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Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo)
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Christine Itwaru is a longtime product operations leader at Pendo and more recently has taken on the larger role of Principal Strategist there. Before leading product ops, Christine spent 12 years in product management. In this episode, we delve into the rapidly growing field of product ops and discover how Christine is part of shaping the role industry-wide. She helps us define the role of product operations, what kind of person would be a good fit for the product ops role, when your company would benefit from product ops, and what red flags to look for if you decide to go down this path. — Brought to you by Amplitude—Build better products: https://amplitude.com/ | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs: https://www.lennysjobs.com/talent | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/#transcript Where to find Christine Itwaru: • Twitter: https://twitter.com/christineitwaru • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christineitwaru/ • Website: https://theproductheart.com/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ Referenced: • Ben Williams on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.podpage.com/lennys-podcast/how-snyk-built-a-product-led-growth-juggernaut-ben-williams-vp-of-product-at-snyk/ • Pendo: https://go.pendo.io/ • Marty Cagan on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/ • Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ • Looker: https://www.looker.com/ • Tray: https://tray.io/ • Zapier: https://zapier.com/ • Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/ • Casey Winters on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/ • Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507/ • Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Leaders-Eat-Last-Together-Others/dp/1591848016/ • The Product-Led Organization: Drive Growth by Putting Product at the Center of Your Customer Experience: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Led-Organization-Putting-Customer-Experience/dp/1119660874 • Product Roadmaps Relaunched: How to Set Direction while Embracing Uncertainty: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Roadmaps-Relaunched-Direction-Uncertainty/dp/149197172X/ • The Product Experience podcast: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/the-product-experience/ • Matilda the Musical: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3447590/ • Rise on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/rise/6Yv1uRnw2uAJ • Miro: https://miro.com/ • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ • Seismic: https://seismic.com/ • Gong: https://www.gong.io/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Christine’s background (02:34) How working with Ben Williams led Christine to Lenny’s Podcast (05:02) The role of product ops in product management (07:31) How 2019 became “the summer of product ops” (11:19) The different ways product ops can assist product teams (15:50) How Pendo used product ops to bring teams together and share data (18:15) Where user research fits in (22:39) How product ops are being utilized—and not exclusively in B2B companies (24:47) How to convince a product leader that you need product ops (27:41) Why customer experience is the core of a PM’s role (29:47) Who is doing the work of the product ops person before that role is created (31:37) Christine’s response to Casey Winters’s take on ops teams (37:40) Signs your company could benefit from a product ops team (30:56) How a lack of transparency led to Pendo adding product ops (46:11) The line between product ops and product marketing (47:30) Who might be a good fit for a product ops role (53:39) Red flags for product ops roles (that apply to any role) (54:08) How product teams are structured at Pendo (57:18) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Segments Timeline
The Journey to Product Ops
Christine Itwaru shares her journey from product management to product operations, emphasizing the importance of understanding customer pain points. She reflects on her early experiences that ignited her passion for product development and how these experiences shaped her approach to product ops.
"speaking as a former PM I would not ever give up spending time with customers and watching their pain that's how I fell in love with product was I saw my internal customer 12 years back now fighting w..."
The Rise of Product Ops
Christine discusses the emergence of product operations as a distinct role within organizations, highlighting its significance in supporting product managers. She explains how product ops serves as a strategic partner, helping teams thrive and make informed decisions.
"Christine welcome to the podcast thank you I'm so happy to be here Lenny first of all I just wanted to give a big thank you to Ben Williams who's a previous guest on this podcast who suggested you joi..."
Defining Product Ops
In this segment, Christine breaks down the role of product ops into two key components: creating systems for product management success and acting as strategic advisors to product leaders. She clarifies the evolving nature of this role in the tech industry.
"have to start with the basics what's just like the simplest way to understand the role of product Ops and especially in relation to product management I've had many ways of describing this in the past..."
The Summer of Product Ops
Christine reflects on the pivotal summer of 2019, which she describes as the 'summer of product ops.' She discusses the growing demand for product ops roles and the factors that contributed to this surge, including the need for better alignment and transparency within product teams.
"make product better and I thought that was awesome because we already started talking about it right and so it took me a bit to understand what was going on across Tech that was making this thing so b..."
How Product Ops Supports Teams
Christine elaborates on the various ways product ops can assist product teams, including managing the voice of the customer and facilitating internal alignment. She emphasizes the importance of these functions in enhancing product development processes.
"through a bullet list of just those sorts of things like you said kind of responsible for voice of the customer pieces alignment across stakeholders whatever like if you could just go through some of ..."
Bridging Teams with Product Ops
In this segment, Christine explains how Pendo utilized product ops to foster collaboration among teams and improve data sharing. She highlights the role of product ops in breaking down silos and enhancing communication across departments.
"piece I want to dig in on that a little bit just to summarize what you shared to some of the kind of key roles of a product Ops person there's this voice of customer element and just understand what y..."
User Research in Product Ops
Christine discusses the integration of user research within product ops, emphasizing its critical role in informing product decisions. She explains how understanding user needs can drive better product outcomes and enhance customer satisfaction.
"so essentially it's just finding ways to make the PM more focused and allow them to focus on the things they want to focus on and reduce workload on the user research piece I'm curious so it feels lik..."
Product Ops Beyond B2B
Christine explores how product ops is being utilized across various industries, not just in B2B companies. She shares insights on the versatility of the role and its applicability in different business contexts.
"would it be safe to say that product offices essentially for B2B companies where there's all these internal stakeholders sales customer support marketing things like that and there that's the kind of ..."
Convincing Leadership for Product Ops
In this segment, Christine provides strategies for convincing product leaders of the necessity for product ops. She discusses the value that product ops brings to organizations and how it can enhance overall product strategy.
"you found is the best way to convince a PM to this is like wow this would make your life so much better and this is really yeah I go back to that that question that I have asked leaders when helping t..."
Customer Experience at the Core
Christine emphasizes that customer experience is central to a product manager's role. She discusses how product ops can help prioritize customer needs and improve the overall product experience.
"will never offload if that makes sense like in your perspective what's like the core of a PM's role versus maybe product Ops for now and then maybe potentially other roles that take off some of the st..."
Who Does Product Ops Work Before It's Established?
Christine addresses the question of who handles product ops responsibilities before the role is formally created. She highlights the importance of recognizing these functions within existing teams.
"different direction but as you mentioned that there's all these roles adjacent to PM there's program managers project managers agile product owners and all and then now product Ops I guess before team..."
Christine's Take on Ops Teams
Christine responds to Casey Winters's perspective on operations teams, discussing the evolving nature of product ops and its relationship with product management. She shares her insights on how these roles can coexist and complement each other.
"the guest on his podcast at one point and he wrote this hot take many years ago about this kind of premise that operations in general often is kind of a like a Band-Aid for inefficiency at a company a..."
Identifying the Need for Product Ops
Christine outlines the signs that indicate a company could benefit from establishing a product ops team. She discusses the challenges organizations face that product ops can help address.
"zooming out a little bit and kind of building on the stuff we've been just talking about what would you say are just signs that your company would benefit from a product Ops Team and that you're kind ..."
Transparency and Product Ops at Pendo
Christine shares how a lack of transparency within Pendo led to the decision to implement product ops. She discusses the impact of transparency on team dynamics and product success.
"line between product Ops and product marketing yeah I always say this and it's worked I haven't seen anybody dispute it um yet but product marketing positions and helps the revenue team sell their lea..."
Distinguishing Product Ops from Product Marketing
In this segment, Christine clarifies the differences between product ops and product marketing. She discusses the unique functions of each role and how they contribute to product success.
"product Ops role versus the product mandrel like someone deciding oh man maybe I should go down this other route what do you think are just signs that maybe you'd be a better fit where you enjoy that ..."
Who Fits the Product Ops Role?
Christine discusses the qualities and skills that make someone a good fit for a product ops role. She shares insights on the ideal background and mindset for success in this position.
"the kind of role you you want I think this is a red flag for any role I mentioned that it's really hard right now to put a number to the success of the role or on the success of the role but if there'..."
Red Flags in Product Ops Roles
Christine identifies red flags to watch for in product ops roles, which can apply to any position. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing potential issues before committing to a role.
"get to with people from new companies that I haven't talked to before is just to get a general sense of how the product org is structured at the company just because people are always curious just lik..."
Product Team Structure at Pendo
Christine provides an overview of how product teams are structured at Pendo. She discusses the roles and responsibilities within the team and how they collaborate to achieve product goals.
"for you I'm gonna just fire them away does that sound good yes let's do it let's do it two or three books that you recommend most to other people classic is inspired by Marty Kagan it's one of the rea..."
Favorite Podcasts and Movies
Christine discusses her favorite podcasts, including 'The Product Experience' for practical advice and 'HBR IdeaCast' for leadership insights. She also shares her recent movie picks, including the new 'Matilda' adaptation and 'Rise', a film about overcoming adversity, reflecting her interests in storytelling and personal growth.
"outside of what you're doing what would it be and why what do you look for in an answer there that tells you that this is a strong candidate versus not there are skills that are a part of that other r..."
Interview Insights: Key Questions
Christine reveals her favorite interview question: 'If you could choose any career outside of what you're doing, what would it be and why?' She explains how this question helps her gauge candidates' skills and motivations, emphasizing the importance of passion and experience in product management roles.
"yeah great list uh ones that people haven't mentioned before so that's always fun final question but something relatively minor that you've changed in pendo's product development process that has had ..."
Connecting with the Product Community
In the closing segment, Christine reflects on the importance of community in product operations. She encourages listeners to connect and share insights, especially during challenging times in the tech industry. Christine emphasizes the need for transparency and alignment within the product community to empower each other and navigate career transitions effectively.
"for the entire team that is an awesome answer this is the first time I've asked this question I think I'm going to make it a standard question now because I feel like we're going to get all kinds of c..."