"the following is a conversation with Chris lner his second time in the podcast he's one of the most brilliant engineers in modern Computing having created llvm compiler infrastructure project the clan..."

"lner what are the strongest qualities of Steve Jobs Elon Musk and the Great and Powerful Jeff Dean since you've gotten the chance to work with each you're starting with an easy question there um these..."

"guys for yourself you've LED large teams you've done so many incredible difficult technical challenges is there something you've picked up from them about how to lead yeah well so I mean I think leade..."

"get people together how do you get how do you build trust how do you get people to open up how do you people get people to you know be vulnerable sometimes with an idea that maybe isn't good enough bu..."

"get romantic on me Lex I I will forever get romantic and uh Tor here I apologize uh why do programming languages even matter okay well thank you very much so you're saying why should why why should yo..."

"doing so and so programming languages in general you have C you have Fortran and Java and a Pascal Swift you have lots of different things um they all have different trade-offs and they're T tackling ..."

"interface between the guts and the human and humans are hard right humans have feelings they have things they like they have things they don't like and a lot of people treat programming languages as t..."

"correlate perfectly with the experience of the majority of users you know like if you look at the most uploaded uh quote unquote correct answer on stack Overflow it usually really um sort of uh priori..."

"and the the debugger doesn't work right and like all these kinds of things can you clarify a little bit what uh what you mean by python is not good at building libraries meaning doesn't make certain k..."

"catching bugs at compile time is valuable for example um but if you dive into the details on this Swift for example has certain things like value semantics which is this fancy way of saying that when ..."

"and so this is where programming languages really matter right so in Swift having value sematics so that um both you get the benefit of math working like math right but also the efficiency that comes ..."

"sides right it's great because you define away the bug which is a big deal for productivity the the number one thing most people care about but it's also good for performance because when you're doing..."

"I thought I thought there was going to be a a philosophical like narrative here that you're going to have to pay a cost for it CU it sounds like uh I think value semantics is beneficial for easing of ..."

"default but then as a power user if you want to dive down to it you have full c c performance full control over low-l pointers you can call Malik if you want to call Malik this is not recommended on t..."

"shared understanding of that combined with a shared understanding of what has happened in the past that worked out well and didn't work out well um the next level out is you have the uh what's called ..."

"amount of parentheses yeah um I've also you know with Java and C++ uh the braces um you know I I like I I I enjoyed the comfort of being between braces you know python is really sorry to interrupt jus..."

"don't uh model at least the most important inherent complexity in the language then what ends up happening is that complexity gets pushed elsewhere and when it gets pushed elsewhere sometimes that's g..."

"languages should be about is it's not about tabs versus spaces or curly braces or whatever it's about how productive do you make the person and you can only see that when you have libraries that were ..."

"you can be thinking about things on a like very high level Al algorithmic level instead of thinking about okay well am I copying this tensor to a GPU or not right it's not it's not what you want to be..."

"with diets like I I'm I'm actually currently to go in parallel but in a small tangent is I've been recently eating only meat okay okay and okay so most people are like uh think that's horribly unhealt..."

"like Pearl didn't do that for me uh uh I mean kind a little bit well and again like none of these are about which which is best or something like that but there there's definitely better and worse her..."

"it really comes down to finding an excuse like build a thing that that's that the language is actually good for that the ecosystem is ready for um and so um and so if you were to write an IOS app for ..."

"learn Swift what's the pro I mean the one practical different version of that is um Swift for tensorflow for example and one of the inspiring things for me with both tensorflow and pytorch is how quic..."

"things in a new way even when you go back to the old place right yeah it's totally well Lis is functional yeah uh stuff but I wish there was a kind of window maybe you can tell me if there is uh there..."

"encountered in Swift maybe and then outside of Swift I think the thing that I like the most from a programming language so so I think the thing you have to think about with the programming language ag..."

"communities to to build high quality libraries that feel native that feel like they're built into the built into the compiler without having to be what does it mean for the int to be part of not hardc..."

"whole reference semantic value semantic thing um int gets passed around by value yeah but if you if you make if you make like a pair or something like that a complex number right it's a it's a class i..."

"and there's this open process which people can uh help evolve and direct the language so the community at large like Swift users can now help shape the language as it is and what happened is that part..."

"first principles on where you're coming from and what you're trying to achieve and being anchored on the objective is really important well let me ask you about uh the most uh sort of this this uh thi..."

"you think about AGA stepping down over it yeah if well if like if I look past the details of the W walrus operator one of the things that makes it most polarizing is that it's syntactic sugar okay wha..."

"Guido uh I I don't know Guido well um yeah have you a pass cross much yeah I've met him a couple of times but I don't know Guido well but the the sense that I got out of that whole dynamic was that he..."

"Congress works it slowed down everything it's a dampener yeah it's a dampener but like that's a dangerous thing too because if it dampens things like you know dampening results what are you talking ab..."

"because if they don't then they're not going to be able to make the turn even if you tell them you know their bonuses are going to be curtailed they're just not going to like buy into it you know and ..."

"see more of or less of um but it's a way to provide a defense mechanism so that when somebody's griping about it they're not saying that person did the wrong thing they're saying well this this thing ..."

"you look at Swift there's several different parts to the Swift compiler um one of which is covered by um the LM part of it there's also a highle piece that's specific to Swift and there's a huge amoun..."

"accelerators so machine learning for example there are a lot of uh Matrix multiply accelerators and things like this there there's a whole world of Hardware synthesis so we're using ml to build circui..."

"ml so what ml what ml does is it allows you to build these compilers very efficiently right now one of the things that coming back to the lvm thing and then we'll go to Hardware is um lvm is is a spec..."

"mistakes that lived in LV so now you have this community Dynamic where it's like well there's this new thing but it's not familiar nobody knows it it feels like it's new and so let's not trust it and ..."

"this architecture called risk 5 risk 5 is a new instruction set instruction sets are the things inside of your computer that tell how to run things um x86 from Intel and arm from the arm company and t..."

"these things yeah so here it's the specifications open source it's like saying tcpip is an open standard or C Is An Open standard but then you have to build an implementation of the standard and so sc..."

"specifies how um how the you know you turn uh code for the chip into uh little rectangles that then use Photo lithography to make uh mask sets and then burn transistors onto a chip or onto a onto sili..."

"tools for Designing so the risk five is a instruction like what is risk five like how deep does it go how how how much does it touch the hardware how much does it Define how much of the hardware is ye..."

"to okay yeah and then uh the tooling you mentioned the disperate tools are for what for for when you're building a specific chip so RIS five in Hardware in Hardware yeah so so RIS five you can buy ris..."

"and so that process I will I can't help but see it is is a big compiler okay it's a whole bunch of compilers written without thinking about it through that lens isn't isn't the universe a compiler in ..."

"hardware and and so well we'll talk a little about uh a little more about as6 but um do you see that a lot of people a lot of companies will try to have a like different sets of requirements that this..."

"have instruction sets that come and go like one example of this out of many is uh uh sun with spark yeah Sun one away spark still lives on it Fujitsu but we have uh HP had this instruction set called ..."

"stuck right what risk 5 does is it provides you more optionality in the space because if you buy uh an implementation of RIS five from SciFi and you should they're the best ones yeah um uh but if some..."

"33 and now it's twice as fast MH right well it was twice as fast at doing exactly the same thing okay like literally the same program ran twice as fast you just wrote a check okay and waited a year ye..."

"on a small tangent then I think most programming languages are designed for CPUs for single core even just in their Spirit even if they allow for paralyzation so what does it look like for programming..."

"look at Cuda Cuda is a point halfway in the space where in Cuda when you write a Cuda kernel for your GPU it feels like you're writing a scaler program so you're like you have ifs you have for Loops s..."

"more yeah well so so a lot of this comes down to this whole idea of having the nuts and bolts underneath the covers that work really well so you need if you're talking to tpus you need you know ml or ..."

"things are really hard problems and um in this world I I think that not a lot of effort has been put into that design problem and thinking about the layering in other pieces well you've uh on the topi..."

"when you have multiple different computers or multiple different threads that are communicating it's best for them to be asynchronous right and so you need things to be able to run separately and then..."

"programming and of course when you start talking about the the big the big future the the manifesto doesn't go into it but uh accelerators are asyn things you talk to asynchronously by sending message..."

"building a simple model that you can explain that then has an escape hatch so you get in you have guard rails you uh memory safety works like this in Swift where you can start with you like by default..."

"in this funny position where what do I do I don't change my code I don't fix that bug it cost 10 10x performance now what do I do well this is the problem with unpredictable performance right if if yo..."

"abstraction layer that enables the compiler people to go and exploit that and you can drive supercomputers from python that's that's pretty cool that's amazing so just to pause on that I cuz I'm not s..."

"Innovation is there on the lower level so closer to the to the as6 so redesigning the hardware or redesigning concurrently compilers with that Hardware is that like if you were to predict the biggest ..."

"beautiful exposition of but if you were to uh Force to bet all your money on one of these would you why do we have to that's unfortunately we have people working on all this it's an exciting time righ..."

"power of compilers is not just about how do you make the same thing go faster it's how do you unlock the new hardware right a new chip came out how do you utilize it you say oh the programming model h..."

"know Quantum Quantum Quantum systems are the bottom of the T pile of so far yeah and so we don't know efficient ways to implement Quantum systems without using quantum computers yeah and that's totall..."

"the on the quantum computer side because everything we've talked about with uh with you work with sci-fi with every with compilers none of that includes quantum computers right that's true so have you..."

"literally a science project and um the progress there is amazing and so I don't know if it's 10 years away if it's 2 years away exactly where that breakthrough happens but um you look at uh machine le..."

"all these projects it's kind of if we just step back and zoom out about the way you did that work and we look at covid times this pandemic we're living through that may if I look at the way Silicon Va..."

"sucks right and so um the the nature the the actual communication or just sucks being not in with people like on a daily basis and collaborating with them yeah all of that right I mean everything this..."

"all the pressure because of all the the Badness in the world that's coming together it's really kind of igniting some of that debate that should have happened a long time ago right I mean I think that..."

"like mob uh pick a person that screwed up and like make it a big thing yeah and uh is there something that we can like have you observed that in other places is there is there some way out of I think ..."

"and I don't know where that goes um yeah I mean the reason I think about that I I mentioned to you this offline a little bit but uh you know I have uh a few difficult conversations scheduled some of t..."

"should not have bias in the data but people piled on to him because he said he trivialize the problem of bias like it's a lot more than just bias and the data but like yes that's a very good point but..."

"that as reinforcing individual circles and the US versus them thing and I think that's fairly divisive yeah I think uh there's a big role in like the people that bother me most on Twitter when I obser..."

"always a rough ride and you you came into this by saying like what do Co and all the the social Strife that's happening right now mean and I think that it's really bad in the short term but I think it..."

"bad thing I think that's the question yeah and for that it's good to study history I'm one of the big problems for me right now is I'm reading the rise and fall of the Third Reich Light reading so it'..."

"bad and so it's a good way to think about times now like on an individual level what we decide to do is when when history is written you know 30 years from now what happened in 2020 probably history's..."

"productive and hurts fewer people yeah like a single person single event can turn all of absolutely everything starts somewhere and often It's a combination of multiple factors but but yeah this is th..."

"it's not clear to me that software 2.0 is um the answer and probably Andre wouldn't argue that it's the the answer for every problem either but um I look at machine learning as not a replacement for s..."

"you start talking about differentiable programming something that I am very excited about in the context of machine learning talking about taking functions and generating uh variance like the derivati..."

"Bootloader for your computer in with a deep learning model deep learning models are very uh Hardware intensive they're very energy intensive because you have a lot of parameters and you can provably I..."

"when I make a classification that's wrong and now I uh hurt somebody right I mean all these things you have to reason about yeah but at the same time the bootloader that works for our for us humans is..."

"across Computing in general is that being laser focused on one Paradigm often put you in a box it's not super great and so you look at object ear programming like it was all the rage in the early 80s ..."

"you're you're working in you have to combine that that thing with the robot control for the arm right and so now it's not just about that one uh Paradigm it's about integrating that with all the other..."

"extremely powerful and I think the people underestimate them um maybe you can suggest what I should do so of uh you know access to the gpt3 API would I be able to generate Swift code for example do yo..."

"want to have and I don't know that that these models are up to the task is you want to be able to say um here's a scaffolding and here are the assertions at the end and the assertions always pass and ..."

"generate uh checks like that are more um High Fidelity that check for correctness because uh the coded generates like say I ask it to generate a function that um gives me the Bacci sequence sure I don..."

"you like right but pick HTML how do I say I want google.com well no you could say or not not literally google.com how do I say I want a web page that's got a shopping cart and this and that that does ..."

"can check oh the button is red but the for more uh for more complicated functions where the intent is harder to check this goes into like MP completeness kind of things like I want to know that this c..."

"um and see and see what uh the the bright minds are thinking about right now but I don't think the GPT is in that that vein it's still really cool yeah and surpris who knows you know maybe reasoning i..."

"life and been very successful a bunch of young folks listen to this ask for advice from successful people like you uh if you were to give advice to uh somebody you know another a graduate student or s..."

"anything here we are all biological things programmed to survive and and propagate our our DNA um and maybe the is just a just a computer and you you just go until entropy takes over the world and or ..."

"because a lot of things that we do we find ourselves in the cycle of like okay I'm doing a thing I'm very familiar with it I've done it for a long time I've never done anything else but I'm not really..."

"I I love to see that that aha moment where you're like we've like really cracked this this is something never nobody's ever done before and then if you can do it in a context where it adds value other..."

"but do we really yeah right I'm not prepared to say that th those new fangled agis have no soul just because we don't understand them right and I think that would be um when they when they exist uh th..."

"not having a personal challenge not having a personal contribution whether that be like you know your kids and seeing what they grow into and helping helping guide them whether it be um your community..."

"make it yeah well and why not what's what's the other side right so I mean uh uh I I'm not personally a very religious person but I've heard people say like oh yeah of course I believe in God of cours..."

"think that's other another thing to think about as you know a human particularly if you're young and trying to figure out what it is that you want to be when you grow up like I am um I'm always lookin..."

"yourself you're building your capabilities you're building your viewpoints you're building your perspective and um I think that a lot of the cons the consuming of other people's me messages leads to k..."