects of creativity in a rationalistic world. He argues for the importance of tapping into the wild and unpredictable elements of inspiration, drawing parallels between music and writing as interconnected forms of artistic expression.
"recollection it came in a dream Billy Joel's biggest hit just the way you are came to him in a dream Sting's biggest hit with the Police Every Breath You Take came to him in a dream Carl Perkins the r..."
The Magic of Dreams
Ted Gioia emphasizes the importance of dreams as a gateway to creativity and unpredictability. He argues that in a rationalistic world, dreams provide a rare opportunity to tap into the wild and magical aspects of our unconscious. Gioia suggests that writers should embrace this mystical experience to enhance their creative process.
"a sense of that Enchanted well I for example I have disagreements with wal wrong who talks about orality but you read this book he never talks about music h and a lot of these people they're talking a..."
Seeking Unpredictability in Writing
In this segment, Gioia discusses his approach to writing, highlighting the need to expose oneself to unpredictability. He shares his practice of remembering dreams and reading unconventional books to broaden his perspective. This quest for the unexpected is essential for nurturing creativity and avoiding predictability in writing.
"think if we lived in a less rationalistic Universe we might be able just to tap into that by wandering around in the garden or take going climbing the mountain to the mountain top or going on a retrea..."
The Influence of Visionary Artists
Ted Gioia reflects on the impact of visionary artists like The Beatles and Bob Dylan on his creative process. He admires their willingness to push boundaries and innovate, which inspires him to seek out transformative experiences in music and writing. This segment underscores the importance of engaging with diverse artistic expressions to enrich one's own creativity.
"do that it nothing frustrates me more than to wake up and I can feel I just had a dream and I cannot grab the details of it this frustrates me enormously and and people would say what what possible be..."
The Essence of Creative Life
Gioia articulates his belief that the essence of a creative life lies in the pursuit of knowledge and inspiration from various sources. He discusses the importance of reading widely and engaging with different perspectives to cultivate a rich creative practice. This segment serves as a reminder of the value of intellectual curiosity in writing.
"that I could have never come up on my own and to me that's the essence of the creative life can I throw out a few one word people genres and I just want to hear about when you think of their writing s..."
Cultural Reflections on Music
In this segment, Gioia shares his thoughts on various musical artists, including Taylor Swift and Eminem. He discusses their contributions to culture and how they resonate with audiences. Gioia's insights reveal the complexities of modern music and its impact on creativity and emotional experiences.
"sounds I I want to particularly in anything having do with spirituality I want to go back to the source or the source up there you know Taylor Swift Taylor Swift I have I have made my piece with Taylo..."
Balancing Writing and Life
Ted Gioia addresses the challenges writers face in balancing their craft with personal and financial responsibilities. He emphasizes the importance of acquiring marketable skills and being realistic about the demands of a writing career. This segment provides practical advice for aspiring writers navigating the complexities of their profession.
"problems and I want to ask about a few of them this comes from Fineman he basically says keep a list of 12 Fair problems in your head let them marinate let them stew many years later you might even co..."
Preserving Local Styles in a Globalized World
Gioia discusses the significance of local and regional styles in writing and music, lamenting their decline in a homogenized culture. He advocates for the preservation of unique cultural expressions and highlights the importance of regional perspectives in creative work. This segment calls for a renewed focus on diversity in artistic expression.
"were told about these things in very honest language how do I avoid becoming a narrow Specialist or a superficial generalist is there a third way if so how do I get there well uh the the philosopher u..."
Criticism with Kindness
In this segment, Gioia explores the challenges of being a critic in a culture that often rewards negativity. He shares his commitment to kindness and compassion in his critiques, believing that a shift towards a more compassionate culture is possible. This segment emphasizes the importance of maintaining integrity and kindness in the face of criticism.
"the diversity and even now if you look at Regional styles of the American accent the it's become more and more compressed well absolutely we're sitting in Austin right now and I had a visitor here her..."
Dopamine Culture and Distraction
Ted Gioia introduces the concept of 'dopamine culture,' describing how modern distractions impact our engagement with art and creativity. He contrasts this with past cultural debates about art versus entertainment, highlighting the need for deeper engagement with artistic expression. This segment serves as a critique of contemporary cultural consumption.
"important to me well I think a good example of that and I want to put the chart on the screen right here is your state of culture piece where you talk about maybe you can summarize it but the decline ..."
Dopamine Culture: A New Distraction
Ted Gioia introduces the concept of 'dopamine culture,' describing how modern distractions, particularly through social media, provide quick hits of pleasure that are ultimately unfulfilling. He compares this to past cultural debates about art versus entertainment, noting the emergence of distraction as a third category. Gioia warns that this trend is detrimental to society and advocates for a return to deeper, more meaningful engagement.
"used to have well I call it dopamine culture and it's a culture of distraction and this is fundamentally different than the past because 20 years ago if I'd had a debate with somebody about the cultur..."
Building a Career on Substance
In this segment, Gioia advises writers to resist the temptation to conform to the fast-paced, distraction-driven culture. He emphasizes the importance of authenticity and quality in writing, arguing that true engagement with readers comes from substantive content rather than fleeting trends. Gioia draws parallels to the food industry, suggesting that a return to organic and natural ingredients in writing will resonate more with audiences seeking depth.
"classic example I choose what my values are and then my work has to live up to those values otherwise I'm not the honest broker so as a writer how do I if I don't like dopamine culture but I kind of f..."
The Long-Term Path to Writing Success
Ted Gioia concludes with reflections on his writing journey, emphasizing the value of consistent effort and long-term thinking. He advocates for a 'slowness revolution' in writing and culture, encouraging writers to focus on building trust and integrity with their audience over time. Gioia's insights underscore the importance of patience and dedication in achieving lasting success in the writing profession.
"requires at the risk of being reductive what I'm going to try to do is summarize this conversation and you'll let me know what I either got wrong or missed okay but I think that if I were to say how h..."