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a16z Podcast | Your Worst Deeds Don’t Define You -- Life and Redemption in Prison
38 segments available
Men and women who have spent decades in prison are being released into an iPhone-enabled world that they hardly recognize. Shaka Senghor is one of those people, imprisoned at age 19 for second-degree murder and released almost two decades later in 2010. “It was like Fred Flintstone walking into an episode of the Jetsons,” he tells Ben Horowitz in a conversation about his book, Writing My Wrongs: Life, Death, and Redemption in an American Prison. Today, Senghor is an activist, advocate, and mentor for young men and women who find themselves on the same troubled path he took. This episode of the a16z Podcast covers Ben and Shaka's conversation about healing, humanity, and redemption -- especially if you believe that it's how you finish, not just how you start, that matters.
Segments Timeline
Introduction to Shaka Senghor
In this segment, Michael Copeland introduces Shaka Senghor, author of 'Writing My Wrongs,' who shares his experiences of nearly two decades in prison and his journey of redemption. The conversation sets the stage for exploring themes of healing and humanity.
"welcome to the a 16z podcast I'm Michael Copeland on this segment of the podcast Ben Horowitz sits down with Shaka Senghor author of writing my wrongs life death and redemption in an American prison S..."
Meeting Oprah: A Life-Changing Encounter
Ben Horowitz recounts his memorable encounter with Oprah Winfrey, where she shared insights on interviewing Shaka Senghor. This segment highlights the importance of understanding intentions and the transformative power of storytelling in revealing one's true self.
"Sango talks about his almost two decades behind bars the brutal rules of leadership on the inside and sang gars own life and redemption on the outside Ben Horowitz kicks things off how's everybody doi..."
Shaka's Intentions: Redemption and Change
During the interview, Shaka Senghor expresses his intention to convey that a prison sentence does not define a person's character. He emphasizes the possibility of change and redemption, a core theme that resonates throughout the podcast.
"met because it's a it's an interesting story and how we met how we became friends so it actually started with an event that some of you may have been at when I interviewed Oprah where any of you at th..."
Oprah's Emotional Connection with Shaka
Ben shares a poignant moment from Oprah's interview with Shaka, where they both connect emotionally over his childhood experiences. This segment illustrates the deep impact of trauma and the importance of understanding one's past in the journey toward healing.
"a physics pop quiz or something like that and so I was like Oprah police helped me like teach me how to interview real quick before I interview you it's like what's the secret how do you get people to..."
The Impact of Childhood Trauma
Shaka reflects on his abusive childhood and the pivotal moment he decided to run away from home. This segment delves into the complexities of his upbringing and how it shaped his path toward crime and incarceration.
"like a big guy scary-looking guy and so I asked him I said you know shaaka what are your intentions and he said well my intention is to let people know that just because you were in prison for 19 year..."
The Allure of the Drug Trade
In this segment, Shaka discusses how he was drawn into the drug trade at a young age, highlighting the dangers and horrors he faced. His experiences serve as a cautionary tale about the seductive nature of street life and its consequences.
"people to understand that it's very important to know and so she said okay I got it and so we went into the interview and she said so I'm asked him I said you know when did you get into crime like at ..."
Surviving Violence and Addiction
Shaka shares harrowing experiences of violence and addiction during his teenage years. This segment emphasizes the harsh realities of life on the streets and the struggle to overcome personal demons.
"he tensed up and said hey like I didn't feel good about that and she and she said I looked at him to make him know that I knew what his intentions were and you know to try and get the real answer I sa..."
The Turning Point: A Life-Altering Conflict
Shaka recounts a critical moment when he was shot multiple times, leading to a profound realization about his life choices. This segment marks a turning point in his narrative, setting the stage for his eventual incarceration.
"would do in life was ever gonna matter and she said you hit the street when you were 9 years old and you know and then like she said and like me and him were just like both crying together and I was I..."
Facing the Consequences of Violence
In this segment, Shaka discusses the aftermath of his violent actions, including his arrest and sentencing. He reflects on the bitterness and anger he felt upon entering prison, highlighting the emotional turmoil that accompanies such life-altering decisions.
"Oprah told me the story about this guy Shaq I like its incredible story and I just wanted to tell her the story but she goes on Facebook and like tries to connect to him and like then he like accepts ..."
The Weight of Trauma
Shaka Senghor reflects on the traumatic experiences of his youth, including being shot and the emotional aftermath of such violence. He discusses the lack of support and understanding around post-traumatic stress disorder, revealing how these experiences shaped his worldview and led him to carry a gun for protection, believing it was better to be the shooter than the victim.
"had to drop me off and leave me and go and for my family with what had occurred he got in the hospital doctor pulled the bullets out with exceptional one I still have a bullet in my foot they pretty m..."
The Moment of No Return
Senghor recounts the pivotal moment that led to his incarceration, detailing a drug transaction gone wrong that escalated into violence. He describes the conflict that resulted in him firing fatal shots, leading to his arrest and a lengthy prison sentence. This segment highlights the consequences of choices made in a moment of fear and desperation.
"found myself in the conflict that I was sue first and within 16 months I got into multiple conflicts and in each one I fired first and tragically in July 1991 got into a conflict it's nearly 2:00 in t..."
Survival in a Depraved Environment
In this segment, Senghor shares his realization of the brutal reality of prison life, comparing it to a jungle where survival is paramount. He reflects on the depravity he witnessed and his determination to not succumb to that level of violence, choosing instead to adopt a mindset of strength and resilience.
"when I entered prison I was just bitter angry broken didn't want to be responsible confused more than anything else and I can see it in that same energy yeah and it's you know it's interesting how as ..."
The Jungle of Prison Life
Senghor discusses the dual systems operating within prisons: the administrative system and the survival system among inmates. He explains how the prison environment fosters a hierarchy based on violence and survival instincts, and how he navigated this complex social structure to maintain his safety and status.
"environments imaginable and what I said to myself was dead no matter how much time I served I would never allow myself to reach that level of depravity but the flipside of that is that I realized that..."
Economics of Survival
This segment delves into the underground economy of prison life, where Senghor describes running a loan sharking business and the intricate financial systems that develop among inmates. He explains how these systems are tolerated by prison administration as a means of maintaining order and preventing chaos.
"of the rules but then there's the system of the jungle that is kind of more about who rises to the hierarchy right you know and how do you manage that how do you you know acquire finance how do you ta..."
Navigating Power Dynamics
Senghor reflects on the power dynamics between street reputation and prison life, explaining how respect is earned differently in each environment. He discusses the importance of protecting oneself and one's status in prison, where violence often dictates hierarchy and survival.
"came out of the shadow economy outside of prison yeah and that had a hierarchy and then like is that the that hierarchy translate into prison or the rules harder are they like how is that how does tha..."
Compassion in Conflict
In this powerful segment, Senghor shares how he learned to resolve conflicts non-violently in prison. He emphasizes the importance of compassion and understanding in a violent environment, illustrating how he chose to break the cycle of violence and extend dignity to others, ultimately leading to personal growth.
"read the book what I started to see was a lot of your reflection came as the guy says as you those are the prison system and then the prisoner system and you ended up because you were so determined at..."
Integrity in a Violent World
Senghor discusses the value of integrity and keeping one's word in the prison environment. He reflects on how his choices to resolve conflicts peacefully earned him respect and how these lessons translated into his life after prison, emphasizing the importance of maintaining one's principles even in the harshest conditions.
"because they're expecting you to you know that guy's got to go or whatever and you go in and you resolve it and let them go with their respect like we're people like what was that are like how did it ..."
The Awakening Through Literature
Senghor discusses the pivotal moment when he discovered Malcolm X's autobiography, which served as a catalyst for his personal awakening. He contrasts the messages of redemption and self-improvement from the book with the harsh realities of prison life, illustrating the internal struggle he faced in choosing a path of growth.
"important to me so when you resolve a conflict and you say look here's what I need you to do and I'm gonna make sure that I always have your back that extended even when you left prison definitely Wow..."
Exploring New Ideas Through Reading
Senghor shares his journey of expanding his reading horizons while in prison, from urban fiction to classic literature and political philosophy. He highlights how this exploration helped him understand the world differently and fueled his desire for personal growth and knowledge.
"actually written by another guy who locked in a cell across from me and so he would he would write these fascinating stories about neighborhood he grew up in in Detroit and they would be like you know..."
The Duality of Choices in Prison
In this segment, Senghor reflects on the duality of choices he faced in prison, torn between the violent culture around him and the redemptive messages from his readings. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing one's potential for good amidst the chaos of prison life.
"actually in one section of the library they had like all these black writers that I had never heard of like all the Harlem Renaissance and you know Langston Hughes and and and you know Claude McKay an..."
The Impact of Malcolm X
Senghor elaborates on how Malcolm X's autobiography became a guiding force in his life, encouraging him to pursue redemption and self-improvement. He discusses the misconceptions surrounding Malcolm's image and highlights the profound intelligence and insight found within the book.
"life you remember the cartoons like me you have like the the bad ain't that the bad little devil on one shoulder and like the little angel another soda so that Malcolm's book became like that to me ri..."
Curiosity as a Catalyst for Change
Senghor describes his insatiable curiosity about the world and how it drove him to seek knowledge and understanding. He reflects on the importance of continuous learning and self-examination, even in the face of adversity and turmoil.
"will be discussing books that he read you know everybody ready so that's that was the start of it right so I got off into reading political science and in philosophy which originally I thought philoso..."
The Transition to Freedom
In this segment, Senghor shares his experience of transitioning from prison to the outside world, likening it to 'Fred Flintstone walking into an episode of the Jetsons.' He discusses the shock of technological advancements and the challenges of adapting to a rapidly changing society.
"you know that led to me getting off to Eastern philosophy and theology and you know and I went through all these different iterations of personal growth but it started with just being inquisitive and ..."
Navigating a New World
Senghor recounts the challenges he faced in understanding modern technology after his release from prison. He shares humorous anecdotes about his initial struggles with basic computer functions and how his curiosity helped him navigate this new world.
"turmoil yeah that's really interesting when you came out of prison well first let me just ask like what was that like nineteen years like you're living in like literally the jungle and then I'll ascen..."
Embracing Technology and Connection
Senghor expresses his fascination with technology and its ability to connect people. He shares his eagerness to engage with social media and how it allowed him to reconnect with the world, highlighting the importance of communication in his journey of redemption.
"than I left I was mind-blowing that at you know the technological advancements extremely curious I was fortunate that you know I had a partner in Ebony who sitting in the front who would send me like ..."
The First Steps into the Outside World
In this final segment, Senghor discusses his first experiences after being released from prison, including setting up a Facebook page and seeking opportunities to engage with local artists. He reflects on the excitement and challenges of reintegrating into society after years of incarceration.
"so literally every time I would be working in the document and I got ready to save it I would freeze up because I had heard about like viruses and I'm like if I push the wrong it's gonna like get a co..."
Catching Up with Music
After his release, Senghor expresses his desire to reconnect with the music scene he missed while incarcerated. He discusses how he started writing music reviews for local newspapers, driven by his passion for music and the need to catch up on what he had missed. This segment illustrates the role of creativity and expression in his journey of reintegration into society.
"you know I was so ambitious though right so I told I told everything I was like you know I want to answer it that's like I saw just like the fanciest touch screen because that's the only commercial I ..."
The Literacy Gap in Prison
Senghor highlights the alarming literacy rates among incarcerated individuals and the challenges they face upon reentry into society. He discusses how many prisoners lack basic technological skills, which significantly hinders their ability to find employment and reintegrate. This segment underscores the urgent need for educational programs within the prison system to prepare inmates for life after incarceration.
"couldn't afford to pay me anymore so but technology is just it's mesmerizing to me and and but it's also frightening so it's frightened in a sense that you know I went to prison I had an advantage tha..."
The Cost of Incarceration
In this segment, Senghor reveals the financial burdens placed on former inmates, including the costs associated with their incarceration. He shares his personal experience of being sued for the costs of his imprisonment, illustrating the exploitative nature of the prison system. This discussion raises critical questions about the economic implications of incarceration and the need for reform.
"you going back to prison is extreme yeah yeah a lot of people don't know but in prison you don't have access to technology or even regular email they've got a prison system yes so and that that system..."
The Fallacy of the War on Drugs
Senghor critiques the long-standing narrative of the War on Drugs and its devastating impact on communities and individuals. He discusses the absurdity of punitive measures and the reality that most incarcerated individuals will eventually return to society. This segment calls for a reevaluation of the criminal justice system and emphasizes the need for a more humane approach to rehabilitation.
"itself and and I think that you know now it's become a bipartisan issue that while we put too many people in prison and and we got to do something about that but talk a little bit about because it's a..."
Lessons from Germany's Prison System
Senghor shares insights from his visit to Germany, where he observed a vastly different approach to incarceration. He describes how the German system focuses on rehabilitation and reintegration, emphasizing humanity and support rather than punishment. This segment highlights the potential for reform in the American prison system by learning from international practices that prioritize the well-being of individuals.
"the financial cost of that it's starting to be filled and so both parties are finally a grand for whatever their motives are to agree that we have to do something you know about it and and just to kin..."
Empathy in the Prison System
During his visit to Germany, Senghor recounts a poignant moment with a German prison warden who expressed sorrow over his years in solitary confinement. This interaction highlights the stark differences in attitudes towards incarceration and rehabilitation between the two countries.
"believe in throwing people away they don't believe that the more you mistreated person the better that person will act so from the very beginning from the very time a person enters their system they'r..."
The Recidivism Crisis
Senghor addresses the alarming recidivism rates in the U.S. prison system, where 70% of released individuals return to prison. He critiques the profit-driven motives of the prison industry that perpetuate this cycle, contrasting it with Germany's significantly lower recidivism rate.
"another part of the prison that really isn't a prison it's kind of like a transitional housing type situation but the thing that struck me most was I was talking to one of the wardens there and she as..."
Changing the Narrative
Senghor emphasizes the need for a philosophical and cultural shift in how society views and treats incarcerated individuals. He argues for transparency and humanization in the prison system, advocating for a more compassionate approach to rehabilitation.
"surpassed us in yeah and it's just one of the things you pointed out to me is that the US prison system the incentive is for you to go back to jail once you come out and why don't you talk about that ..."
The Role of Society in Rehabilitation
Senghor discusses the societal responsibilities towards formerly incarcerated individuals, stressing the importance of community support and understanding. He highlights the need for proximity to the issues faced by these individuals to foster empathy and change.
"to beat and you know the norm in this country that comparison I think Germany has maybe he's telling me about the Germany's turn I was like wow I wonder what their recidivism rate is 35 percent so lik..."
The Impact of Mental Health on Incarceration
Senghor points out the correlation between mental health issues and incarceration, arguing that society often neglects the needs of vulnerable populations. He calls for a reevaluation of how mental health is treated, particularly for those from marginalized communities.
"change the way prison works you know how much of it is just a philosophy change and a culture change among and how they run it versus like it's underfunded or like how did how do you think about that ..."
The Need for Systemic Change
Senghor advocates for systemic change in the prison system, emphasizing the importance of honesty and transparency. He critiques the superficial political narratives surrounding incarceration and calls for a deeper understanding of the complexities involved.
"but there's also also responsibility that we have because you know men and women are coming home every day and they're gonna be your neighbors maybe not so our neighbors I take a little it's like I'm ..."
Redemption and Second Chances
Senghor concludes by discussing the fundamental principles of redemption and second chances found in various spiritual philosophies. He argues that society must embrace these values to allow individuals to reintegrate successfully and contribute positively to their communities.
"unchecked and we're not paying attention and horrific things happen don't pay attention the things that I experienced and witnessed in solitary confinement it's part of what fuels my work today you kn..."