All Segments
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind | E158
47 segments available
This is the last episode of our USA series, over the past few months we've been releasing some incredible conversations that I'm sure you'll agree have brought us more value, more incredible stories, and more world-beating expertise. Michael Pollan is an author who between his five New York Times bestsellers has sold millions of books. Through exploring our connection to the natural world, he reveals sides of ourselves that we never knew we had. Topics: 00:00 Intro 01:32 Follow your passion 05:48 Immersive journalism 09:26 Trying to solve systemic problems with individual acts, BLM & food system 17:09 Caffeine and its impact on us 26:37 Pollination & drugs 30:18 Psychedelics 49:47 Are psychedelics the cure to mental health problems? 52:04 When to do psychedelics 52:04 How to freshen your mind & get out of your comfort zone 01:04:08 Our last guest’s question Michael: https://www.instagram.com/michael.pollan/ https://twitter.com/michaelpollan/ Michael’s book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/This-Your-Plants-Michael-Pollan/ Michael’s Netflix series: https://www.netflix.com/title/80229847 Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsor: Huel - https://my.huel.com/Steven
Segments Timeline
The Power of Psychedelics
Michael Pollan discusses the potential of psychedelics to treat mental health disorders like depression and anxiety. He highlights how these substances can break rigid thought patterns and offers a critical perspective on their risks, emphasizing the need for a balanced conversation about their benefits and dangers.
"depression anxiety addiction mental disorders that involve a rigidity of thought what psychedelics appear to do is break those habits of thought what is the cost of this though it's a great question o..."
A Personal Journey into Psychedelics
Steven Bartlett shares his personal journey into the psychedelics industry, motivated by the rising mental health crisis in the UK. He reflects on the alarming statistics surrounding suicide rates among young men and expresses his desire to contribute positively to this field.
"michael i have to say it's a real a huge honor to speak to you when i departed from my company and i started investigating what i was interested in one of the things alongside djing and this podcast a..."
Finding Success Through Curiosity
Michael Pollan reflects on his success as an author, attributing it to his ability to identify underexplored topics. He emphasizes the importance of curiosity and passion in his writing process, explaining how these elements drive him to delve into subjects that others overlook.
"to the psychedelics industry that's how i came to actually work in the psychedelics industry and when i arrived in that industry people said your name over and over and over again and they told me and..."
The Art of Storytelling
Pollan discusses his unique storytelling approach, which involves taking readers on a journey of discovery rather than presenting them with all the answers upfront. He believes that this method engages readers more effectively and fosters a deeper connection to the material.
"small handful of people within the psychedelic community who write these books for one another that nobody else reads and they and so i had i i remember thinking the whole time i was writing that book..."
Immersive Journalism: A Personal Touch
Pollan shares how immersive journalism has shaped his writing style. He recounts a pivotal moment from his youth that inspired him to engage deeply with his subjects, illustrating how personal experiences enhance the authenticity of his narratives.
"so i do cultivate that when i see something happening i remember when i first read a little article in the new york times saying they were giving psilocybin to cancer patients to help them deal with t..."
Following a Cow: A Unique Perspective
In a fascinating anecdote, Pollan describes his experience of buying a cow to understand the meat industry better. He explains how this personal investment allowed him to gain insights into the agricultural system, highlighting the importance of firsthand experience in journalism.
"this a lot recently um but i can trace the moment where i was first exposed to the kind of journalism that i think of myself as doing and that was when i was 13 my parents gave me a a book called pape..."
The Ethics of Food Production
Pollan reflects on the ethical implications of food production, particularly in the meat industry. He discusses the public's emotional attachment to individual animals versus the systemic issues within agriculture, emphasizing the need for a broader understanding of food systems.
"way that no sports writer could but neither any football player could because they had been doing it since they were 10 or 6 and they no longer saw it freshly it was a job but he had this incredible s..."
The Challenge of Systemic Change
Pollan critiques the tendency for individuals to focus on symbolic acts of kindness, such as saving a single animal, rather than addressing systemic issues in food production. He draws parallels to social movements, urging a deeper engagement with the complexities of societal problems.
"to um check it out for free but along the way that one of the ranchers said if you really want to understand our business you should buy one of these animals and i thought immediately this is a great ..."
Virtue Signaling vs. Real Change
In a thought-provoking discussion, Pollan addresses the phenomenon of virtue signaling in social movements, using the example of George Floyd's death and the subsequent black tile posts on social media. He challenges listeners to consider the deeper systemic issues that require attention beyond surface-level actions.
"anymore um and it's interesting when this piece came out there was a whole uh explosion in the american media of people who wanted to save the cow because they knew he hadn't been killed yet and i had..."
Virtue Signaling vs. Systemic Change
Pollan critiques the phenomenon of virtue signaling, particularly in the context of social movements like Black Lives Matter. He argues that while expressing solidarity through social media is easy, it fails to address the deeper systemic issues of racism and discrimination. He emphasizes the need for more substantial actions beyond symbolic gestures to create real change.
"start out on grass kind of idyllic situation in in south dakota move on to this horrible feedlot where they stand in their own manure all day and eat corn which makes them sick and they have to take d..."
The Role of Law in Social Change
In this segment, Pollan explores the importance of legal reforms in addressing systemic discrimination. He argues that while moral campaigns are well-intentioned, they often overlook the necessity of changing laws to create lasting impact. He highlights the ongoing issues of voter suppression and the need for concrete actions to ensure equality and justice.
"socially whatever black tile but again that the complexity of the system below it that's kind of cool might be the cause of some of these things is just does anybody really care to deal with that you ..."
The Backlash of Shaming
Pollan discusses the counterproductive nature of shaming individuals into compliance regarding social justice issues. He reflects on the backlash that can arise from such tactics, particularly in the wake of George Floyd's death, and suggests that fostering positive emotions and constructive dialogue may be more effective in promoting social change.
"you know we're approaching it in america at the level of everyone's soul we're trying to reform everyone's soul with anti-racism campaigns and things like that we'll see if it works i tend to think it..."
The Need for Positive Politics
In this thought-provoking segment, Pollan advocates for a political approach centered around positive emotions and constructive actions. He emphasizes the importance of creating an environment where people feel empowered to engage in social change, rather than feeling pressured or shamed into compliance.
"george floyd's death only resulted in this kind of like apparent social compliance not change like okay now i have to pretend to be this person and that like compliance again is not what we're looking..."
Caffeine: The Hidden Costs
Pollan transitions to discussing caffeine and its pervasive role in society. He raises concerns about the hidden costs of caffeine consumption, particularly its impact on mental health and natural rhythms. He questions the societal normalization of caffeine dependence and its implications for our well-being.
"didn't there was something wrong yeah yeah i definitely saw a lot of that um i don't know i just think we need i think our politics has to be organized around um more positive emotions i mean make peo..."
The Science of Caffeine's Effects
In this segment, Pollan delves into the science behind caffeine's effects on the brain and body. He explains how caffeine blocks adenosine, a neurotransmitter that signals the body to slow down and prepare for sleep, leading to a cycle of dependence and rebound exhaustion once the caffeine wears off.
"i think it's i think we should consider whether this politics is working or not um and i i would suggest it might not be i would agree um we started talking about the topic of like immersive journalis..."
The Challenge of Quitting Caffeine
Pollan shares his personal experience of giving up caffeine for three months as part of his immersive journalism. He describes the withdrawal symptoms he faced and the challenges of adjusting to life without caffeine, highlighting the importance of understanding one's relationship with substances.
"like every other drug like heroin and cocaine is going to be equally um destructive yeah i mean i you know you're talking about the law of compensation i think is what ralph waldo emerson called it an..."
Caffeine and Identity
In this reflective segment, Pollan discusses how caffeine has become intertwined with our identities and daily routines. He notes that many people rely on caffeine to function socially and mentally, raising questions about the long-term effects of this dependence on our natural rhythms and overall health.
"it builds sleep pressure um and uh what caffeine does is it fits exactly in the same receptor and hijacks it basically blocks the adenosine from getting to that receptor so the adenosine is still in y..."
The Cost of Caffeine Consumption
Pollan examines the broader implications of caffeine consumption on our health and identity as humans. He discusses how our reliance on caffeine disrupts natural cycles and may contribute to sleep issues, emphasizing the need for awareness of the costs associated with this common substance.
"and psilocybin and 5 meow dmt and all these things that were really scary and hard for me but this was harder giving up caffeine for three months um really was a stretch and but it was a really intere..."
Caffeine's Impact on Sleep
In this segment, Pollan highlights the relationship between caffeine consumption and sleep quality. He explains how caffeine can interfere with sleep patterns and discusses the importance of understanding its effects on our health, particularly in relation to the natural rhythms of our bodies.
"ego strength to launch into a writing project or launch into it every day and i just didn't have it and uh so i was like i don't know i don't know if i can do this for three months after the first wee..."
The Need for Self-Regulation
Pollan concludes by reflecting on the importance of self-regulation in our consumption habits, particularly regarding caffeine. He suggests that understanding the impact of substances on our bodies can lead to healthier choices and a more balanced relationship with our daily routines.
"the reason is they're going through withdrawal and they're cranky and they know it the amount of people probably in this room now there's probably no 12 people in this building and of them i think pro..."
The Cost of Caffeine
Michael Pollan discusses the effects of caffeine on our bodies and identities, emphasizing how it disrupts our natural rhythms and sleep patterns. He highlights the importance of sleep for mental health and reflects on the potential long-term consequences of daily caffeine consumption.
"with you i mean for some people on three cups a day they get pretty jittery um and it passes over from this very positive feeling to this nervous feeling and that's that's a cost um i think the larger..."
Caffeine's Historical Impact
Pollan explores the historical significance of coffee, noting its role in social interactions and public health. He discusses how coffee houses were pivotal in the development of institutions like Lloyd's of London and the London Stock Exchange, and how caffeine contributed to the Enlightenment by promoting clearer thinking.
"coffee is i slept like a teenager it was fantastic i had some great sleeps my sort of logical mind when it understands how other drugs impact us and the withdrawals and how they impact our rhythms our..."
Caffeine as a Plant Strategy
In this segment, Pollan explains how caffeine functions as a pesticide for plants, deterring insects while also attracting pollinators like bees. He shares fascinating insights into how plants have evolved to use caffeine to manipulate their environment and enhance their reproductive success.
"historically there have been the benefits have outweighed the costs of i mean compared to other drugs um i think that we've gained a lot and there's the whole social aspect of coffee i mean the coffee..."
Psychedelics and Connection
Pollan transitions to discussing psychedelics, sharing his initial fears and misconceptions about them. He recounts his journey of exploring psychedelics for immersive journalism, highlighting transformative experiences that reshaped his understanding of spirituality and connection to nature.
"are a lot of positives you talk about the reason why why coffee is addictive anyway from a pollination perspective which i found really yeah i've said that before yeah so that was one of the interesti..."
Redefining Spirituality
Pollan reflects on his profound experiences with psilocybin, describing moments of ego dissolution and deep connection with nature. He articulates a new definition of spirituality as a connection to something larger than oneself, emphasizing the beauty of these experiences without invoking the supernatural.
"the plant had drugged him so that he would lose track of where it was oh wow so i thought that was a pretty clever plan certainly more clever than frank was speaking of clever plants then transition y..."
Psychedelics and Unlearning
In this segment, Pollan explains how psychedelics can help individuals unlearn the narrow materialist worldview that limits our perception of consciousness. He argues that psychedelics can restore a child's perspective on the interconnectedness of all living beings, allowing for a deeper understanding of our place in the natural world.
"know going back to descartes um who you know thought that we were the only thinking creature and and no other creature felt pain or had consciousness um and most of us still sort of believe that i thi..."
Personal Experiences with Psychedelics
Pollan recounts his personal experiences with psychedelics, particularly with the San Pedro cactus. He describes a transformative moment where he felt a profound connection with the plants around him, leading to a realization of shared existence and the loss of self-importance, which left a lasting impact on his perception of life.
"that's just that's a spiritual question too i my first real experience with the psychedelic was san pedro actually the cactus yeah yeah really interesting experience so i drunk this drink um with my p..."
Meditation and Psychedelic Insights
Pollan discusses how his experiences with psychedelics have influenced his meditation practice. He explains that psychedelics can create pathways in consciousness that facilitate meditation, allowing individuals to revisit those insights and maintain a meditative state, thus nurturing a deeper connection to their inner selves.
"thing and i was in awe of that that feeling obviously you don't forget the feeling you don't forget the memory but you almost you lose the feeling a little bit you do i think you do i think you go bac..."
The Promise and Caution of Psychedelics
In this segment, Pollan addresses the promising research surrounding psychedelics for mental health treatment, particularly for conditions like depression and anxiety. He emphasizes the need for caution, noting that while results are impressive, expectations should be tempered as the field matures and more studies are conducted.
"not is that after a big psychedelic trip you're not saying when can i do it again you're saying do i ever have to do it again and um because it's hard work and it can be overwhelming but there is a re..."
The Bubble of Psychedelic Investment
Pollan warns about the potential bubble in psychedelic investment, drawing parallels to past trends in technology and agriculture. He cautions that while there is real potential in psychedelic research, the excitement surrounding it could lead to unrealistic expectations and potential disappointments in the industry.
"and and some people have really hard experiences on psychedelics that tends to be the case with that sort of bubble that you described tends to be the case with all new industries the internet cryptoc..."
Understanding Mental Disorders
Pollan explores the relationship between psychedelics and mental disorders, suggesting that psychedelics may help break rigid thought patterns associated with conditions like depression and anxiety. He presents the idea that psychedelics act as a solvent for these mental blocks, promoting brain plasticity and the ability to form new patterns of thought.
"obsessive-compulsive disorder addiction all of these are mental disorders that involve a kind of rigidity of thought people stuck in loops of rumination um inflexible thinking they need this drug to g..."
The Nature of Mental Disorders
Pollan questions the classification of mental disorders, suggesting they may be symptoms of a common underlying issue rather than distinct conditions. He discusses how anxiety and depression can be viewed as different manifestations of similar mental constructs, highlighting the need for a deeper understanding of mental health.
"allowing you to take any path you want down the hill so i think it has to do with habitual thinking rigid brains stuck brains brains that have too much order and need to be disordered a bit so you kno..."
The Role of Awe in Psychedelics
Pollan reflects on the profound emotional experiences often reported after psychedelic use, particularly feelings of gratitude and love. He emphasizes the importance of awe in human experience and how psychedelics can help individuals reconnect with these fundamental emotions, which are often overshadowed by daily routines.
"and so you know i mean if you if you think about it anxiety is is worry about the future depression is really of being a victim of the past but it's a similar mental construct and psychedelics appears..."
Finding Fresh Perspectives
In this segment, Pollan discusses the value of psychedelics in fostering fresh perspectives and breaking free from habitual thinking. He contrasts the experiences of children, who encounter awe daily, with adults, who often fall into repetitive patterns. Pollan suggests that psychedelics can serve as a catalyst for rediscovering wonder.
"but but habits blind you to reality you know they they you're one step removed from experience you're you're saying okay that's this situation i'm gonna play this tape and you don't you lose your sens..."
Alternatives to Psychedelics
Pollan and his host discuss alternative methods to achieve mental freshness without psychedelics, such as travel and learning new skills. He highlights how new experiences can disrupt established patterns and invigorate the mind, emphasizing the importance of stepping out of comfort zones.
"most important thing in the world and we laugh and it sounds like a hallmark card and such a cliche but what is a cliche it's just it's a truth that's been overused and and and we protect ourselves wi..."
The Power of New Experiences
Pollan elaborates on how engaging in new experiences, like travel or learning, can revitalize one's perspective. He shares personal insights on how journalism allows him to explore new fields, reinforcing the idea that novelty is essential for maintaining mental agility and avoiding stagnation.
"something yes i know i know and without using psychedelics i mean learning something new doing something new is incredibly um revitalizing travel is i mean think of think of like how when you travel s..."
The Impact of Conversations
Pollan reflects on how engaging conversations can evoke feelings similar to psychedelic experiences, prompting new insights and perspectives. He emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with new information and ideas to break free from habitual thinking.
"um yes but you know and and some jobs don't allow you to do that that is in the nature of journalism it's the nature of what you do you get to talk to anybody so before i ask the question i was thinki..."
Gratitude and Relationships
In this segment, Pollan discusses the emotional impact of psychedelics, particularly the feelings of gratitude they can evoke for loved ones. He stresses the importance of expressing appreciation for relationships and the often-overlooked value of gratitude in daily life.
"thinking then about how when people get older they tend to go on holidays to the same places yes when probably young they go to somewhere new they don't yeah they don't want to repeat themselves yeah ..."
Breath Work as a Consciousness Tool
Pollan introduces breath work as a non-pharmacological method for altering consciousness, developed by psychiatrist Stan Grof. He explains how specific breathing patterns can induce trance-like states similar to psychedelics, highlighting the potential of breath work in personal exploration and emotional release.
"something i've heard you talk about as well yeah so breath work is a non-pharmacological mode of uh changing consciousness it was developed by stan groff a sec a czech psychiatrist who who worked in t..."
Experiencing Breath Work
Pollan shares a personal experience with breath work, describing the emotional release and gratitude he felt during the session. He emphasizes the profound impact that conscious breathing can have on mental states and the importance of being aware of one's breathing patterns in daily life.
"very much like a psychedelic state it was really eerie how it works um you basically find yourself losing control of your limbs i mean it's very physical yes you're on your back and you're dancing and..."
The Science Behind Breath Work
In this segment, Pollan discusses the physiological effects of breath work, including its potential to alter brain function. He draws parallels between breath work and psychedelics, suggesting that both may reduce activity in certain brain areas, leading to expanded consciousness and new insights.
"future uh the narrative self the story you tell yourself about your life how you fit everything into the story of who you are it's if the if the ego had an address it would be the default mode network..."
Breathing and Anxiety Management
Pollan concludes by discussing practical breathing techniques for managing anxiety. He shares a specific method involving controlled inhalation and exhalation, emphasizing how conscious breathing can help counteract feelings of anxiety and promote mental clarity.
"involuntary yeah and they were in the air for 15 minutes and it didn't hurt my muscles and the other thing was i i went to this strange emotional place where i felt a huge amount of gratitude for cert..."
Harnessing Breath for Stress Relief
In this segment, Pollan explains how he uses breathing exercises to combat anxiety, particularly before public speaking. He introduces techniques like the 4-7-8 method, which can quickly lower stress levels and improve focus. This discussion underscores the importance of breath in regulating emotions and enhancing mental clarity.
"the the education about how we breathe so shallowly right and especially when i'm anxious if i'm ever anxious and i think about it i'm i'm i'm breathing yeah very 20 of what i usually breathe so one o..."
Exploring Consciousness: Pollan's Next Project
Pollan reveals his upcoming project focused on the science and philosophy of consciousness. He discusses the fundamental questions surrounding consciousness, including its purpose and the implications for our understanding of the environment. This segment captures Pollan's curiosity and commitment to exploring complex topics that challenge conventional thinking.
"i mean breath is amazing and um uh i i think you can do a lot to fiddle with your consciousness using breath genuinely of all the things that people have prescribed or told me the simplest thing that ..."
The Environmental Implications of Consciousness
In this thought-provoking segment, Pollan connects the concept of consciousness to environmental issues. He reflects on how our understanding of consciousness influences our relationship with nature and the ethical considerations that arise from it. Pollan draws on Native American perspectives to highlight the importance of recognizing the consciousness of all living beings.
"me you know again i don't know where i'm going um but that's the that's the exciting part of writing quick one we bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio whe..."
The Challenge of Understanding Consciousness
Pollan discusses the challenges he faces in researching consciousness, including the need to grasp complex neuroscience concepts. He expresses his desire to make difficult subjects accessible and engaging for readers. This segment emphasizes the importance of curiosity and the pursuit of knowledge in Pollan's work.
"describe it so so getting consciousness right means getting a lot of things right um so wish me good luck no idea i'm sure you're going to do an unbelievable job on that because you always have on you..."
Building Resilience Through New Experiences
In the closing segment, Pollan reflects on the importance of seeking new experiences to build resilience. He discusses how breaking habits and exploring new projects can lead to personal growth. This conversation highlights the value of curiosity and the willingness to step outside of comfort zones.
"lot of satisfaction from taking a subject that people think might be very dry and difficult and and helping people make sense of it you know that there's a tradition on this podcast where the previous..."