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Lee Smolin: Quantum Gravity and Einstein's Unfinished Revolution | Lex Fridman Podcast #79

Lee Smolin: Quantum Gravity and Einstein's Unfinished Revolution | Lex Fridman Podcast #79

37 segments available

Lee Smolin is a theoretical physicist, co-inventor of loop quantum gravity, and a contributor of many interesting ideas to cosmology, quantum field theory, the foundations of quantum mechanics, theoretical biology, and the philosophy of science. He is the author of several books including one that critiques the state of physics and string theory called The Trouble with Physics, and his latest book, Einstein's Unfinished Revolution: The Search for What Lies Beyond the Quantum. This episode is presented by Cash App. Download it & use code "LexPodcast": Cash App (App Store): https://apple.co/2sPrUHe Cash App (Google Play): https://bit.ly/2MlvP5w PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 EPISODE LINKS: Books mentioned: - Einstein's Unfinished Revolution by Lee Smolin: https://amzn.to/2TsF5c3 - The Trouble With Physics by Lee Smolin: https://amzn.to/2v1FMzy - Against Method by Paul Feyerabend: https://amzn.to/2VOPXCD OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 3:03 - What is real? 5:03 - Scientific method and scientific progress 24:57 - Eric Weinstein and radical ideas in science 29:32 - Quantum mechanics and general relativity 47:24 - Sean Carroll and many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics 55:33 - Principles in science 57:24 - String theory CONNECT: - Subscribe to this YouTube channel - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LexFridmanPage - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

Segments Timeline

1
0:00 - 1:01
1:01 duration165 words

Introducing Lee Smolin

In this segment, Lex Fridman introduces Lee Smolin, a prominent theoretical physicist known for his work in loop quantum gravity and contributions to cosmology and the philosophy of science. Smolin's books, including 'The Trouble with Physics' and 'Einstein's Unfinished Revolution,' are highlighted, setting the stage for a deep discussion on the nature of reality and scientific inquiry.

"the following is a conversation with Lee Smolin he's a theoretical physicist co-inventor of loop quantum gravity and a contributor of many interesting ideas to cosmology quantum field theory the found..."

2
1:01 - 2:59
1:58 duration339 words

The Nature of Reality

Lee Smolin and Lex Fridman delve into the philosophical question of what is real. Smolin discusses the distinction between human perception and an independent reality, emphasizing the importance of understanding the world beyond our cognitive constructs. This segment explores the interplay between science and our perception of reality.

"might be asking why talk to physicist if you're interested in AI to me creating artificial intelligence systems requires more than Python and deep learning it requires that we return to exploring the ..."

3
2:59 - 5:01
2:01 duration295 words

Constructing Our Experience

In this thought-provoking segment, Smolin explains how our brains actively construct our experiences of the world. He argues that while our perceptions are processed and subjective, there exists a 'real world' beyond our interpretations. The conversation touches on the tools of physics and intuition in grasping this reality.

"my conversation with Lee Smolin what is real let's start with an easy question put another way how do we know what is real and what is merely a creation of our human perception and imagination we don'..."

4
5:01 - 8:02
3:00 duration471 words

The Scientific Method Debate

Smolin challenges the conventional notion of a singular scientific method, referencing philosopher Paul Feyerabend's views. He argues that science is a community-driven process that evolves through ethical practices and rigorous questioning, rather than adhering to a strict methodology. This segment invites listeners to reconsider how scientific progress is achieved.

"about it can we truly how do we get a sense of that real world is it through the tools of physics from theory to the experiments or can we actually grasp it in in some intuitive way that's more connec..."

5
8:02 - 11:03
3:01 duration441 words

Training and Ethics in Science

In this segment, Smolin discusses the importance of training in science, emphasizing that becoming a scientist requires rigorous education and ethical standards. He explains how scientists must defend their ideas against scrutiny and the role of community in validating scientific claims, highlighting the collaborative nature of scientific inquiry.

"world no one to counts first of all I don't believe his scientific method ha I was very influenced when I was in graduate school by the writings of Paul fire Robin who was enough an important philosop..."

6
11:03 - 14:14
3:10 duration478 words

Historical Progress in Science

Smolin reflects on the historical progress of science, particularly during the early 20th century. He discusses how significant discoveries, such as relativity and quantum mechanics, led to technological advancements that improved quality of life. This segment contrasts past scientific revolutions with the current state of physics, questioning the lack of similar breakthroughs today.

"you're still going to be questioned and you still may propose or publish mistakes but the community is gonna have to waste less time fixing your mistakes yes but if you can maybe linger on it a little..."

7
14:14 - 16:42
2:27 duration301 words

Experimental Validation in Science

The conversation culminates in a discussion about the role of experimental validation in science. Smolin asserts that experimental results are crucial for determining the accuracy of scientific theories. This segment emphasizes the necessity of empirical evidence in the scientific process and the ongoing quest for truth in understanding the universe.

"quality of life that's the progress I'm kind of referring to let me can I say that more precisely yes I think it's a it's important to get the time places right yes there was a scientific revolution t..."

8
16:24 - 18:05
1:41 duration224 words

Realism vs. Anti-Realism in Physics

Smolin introduces the concepts of realism and anti-realism in the context of physics. He explains realism as the belief in an objective reality independent of human perception, while discussing the implications of these views on our understanding of consciousness and the nature of reality.

"the early 20th century and the revolutions in science that happened there what was the method by which the scientific community kept each other in check about when you get something right when you get..."

9
18:05 - 19:49
1:44 duration246 words

The Role of Consciousness in Reality

This segment delves into the relationship between human consciousness and the physical universe. Smolin explores whether our perceptions shape reality and how a naturalistic view can accommodate the existence of consciousness, raising profound questions about the nature of existence.

"describe it some people would say that I'm not interested in determinism but I I could live with the fundamental world which which had some chance in it so deep he said you could live with it but do y..."

10
19:49 - 21:59
2:09 duration320 words

The Spectrum of Anti-Realist Views

Smolin articulates various anti-realist perspectives, referencing historical figures in quantum physics who challenged the notion of an objective reality. He discusses how these views reflect a more complex understanding of science as a tool for describing interactions rather than an absolute depiction of nature.

"place to understand the existence of and the nature of perceptions and consciousness in mind and that's question two question two I do think a lot about and my answer which is nine answers I hope so b..."

11
21:59 - 23:47
1:48 duration242 words

The Quest for Understanding Reality

In this thought-provoking segment, Smolin contemplates the limits of human cognition in understanding reality. He discusses the potential for future discoveries and the universality of mathematical and computational languages in explaining the universe, while acknowledging the challenges that lie ahead.

"with what nature would be like in our absence which we have nothing to say about do you find any aspect of that because you kind of said that we human beings tell stories defined aspects of that kind ..."

12
23:47 - 25:32
1:45 duration249 words

Innovation and the Nature of Genius

Smolin reflects on the nature of innovation and the psychological traits that contribute to groundbreaking discoveries. He shares insights on the importance of being in the right place at the right time, as well as the role of stubbornness and confidence in pushing the boundaries of conventional thinking.

"in the future element I think there is a universality here I don't agree with David Deutsch about everything but I admire the way he put things in his last book and he talked about the role of explana..."

13
25:32 - 29:00
3:27 duration493 words

Einstein's Unfinished Revolution

Smolin introduces his book, 'Einstein's Unfinished Revolution,' discussing the dual revolutions of relativity and quantum theory. He emphasizes Einstein's belief that quantum mechanics is incomplete and outlines his vision for a more comprehensive understanding of the universe that resolves existing paradoxes.

"for centuries so this is Erik Y Stein yeah what do the wheels represent are you basically saying that there's stuff right in front of our eyes that once we it just clicks we put the wheels in the lugg..."

14
29:00 - 30:10
1:10 duration144 words

Einstein's Unfinished Revolution

Smolin introduces the concept of Einstein's unfinished revolution, which encompasses the dual revolutions of relativity and quantum theory. He emphasizes the need for a new theory that reconciles the paradoxes of quantum mechanics and the principles of general relativity, highlighting Einstein's critical role in the development of quantum mechanics.

"gotten further I don't know whether certainly hi I'm sitting here at this moment with very much my own approach to telling everything and I'm calm I'm happy about that but on the other hand I know peo..."

15
30:10 - 31:06
0:55 duration142 words

The Measurement Problem

Delving into the measurement problem in quantum mechanics, Smolin discusses the contradictions inherent in the theory's evolution under observation versus non-observation. He articulates the need for a deeper understanding of the relationship between general relativity and quantum theory to complete Einstein's vision.

"paradox of the duality of particle wave for photons and he was I mean people I think don't always associate I style with quantum mechanics because I think his connection with it founding as a one of t..."

16
31:06 - 32:29
1:23 duration199 words

Connecting General Relativity and Quantum Theory

Smolin explains the necessity of connecting general relativity, which describes large-scale phenomena, with quantum theory, which governs the microscopic world. He argues that the current separation of these theories is a sign of the unfinished revolution in physics, calling for a unified framework that encompasses both realms.

"demands so what aspect of quantum mechanics bothers you and Einstein the most is it some aspect of the wavefunction collapse discussions the measurement problem is it the the the measurement problem I..."

17
32:29 - 33:08
0:39 duration99 words

The Nature of Space-Time

In this segment, Smolin discusses his perspective on space-time as an intellectual construct rather than a fundamental aspect of reality. He argues that while space-time serves as a useful approximation, the true nature of the universe is rooted in events and their causal relationships.

"figure out how to connect them so it can describe everything right and we either do that if we believe quantum mechanics as understood now is correct by bringing general relativity or some extension o..."

18
33:08 - 34:07
0:58 duration148 words

Emergence of Space and Time

Smolin elaborates on the idea that space and time are emergent properties rather than fundamental elements of the universe. He posits that causality is the core aspect of time, with events creating a narrative of the universe's history, challenging traditional notions of a fixed space-time framework.

"space-time in gravity so where do we begin so first let me ask perhaps you can give me a chance if I could ask you some just really basic questions well there at all the basic questions and the hardes..."

19
34:07 - 35:14
1:06 duration155 words

Understanding Causality

Exploring the concept of causality, Smolin emphasizes its significance in understanding the flow of time and the nature of events. He argues that causality is fundamental to physics, shaping our understanding of how events interact and influence one another in the universe.

"fundamental so okay let's we're gonna allow me to linger on that so the universe has events events cause other events there's this idea of causality okay so that that's happy let's in my in your view ..."

20
35:14 - 36:43
1:29 duration213 words

The Flow of Time

In this thought-provoking discussion, Smolin addresses the flow of time, asserting that the past is a narrative of events that have occurred, while the future is not predetermined. He challenges listeners to reconsider their understanding of time and its implications for the universe.

"the combination of them we use in general relativity that we call space-time also it is not but what is time then I think that time the activity of time is the continual creation of events from existi..."

21
36:43 - 38:05
1:21 duration190 words

Collaborative Efforts in Physics

Smolin acknowledges the contributions of his collaborators in his quest to finish Einstein's unfinished revolution. He highlights the importance of collaboration in advancing theories of causality and the fundamental nature of events in physics.

"era of time in our universe in your view and maybe it was an event right Oh an event is where something changes or where to I it's hard to say because it's a primitive concept in the event is a moment..."

22
38:05 - 39:30
1:25 duration203 words

Emergent Properties in Physics

Discussing emergent properties, Smolin explains how complex systems give rise to characteristics that cannot be directly derived from fundamental elements. He emphasizes that space is one such emergent property, arising from the interactions of events in a sufficiently complex universe.

"causality Carlos set and in the period before that Roberto mangabeira Unger who is a philosopher and a professor of law and that's in your efforts together with your collaborators to finish the unfini..."

23
39:30 - 41:02
1:31 duration217 words

Locality and Its Implications

Smolin explores the concept of locality in physics, contrasting it with the principles of quantum mechanics. He discusses how locality is defined in quantum field theory and the implications of experimental findings that challenge traditional notions of locality.

"which requires some property to describe it which is not directly explicable or drivable is the word I want from the properties of the fundamental things and space is one of those things in a sufficie..."

24
41:02 - 44:18
3:16 duration478 words

Challenging Locality in Quantum Mechanics

In this segment, Smolin addresses the experimental challenges to the classical definition of locality, particularly in the context of quantum entanglement. He discusses the implications of these findings for our understanding of reality and the ongoing quest to unify quantum mechanics with general relativity.

"does and you comfort me and a sort of as a therapist like how do i I'm not a good therapist okay there are several different definitions of locality when you come to talk about locality in physics in ..."

25
44:18 - 45:29
1:10 duration163 words

Finishing the Unfinished Revolution

Smolin concludes with reflections on the ongoing efforts to complete Einstein's unfinished revolution. He emphasizes the need for the physics community to focus on the fundamental aspects of causality and the potential for breakthroughs that could reshape our understanding of the universe.

"matter so like the distance between them well it's been tested of course if you want to have hope for quantum mechanics P in completely wrong and corrected by something that changes this it's been tes..."

26
46:13 - 49:09
2:56 duration456 words

Debating Many-Worlds Interpretation

In a lively exchange, Smolin shares his views on the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, discussing its philosophical implications and the challenges it presents. He contrasts his perspective with that of Sean Carroll, emphasizing the need for dialogue and understanding among physicists with differing views.

"student in which we've got more than a dozen attempts and I never thought I don't think anybody anticipated would work out this way which work partly and then at some point they have an issue that nob..."

27
49:09 - 51:48
2:38 duration381 words

Critique of Many-Worlds and Probability

Smolin critiques the many-worlds interpretation, particularly its handling of probability and measurement. He discusses the historical context of Everett's work and the ongoing debates among physicists regarding the interpretation's validity and implications for understanding quantum mechanics.

"there's something that Sean said to me in June of 2016 that changed my whole approach to a problem but I have to tell him first yes and that that's they'll be great to tell him on his podcast so I can..."

28
51:48 - 54:03
2:15 duration315 words

Decoherence and Quantum Mechanics

Lee Smolin delves into the concept of decoherence and its relevance to the many-worlds interpretation. He highlights the contributions of various philosophers and physicists in refining the understanding of quantum mechanics and the challenges that remain in establishing a coherent framework.

"which we've thrown away so where there's probably come from and you have to answer the question because experimentalist use probabilities to check the theory now at first sight you get very confused b..."

29
54:03 - 57:18
3:15 duration459 words

Principles in Theoretical Physics

Smolin emphasizes the importance of establishing foundational principles in theoretical physics, drawing lessons from Einstein's approach. He discusses the need for new principles in quantum gravity and the role of models in exploring these principles, advocating for a return to rigorous scientific methods.

"ideas designed to come back and answer that question they have the flavor of there are really no probabilities we admit that but imagine if you if the Everett story was true and you were living in tha..."

30
57:18 - 59:42
2:23 duration338 words

The Trouble with Physics Today

Reflecting on his book 'The Trouble with Physics,' Smolin critiques the current state of physics, particularly string theory. He discusses the challenges of unifying various theories and the need for a more grounded approach to understanding fundamental physics, emphasizing the importance of scientific rigor.

"approach that I'm taking so the so speaking of principles in your 2006 book the trouble with physics you criticized a bit string theory for taking us away from the rigors of the scientific method or w..."

31
59:01 - 1:00:43
1:42 duration240 words

Concerns Over Phenomenology

Smolin shares concerns raised by his colleague Andy Strominger regarding the overwhelming number of string theory solutions. He highlights the difficulty of making testable predictions in a landscape filled with diverse theoretical outcomes.

"many many years and Andy so originally there was this beautiful idea that there were five string theories and maybe they would be unified into one and we would discover a way to break that symmetries ..."

32
1:00:43 - 1:02:03
1:20 duration192 words

Cosmological Natural Selection

Lee Smolin introduces the concept of cosmological natural selection, drawing parallels between the evolution of laws in physics and evolutionary biology. He explains how this idea posits that the universe evolves to optimize the parameters of the standard model.

"experiments just go now it hasn't quite worked out that way but nonetheless he took that worry to me he did he we spoke at least once maybe two or three times about that and I got seriously worried ab..."

33
1:02:03 - 1:03:12
1:08 duration158 words

Testing Predictions in Physics

Smolin discusses the implications of cosmological natural selection for making testable predictions in physics. He contrasts this approach with the anthropic principle, emphasizing the potential for empirical validation of his theories.

"happy to discuss that's called cosmological natural selection cosmological natural selection yeah so so the parameters of the standard model so it says the laws of physics are changing it this this id..."

34
1:03:12 - 1:04:18
1:06 duration177 words

The Relationship Between Theories

In this segment, Smolin reflects on his work in both string theory and loop quantum gravity, arguing for the interconnectedness of these fields. He critiques the division within the physics community and advocates for a more unified approach to quantum gravity.

"could be tested from that and and I worked all of that out and I compared it to the anthropic principle where you weren't able to make tests or make falsifications all of this was in the late eighties..."

35
1:04:18 - 1:05:10
0:51 duration147 words

Methodology in Science

Smolin shares insights into his writing process for 'The Trouble with Physics,' discussing the challenges of publishing and the importance of methodology in scientific discourse. He emphasizes the need for a community-oriented approach to scientific progress.

"in my mind the idea that there were two communities one devoted to strings and one devoted to loops is nuts and this always been nuts okay so so anyway there's this nuts community of loops and strings..."

36
1:05:10 - 1:07:10
1:59 duration269 words

Reflections on Scientific Communities

Lee Smolin reflects on the dynamics within the scientific community, particularly regarding quantum gravity. He expresses regret over misunderstandings and emphasizes the importance of collaboration across different theoretical frameworks.

"chapter last part of the trouble with physics and then I described a number of test cases case studies and one of them which I knew was the search for quantum gravity and string theory and so forth an..."

37
1:07:10 - 1:09:30
2:19 duration355 words

Hope for the Future of Physics

In this concluding segment, Smolin shares his hopes for the future of theoretical physics, highlighting the growing interest among young scientists in collaborative efforts. He expresses optimism about the potential for breakthroughs in understanding the fundamental nature of reality.

"misunderstood but if I may ask is there a hopeful message for theoretical physics that we can take from that book sort of that looks at the community not just your your own work on now with causality ..."