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I flew to the Bahamas to interview Sam Bankman-Fried, the CEO of FTX! He talks about FTX’s plan to infiltrate traditional finance, giving $100m this year to AI + pandemic risk, scaling slowly + hiring A-players, and much more. Episode website + Transcript: https://dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sbf Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3KxGOFI Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3B11Vgv Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp Unfortunately, audio quality abruptly drops from 17:50-19:15 TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Preview 01:03 How inefficient is the world? 01:56 Choosing a career 05:00 The difficulty of being a founder 07:06 Is effective altruism too narrowminded? 10:42 Political giving 13:40 FTX Future Fund 17:26 Adverse selection in philanthropy 18:51 Relationship between different causes 23:00 Doing difficult things 26:36 The importance of focus 29:14 How SBF identifies talent 31:54 Why scaling too fast kills companies 34:36 The future of crypto 36:31 Risk, efficiency, and human discretion in derivatives 41:45 Jane Street vs FTX 42:41 Conflict of interest between broker and exchange 43:44 Bahamas and Charter Cities 44:32 SBF’s RAM-skewed mind
Sam Bankman-Fried discusses the challenges of starting a company, emphasizing the numerous inefficiencies and frustrations that entrepreneurs face. He highlights that success requires perseverance through these obstacles and reflects on the rapid growth of companies often leading to internal chaos.
"When you start a company, there are enormous amounts of shit that looks like that. Things that are dumb or annoying or broken or unfair, or not how the world should work. But that’s how the worl..."
Sam Bankman-Fried discusses the challenges of starting a company, emphasizing the numerous inefficiencies and frustrations that founders face. He highlights that success requires perseverance through these obstacles and reflects on the internal chaos that can arise from rapid growth.
"When you start a company, there are enormous amounts of shit that looks like that. Things that are dumb or annoying or broken or unfair, or not how the world should work. But that’s how the worl..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried reflects on career advice he received from Will MacAskill about earning to give. He considers whether pursuing a safer career path might have been better than becoming a founder, discussing the balance between personal success and altruistic impact.
"Thanks for having me. Alright, first question. Does the consecutive success of FTX and Alameda suggest to you that the world has all kinds of low-hanging opportunities? Or was that a property of..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried reflects on career advice he received from Will MacAskill about earning to give. He considers whether pursuing safer career paths is the best advice for potential founders and discusses the balance between personal and altruistic motivations in career decisions.
"Thanks for having me. Alright, first question. Does the consecutive success of FTX and Alameda suggest to you that the world has all kinds of low-hanging opportunities? Or was that a property of..."
Bankman-Fried emphasizes the importance of personal factors in career decisions, noting that many individuals are influenced by their family and friends. He discusses how these personal considerations often weigh heavily on the choices people make, particularly in the context of altruism and effective altruism.
"I don't think it was literally the best possible advice because this was in 2012. Starting a crypto exchange then would have been…. I think it was definitely helpful advice. Relative to not havi..."
Bankman-Fried critiques the Effective Altruism movement for being too narrow-minded in its approach to impact. He argues that the lack of leadership in altruistic projects is a broader issue, not just confined to the movement, and emphasizes the need for more founders in this space.
"Right. But then there's a broader question: are people like you who could become founders advised to take lower variance, lower risk careers that in, expected value, are less valuable? Yeah, I thi..."
Sam discusses strategies for attracting more altruistically-minded individuals to leadership roles in Effective Altruism. He emphasizes the importance of engagement and normalizing the potential for failure in startups to foster a supportive community.
"I didn't realize that the personal considerations were as important in your case as the advice you got. Oh, I don’t think in my case. But, it is true with many people that I talked to. Speaking of..."
In this thought-provoking segment, Bankman-Fried addresses the implications of utilitarianism in philanthropy. He discusses the potential for wealthy individuals to become utilitarian philanthropists and the moral uncertainties that come with giving, emphasizing the need for robust impact in charitable actions.
"personal. When we talk with people about their careers, personal considerations and the advice of people close to them weigh very heavily on the decisions they end up making. I didn't realize that..."
Bankman-Fried critiques the effective altruism movement, suggesting it can be too narrow-minded in its approach to plotting courses of impact. He argues for a broader understanding of ethics and the importance of considering various paths to make a meaningful difference in the world.
"something about the movement that drives away people who took could take leadership roles? Oh, I think it's just the world in general. Even if you ignore altruistic projects and just look at profi..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried addresses the concept of moral uncertainty in his philanthropic efforts. He reflects on how this uncertainty influences his giving decisions and the importance of robust impact in evaluating charitable actions.
"quite frequently for them is the right person or team to take the lead on it. In general, starting something is brutal. It's brutal being a founder, and it requires a somewhat specific but exten..."
Bankman-Fried shares insights from his experience with political donations, particularly his $12 million contribution to Carrick Flynn's campaign. He discusses the lessons learned regarding the effectiveness of political giving and the limits of updating beliefs based on single events.
"okay with that. I don't think we have that right now, I think very few communities do. Now, there are many good objections to utilitarianism, as you know. You said yourself that we don't have a g..."
Reflecting on his political donations, Bankman-Fried shares insights from his experience with the Oregon Congressional Election. He discusses the uncertainties of political giving and the potential diminishing returns from large donations, while also considering the broader implications for pandemic preparedness.
"Most startups and especially very early-stage startups should not be trying to maximize the chances of having at least a little bit of success. But that means you have to be okay with the person..."
Bankman-Fried explains the rationale behind creating the Future Fund, highlighting its re-granting program. He discusses the value of empowering stakeholders and the importance of smaller grants, which can often yield significant impact per dollar compared to larger donations.
"what I mean by that is, I'm sure one way that you can calculate the expected value of an action is, “Here's what's going to happen. Here are the two outcomes, and here are the probabilities of the..."
Sam explores the decision-making process behind funding political campaigns versus directly funding initiatives. He highlights the scale of necessary funding for pandemic preparedness and the importance of international cooperation in addressing global health challenges.
"what I mean by that is, I'm sure one way that you can calculate the expected value of an action is, “Here's what's going to happen. Here are the two outcomes, and here are the probabilities of the..."
Bankman-Fried explains the rationale behind creating the Future Fund, emphasizing its re-granting program that allows experts to distribute funds. He discusses the value of diverse stakeholder input and the potential impact of smaller grants in effective altruism.
"Political giving In the May 2022 Oregon Congressional Election, you gave 12 million dollars to Carrick Flynn, whose campaign was ultimately unsuccessful. How have you updated your beliefs about t..."
Sam Bankman-Fried discusses the effectiveness of political donations and the potential diminishing returns of funding a political campaign. He explores the balance between giving to political causes versus funding initiatives directly, particularly in the context of pandemic prevention and the scale of necessary funding.
"But does it make you think there are diminishing or possibly negative marginal returns from one donor giving to a candidate? Because of the negative PR? At some point, I think that's probably true..."
SBF elaborates on the Future Fund's re-granting program, emphasizing the importance of empowering local experts to identify impactful projects. He argues that this approach allows for a broader reach and reduces bias in funding decisions, ultimately leading to more effective philanthropy.
"One thing that I've been really happy about is the re-granting program. We have a number of people who are experts in various areas to who we've basically donated pots that they can re-grant. Wh..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried emphasizes the importance of international cooperation for effective pandemic prevention. He highlights the need for global vaccine distribution and surveillance systems to ensure equitable responses to health crises, stressing that government involvement is crucial.
"things like international cooperation important for it? When you look at pandemic prevention, we're talking tens of billions of dollars of scale necessary to start putting this infrastructure in ..."
Sam Bankman-Fried explains the rationale behind creating the Future Fund, a new initiative within the Effective Altruism movement. He discusses the value of a re-granting program that allows experts to distribute funds, enhancing stakeholder engagement and enabling impactful smaller grants.
"Let's talk about Future Fund. As you know, there are already many existing Effective Altruist organizations that do donations. What is the reason you thought there was more value in creating a n..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried addresses the concern of adverse selection in philanthropic funding. He explains how the Future Fund maintains oversight while allowing for a diverse range of smaller grants, ensuring that they evaluate both large and small proposals effectively.
"other thing is that it helps with a large number of smaller grants. When you think about what an organization giving away $100 million in a year is thinking about, “if we divided that up into $2..."
Bankman-Fried elaborates on the significance of smaller grants in philanthropy, arguing that they can lead to substantial changes for emerging organizations. He outlines the challenges of evaluating numerous small proposals and how the Future Fund's re-granting program addresses this issue.
"Distributing it and letting them act semi-autonomously can help with that. The other thing is that it helps with a large number of smaller grants. When you think about what an organization givin..."
Sam discusses the Future Fund's commitment to making the grant application process more accessible. He highlights the importance of reducing barriers for applicants to encourage innovative ideas and ensure that deserving projects receive funding.
"re-grantor program gives us a way to do that. Instead, we have 10, 50, or 100 re-grantors, who are going out and finding a lot of those opportunities close to them, they can then identify those ..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried discusses the importance of a smooth grant application process. He explains how reducing barriers for applicants can increase participation and diversity in funding, while also addressing concerns about adverse selection in philanthropic deal flow.
"It also biases it less towards people who we happen to know, which is good. We don't want to just like overfund everyone we know and underfund everyone that we don’t. That's one initiative that I..."
Bankman-Fried shares insights on how the Future Fund evaluates philanthropic opportunities to avoid adverse selection. He emphasizes the importance of statistical analysis and oversight in assessing the effectiveness of funded projects.
"on making the (application) process smooth and clean. There are pros and cons to this. But it drops the activation energy necessary for someone to decide to apply for a grant and fill out all of..."
In this segment, SBF reflects on the multiplicative nature of effective altruism causes. He discusses the complexities of how different causes interact, particularly in relation to AI safety and capabilities, and the implications for funding strategies.
"We do have oversight of them. But, we also do a deep dive into both all of the large ones, but also into samplings of all the small ones. We do deep dives into randomly sampled subsets of them—w..."
Sam Bankman-Fried tackles the challenge of adverse selection in philanthropy, explaining how the Future Fund maintains oversight while allowing for a diverse range of proposals. He shares insights on their vetting process and the importance of statistical analysis to ensure effective funding.
"Adverse selection in philanthropy If you make it easy for people to fill out your application and generally fund things that other organizations wouldn't, how do you deal with the possibility of ..."
Bankman-Fried reflects on the multiplicative nature of Effective Altruism causes, particularly in relation to AI and economic growth. He discusses the complexities of funding strategies and the need to identify impactful areas for investment in a rapidly evolving landscape.
"But that's a way to be able to have more trusted analyses for more scaled-up numbers of grants. Correlation between different causes A long time ago, you wrote a blog post about how EA causes are mu..."
Sam Bankman-Fried explores the concept of correlation in philanthropic efforts, arguing that the expected value of interventions is paramount. He emphasizes that the individual needs of beneficiaries should guide funding decisions, regardless of the correlation between different causes.
"I do think it's more complicated now. It's not cleanly things just multiplying with each other. There are lots of cases where you see multiplicative behavior, but there are cases where you don't..."
In this segment, SBF candidly discusses the potential risks facing the Future Fund, including the possibility of becoming complacent and failing to innovate. He stresses the importance of maintaining a focus on impactful and novel initiatives.
"What’s the most likely reason that Future Fund fails to live up to your expectations? We get a little lame. We give to a lot of decent things. But all the cooler or more innovative things that we ..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried explores the concept of correlation in philanthropic efforts. He argues that the expected value of interventions should guide funding decisions, regardless of whether causes are correlated, emphasizing the importance of helping individuals in need.
"If you think of your philanthropy from a portfolio perspective, is correlation good or bad? Expected value is expected value, right? Let's pretend that there is one person in Bangladesh and anothe..."
Sam Bankman-Fried candidly discusses the risks associated with the Future Fund, including the possibility of becoming complacent and failing to innovate. He stresses the importance of maintaining a focus on impactful and novel initiatives to fulfill their mission.
"What’s the most likely reason that Future Fund fails to live up to your expectations? We get a little lame. We give to a lot of decent things. But all the cooler or more innovative things that we ..."
Sam shares insights on the traits he looks for in leaders when evaluating proposals. He emphasizes the importance of resilience and passion, particularly in navigating the challenges of starting and running a company.
"When you look at a proposal and think this project could be promising, but this is not the right person to lead it, what is the trait that's most often missing? Super interesting. I am going to ig..."
Bankman-Fried contemplates the strategic nature of philanthropic giving, weighing the benefits of concentrated versus diffuse funding. He shares insights on how the Future Fund plans to navigate opportunities for impactful contributions while maintaining flexibility.
"When you look at a proposal and think this project could be promising, but this is not the right person to lead it, what is the trait that's most often missing? Super interesting. I am going to ig..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried discusses the necessity of tackling 'grunt work' as a founder. He highlights that successful entrepreneurs must be willing to engage in tedious tasks to ensure their company's operations run smoothly.
"cost you tens of millions of dollars a year to get set up. You have to get a physical colo(cation) in Secaucus, New Jersey, have market data agreements with these companies, think about the sip an..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried identifies key traits that make effective founders, emphasizing the importance of resilience and a willingness to tackle challenging tasks. He shares personal experiences that highlight the necessity of grit and dedication in building successful organizations.
"that is a good trade to buy one share of Apple stock on NASDAQ, there's a button to do that. If you as a random citizen want to buy one share of Apple stock directly on an exchange, it'll cost you..."
SBF draws a parallel between pitcher fatigue in baseball and talent allocation in companies. He explains how understanding performance dynamics can inform better management practices and optimize team productivity.
"If you're going to be like, “I'm the CEO, I don't do that stuff,” then no one's going to do that at your company. It's not going to get done. You won't have a bank account and you won't be able ..."
Bankman-Fried addresses the balance between hiring experienced individuals and the need for mentorship in a growing company. He argues that the way candidates think and adapt is more crucial than their prior experience. This segment explores the challenges of scaling a company while ensuring that new hires receive the guidance they need to succeed.
"you should use the latter. That's going to get the better pitching on average, and just as many innings out of them—and baseball has since then moved very far in that direction. The average numb..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried draws a parallel between pitcher fatigue in baseball and the allocation of talent in his companies. He explains how understanding the limits of performance can inform better work distribution among employees. By emphasizing the importance of context and concentrated work, he illustrates how effective management can lead to higher productivity and better outcomes.
"for a founder and for an early team at a company (but not important for everything in life) is willing to do a ton of grunt work if it’s important for the company right then. Viewing it not as “lo..."
Bankman-Fried shares insights on hiring practices at FTX, arguing that experience is less important than a candidate's ability to think critically and adapt. He discusses the challenges of mentorship and how the right mindset can predict a new hire's success. This segment underscores the value of hiring individuals who are eager to learn and can thrive in a dynamic environment.
"you should use the latter. That's going to get the better pitching on average, and just as many innings out of them—and baseball has since then moved very far in that direction. The average numb..."
Reflecting on his proposals to existing exchanges, Bankman-Fried discusses why they failed to implement his suggestions for improvement. He highlights issues of internal responsibility and the challenges faced by large organizations in adapting to change. This segment underscores the importance of having the right talent and structure to capitalize on opportunities in the financial market.
"How do you assess that short of hiring them for a month and then seeing how they did? It's tough, I don't think we're perfect at it. But things that we look at are, “Do they understand quickly wha..."
Bankman-Fried explores the dual perspectives on the impact of cryptocurrency on traditional finance. He discusses the potential for crypto innovations to influence traditional financial systems while acknowledging the uncertainty of future developments. This segment provides insight into the evolving relationship between crypto and traditional finance, emphasizing the importance of adaptability.
"billions of dollars of value on the table. Why didn't they just fix what you told them to fix? My sense is that it’s part of a larger phenomenon. One piece of this is that they didn't have a lot o..."
Reflecting on his experiences before launching FTX, Bankman-Fried explains how he provided existing exchanges with suggestions for improvement. He discusses the barriers to implementing these changes and the internal challenges that often hinder innovation in large organizations. This segment highlights the complexities of market structures and the importance of effective communication in driving progress.
"How do you assess that short of hiring them for a month and then seeing how they did? It's tough, I don't think we're perfect at it. But things that we look at are, “Do they understand quickly wha..."
Bankman-Fried addresses the pitfalls of rapid company growth, explaining how it can lead to diffusion of responsibility and inefficiency. He shares insights on how large organizations can struggle to implement changes due to internal chaos. This segment serves as a cautionary tale about the challenges of scaling and the importance of maintaining clear roles and responsibilities.
"billions of dollars of value on the table. Why didn't they just fix what you told them to fix? My sense is that it’s part of a larger phenomenon. One piece of this is that they didn't have a lot o..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried outlines his proposal for algorithmic risk management in futures trading, contrasting it with traditional methods that rely on human discretion. He discusses the potential benefits and risks of automation in managing financial transactions, emphasizing the need for clarity and oversight in the trading system. This segment highlights the ongoing evolution of risk management practices in the financial industry.
"There're two ways of thinking about the impact of crypto on financial innovation. One is the crypto maximalist view that crypto subsumes tradfi. The other is that you're basically stress-testing..."
Bankman-Fried examines the implications of cross-margining and capital efficiency in derivatives trading. He raises questions about the long-term competitive landscape of exchanges and the potential for a single exchange to dominate the market. This segment delves into the complexities of risk management and the balance between efficiency and competition in the evolving financial ecosystem.
"Are you replacing that risk with another risk? If there's one exchange that has the most liquidity om futures and there’s one exchange where you're posting all your collateral (across all your p..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried explores the relationship between cryptocurrency and traditional finance. He discusses the potential for crypto innovations to influence traditional financial systems and the importance of blockchain technology in improving market structures. This segment provides a nuanced view of the future of finance and the role of crypto in shaping it.
"There're two ways of thinking about the impact of crypto on financial innovation. One is the crypto maximalist view that crypto subsumes tradfi. The other is that you're basically stress-testing..."
Bankman-Fried contrasts the cultures of Jane Street and FTX, noting FTX's adaptability and customer-facing approach compared to Jane Street's long-term focus. He explains how FTX's dynamic environment fosters innovation while also addressing the challenges of rapid adaptation in a competitive market.
"I don't think we're going to have a single exchange winning. Among other things, there are going to be different decisions made by different exchanges—which will be better or worse for particula..."
Bankman-Fried discusses his proposal to the CFTC regarding algorithmic risk management in futures trading. He addresses concerns about the lack of human discretion in automated systems and the potential risks involved. This segment highlights the balance between automation and human oversight in financial markets, emphasizing the need for clear rules and transparency to mitigate systemic risks.
"Let's talk about your proposal to the CFTC to replace Futures Commission Merchants with algorithmic real-time risk management. There's a worry that without human discretion, you have algorithms ..."
In this concluding segment, Bankman-Fried examines the long-term implications of centralized exchanges in derivatives trading. He discusses the trade-offs between capital efficiency and the risks associated with cross-margining. This segment raises important questions about competition in the derivatives market and the potential dominance of single exchanges in the future.
"Are you replacing that risk with another risk? If there's one exchange that has the most liquidity om futures and there’s one exchange where you're posting all your collateral (across all your p..."
This segment explores the potential conflicts of interest that arise when combining brokerage and exchange functions in crypto. Bankman-Fried argues that harmonizing these roles can enhance customer experience, as opposed to the pitfalls of having separate entities with differing incentives.
"should work. People should be allowed to choose the option that makes the most sense for them. What are the biggest differences in culture between Jane Street and FTX? FTX has much more of a culture..."
Bankman-Fried shares his evolving views on charter cities after living in the Bahamas. He reflects on the feasibility of building impactful infrastructure and the support received from the local government, contrasting it with the challenges of starting from scratch on a new plot of land.
"How has living in the Bahamas impacted your opinion about the possibility of successful charter cities? It's a good question. It's the first time and it’s updated positively. We've built out a l..."
Bankman-Fried contrasts the cultures of Jane Street and FTX, noting FTX's adaptability and customer-facing approach compared to Jane Street's long-term focus. He discusses how FTX's culture encourages innovation and responsiveness to market changes, which is crucial for its growth.
"I don't think we're going to have a single exchange winning. Among other things, there are going to be different decisions made by different exchanges—which will be better or worse for particula..."
Sam Bankman-Fried addresses the potential conflict of interest between brokers and exchanges in the crypto space. He argues that while their incentives may differ, harmonizing these roles can enhance customer experience and operational efficiency.
"should work. People should be allowed to choose the option that makes the most sense for them. What are the biggest differences in culture between Jane Street and FTX? FTX has much more of a culture..."
In this insightful segment, Bankman-Fried discusses how his RAM-skewed mindset influences FTX's culture and growth. He emphasizes the importance of adaptability and the need for a team that can maintain focus on long-term goals amidst the fast-paced nature of the crypto industry.
"taking a giant, empty plot of land, and creating a city in it. That's way harder. How has having a RAM-skewed mind influence the culture of FTX and its growth? On the upside, we've been pretty good ..."
Reflecting on his experience in the Bahamas, Bankman-Fried shares his evolving views on the feasibility of charter cities. He acknowledges the challenges involved but expresses optimism about the potential for impactful infrastructure development.
"How has living in the Bahamas impacted your opinion about the possibility of successful charter cities? It's a good question. It's the first time and it’s updated positively. We've built out a l..."
In this segment, Bankman-Fried discusses how having a RAM-skewed mindset influences FTX's culture and adaptability. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on immediate challenges while also maintaining awareness of long-term goals and priorities.
"How has having a RAM-skewed mind influence the culture of FTX and its growth? On the upside, we've been pretty good at adapting and understanding what the important things are at any time. Trainin..."