"Tetrogrammaton. Tetro. One thing that's really changed over the course of 2025 was people started to use chat GBPT for much more personal very intimate applications. For example, so my wife has comple..."

"What changes with each new model? >> Everything. And the way to think about it is that we from the outside perception is, oh, you're just scaling up the models. You're just doing this kind of dumb thi..."

"Tell me about your co-founder Sam. He seems to generate strong reactions out in the world. I think Sam is very misunderstood by the world and I think that the way I think about Sam is that he is a ver..."

"Tell me the story of the firing. It was a big story. >> It was a much bigger story than I would have ever expected. >> What led to it and what happened? >> I would say for the year, maybe year and a h..."

"What do they tell you? Well, they tell me essentially the same information that was in the public press release saying that Sam's been fired, saying that Mirror is the interim CEO and saying that I've..."

"Yeah. >> Still want to do it >> and she said yes. >> And this is something that you co-founded from the beginning and have spent at that time how many years? Eight years. >> Eight years. >> Eight year..."

"The thing that happened was prior to then I think that it looks like there's a firing something terrible must have happened. And the thing that changed it was when I quit. I wrote a very short message..."

"And then what happened next? >> Well, so we started to get a lot of calls from people and it was truly surprising to me the number of people reached out saying, "I don't know if you're planning on doi..."

">> It's like a mutiny >> a little bit. It was the people who were just like all right like we see what happened. This is not right. We need to go do something different. >> Yeah. >> And then we just s..."

">> Yeah. And the next day we have the meeting around 1 1 pm. That day was again amazing energy. We spent a lot of time on charting out what the new company would be. That night the executive team came..."

"And that night, that Sunday night, the board decided that hey, we're going to replace Mura as interim CEO with a different interim CEO. And the company went wild and just rejected it and said this is ..."

"And I remember I went to sleep very late because I was comforting all the people who were, you know, trying to figure out what was going on and saying, "We have a plan. Here's how it looks." And that ..."

"And that morning I remember waking up 5:00 a.m. or so and I check Twitter and I see a post from Millia. And for me, I feel emotional even just talking about this. >> Yeah. I remember when the firing h..."

"How would you say the company is different since that event? >> Extremely. In what way? >> It took us time to really live by the have the hard conversation and to really figure out how do you get ahea..."

"And of course, you know, it plays out in all sorts of different ways and forms, but fundamentally I think that for me getting to a aligned board leadership team company that's moving in one direction ..."

"One of my approaches throughout OpenAI has been I had this mantra of keep the band together. >> Yeah. >> And through various splits that we had, that was the approach I took is to say, hey, we've got ..."

"Yeah. Tell me what you remember about our David and Goliath conversation. >> Huh? Because I feel like this relates. >> Yeah, we did we did talk about it and I'm trying to remember exactly what context..."

"What was the difference in vision? >> So control. The reason that we could not get to a deal with him because we all agreed that we're going to need far more capital than we can get through philanthro..."

"But the thing that he came back with was to say, "Hey, either commit to the nonprofit, which means giving Elon more board seats, but it would be, you know, Ilas, Greg, Elon, Elon, Elon. You'd have to ..."

"It's a different thing. It's a different thing. it doesn't feel like it's likely to succeed and it's not like pushing on AGI in like this transparent way that's going to benefit people. And so we went..."

"We kind of started to get iffy on it. And then he sent an email saying, you know, I've decided I will not support the ICO. This all kind of played out in January of 2018. And then at that point, he sa..."

"So, we began over the next year to figure out, yeah, how do we actually raise these large quantum of capital? >> Was it all cool with Elon at that point? >> For sure. Yes. I mean, I think it was very ..."

"Yeah, I don't think he would have sent it if he didn't think you were destined to fail. So, >> yeah, >> I agree. That have been his theme for for that whole year. And I think that things really change..."

"As nutrition science advanced through the mid-20th century, researchers began to understand that modern eating patterns, limited variety, processed foods, and time constraints could leave small but me..."

"How did you end up getting into business with Microsoft? >> So Microsoft was an early partner. We got compute donated from them for our Dota project. So that was the very beginning of it. And over tim..."

"How did your business change when you had the influx of cash? >> I would say that my ethos is always to remember we have not earned any of this. We are not a profitable company and so we spend a ton o..."

"and it sounds like you were aligned. >> Yes, >> it made sense. >> Yes. >> Does chat GBT believe in God? I would say chatbt does not have a consistent personality and the way we think about it is that ..."

"Would you say that the breakthroughs coming are coming faster and faster or is the rate of change the same as it's been from the beginning? >> The exponential continues and so the doubling period is t..."

"Do you feel like they just haven't been trained up or tested enough in those realms? Is that why? Because there's something missing. >> I think we just really need to figure out how to train them for ..."

"Are you still coding? >> I am. >> It's unusual for someone who is in your position to continue coding. No. >> Yes. >> Do you just feel a connection to it? I feel that the way that I know the right dir..."

"How do we actually go from nothing to something? And it was actually the hardest projects I've ever worked on because it felt totally backwards, right? The way that you're supposed to build a product ..."

"Do you feel like if you took a year off from the building part, could you come back or is it something that if you're not always on top of it, is it moving so fast that it would run away? Well, I actu..."

"Tell me about when chat GPT first came out. What was it like seeing people experiencing talking to it? It was a totally new thing. >> At the time, we trained GPD4. >> Yeah. It was very clear to me tha..."

"Sora would get that totally wrong and it just breaks the experience entirely. But I think that what Sora represents in my mind is creative potential. And we saw very much with last year when we releas..."

">> How did it learn the physical world? >> Same way that our text models learn. The way that it learns is through observing video, right? Through observing the world and trying to predict what will ha..."

">> How many employees are there at Open AI now? >> We're about 5,000 people. >> And what do they do? >> A lot of different things. So we have a about maybe a thousand maybe 1500 people that are in res..."

"How did he learn to lead such a big company? >> It is new to me. It is new and it's not what I set out to do either. >> Yeah. >> Being under Dunar's number and having a tight connection across everyon..."

"Of all the things to focus on in AI, how do you decide where your time goes? >> This is always a very tough question. >> Yeah. >> And I think there's a combination of intuition. And I think that what ..."

"Would you say every few months or every year you're focused on something completely different than what you were before? >> Yes. >> Do you like that? Is that fun? >> I do. Yes. It's never boring. Wher..."

"For example, I spent some time working with the Arc Institute to train DNA models. So you just take the exact same type of models that we train for language and instead you put DNA sequences in. So ra..."

"In the way normal people use chat GPT, they ask it a question, they get an answer. Do you think they want the right answer or do you think they just want an answer? >> I think it depends. I think user..."

"LM NT element electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add element electrolytes to your..."

">> Tell me about the financial side of OpenAI. Is it profitable yet or still in growth mode? >> Still in growth mode. Definitely not profitable. Is there a vision to profitability? >> There is. But I ..."

"Will there be some breakthrough in that area where it won't be a problem in the future? >> No. Because the way that this works, there's Jeff's paradox. Are you familiar with Jeff's paradox? It's if yo..."

"Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young. When I was young, I think I really believed that people would always directly carry out, honestly carry out whatever form..."

">> How does your company function different than how Stripe functioned? >> Because we started as a research company. We had a very different founding DNA. And I think one thing that is very different ..."

"Now, we're not profitable yet, right? But our operation, our ability to actually bring to bear both a business that is self- sustaining and also a philanthropic arm that is unprecedented like that is ..."

"One vision that we have for how to make this really good for humanity, for humans, is to focus on what we call resilience. We thought a lot about safety. How do you make sure that AI is aligned with h..."

"Have linguistics changed since AI considering the way that it works? It's so much based on understanding of linguistics. >> Yes. And because the thing about it is that linguistics to me has always fel..."

"Does AI understand sarcasm, double entendre, things like that? >> Yes, you can test it on chatbt. it does a great job. >> Can it understand poetry? >> I think so. Yeah, I think it does a great job. Wh..."

"But I think that one day we'll we'll get there too. >> I'd like to see it. Me too. >> Yeah. >> The point is we want something to generate something new. And so what's going on is that when these model..."

"Would you say AI is the biggest destructor of the status quo that we've ever seen? >> I think it could be. I think that AI will be in many ways like the printing press that it enables and unleashes cr..."

">> Tell me about your experience at MIT. >> So I started out at Harvard and >> undergraduate >> undergraduate and when I was choosing where to go, I wasn't into programming at the time that I thought ..."

"anyone showed up, they'd have a good experience and have someone to play against >> lobby where >> I made it so that there was like a game lobby just on my website. And so, I just sit there just waiti..."

">> Yeah. The more you play, would you get better at that game? >> Yes. Yes. I got quite good at it and it was interesting actually my I focused a lot on improving the bot. my bot was like very rudimen..."

">> can you remember at all where the idea came from for that game >> well the way that I got excited about AI was by reading Alan Turring's paper on the Turing test. So this is his 1950 paper called c..."

">> And here's the wild thing. That is exactly what we've been doing. This is like Alan Turing in 1950 projecting how we will first build these unsupervised models that learn. They sort of observe the ..."

"I remember after building this game, I showed up at college at Harvard and this is still 2008 and I was very excited to do research with a natural language processing professor. Were you studying math..."

"And I remember looking at the parse trees. I was like, "This is never going to scale. This is not >> what is that? I don't know what that is." >> Parse trees. They were like a old school NLP like natu..."

"It was just so clear to me. I was like, "This is not what Torren was talking about. I'll go do things that are useful." And instead, I actually got into programming languages. So, I was very excited a..."

"for me that was the spirit is I want a machine that can solve problems that I can't that will empower me in ways that I am unable to to reach that will bring me to new heights and not just for me but ..."

"And so this was very much the ethos that I had. And it really wasn't until I was already at Stripe where I was doing a startup and and building things, but paying attention to the community. And I jus..."

"So the idea is that in I think 2006 2008 a lab at Stanford created a competition where they gathered millions of high resolution images from across the web. At this point we would consider a small dat..."

"And the goal was create a machine can create a program that can categorize a new image into one of these thousand buckets. So, can you recognize whether there's a cat or dog in an image? And that peop..."

"The Exactly. because you have to talk about these relationships and it's very hierarchical if you think about the process of you have to see how all these different pieces fit together and then how th..."

"And so a team of researchers who are Jeffrey Hinton, Ilasker, Alex Herci created a neural net that won this competition. And it didn't just slightly win it, it just blew everything else out of the wat..."

"And it's really it's actually very funny the inside story on how that result came to be because Alex Hersvski was a grad student in Jeffington's lab and he was working on very fast convolutional kerne..."

"And so it was just one of these things where just like Alex just kept grinding at the problem and the numbers got better and better. And so you see the way the progress in this field happens is you ne..."

"And so I think those three things together were what unlocked this particular result in this particular moment and they submitted to the competition. Everyone in the computer vision field was like wha..."

">> But there was a time when you were a fraud if you were doing neural nets. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Until the breakthrough. >> That's right. And actually the history here is also very fascinating. So ..."

"These neural net people in 1965 they would say these neural net people have no new ideas. They just want to build bigger computers. And so it makes you realize that history is written by the victors. ..."

"So therefore, the whole thing's dead. And of course the neural people were like but just let us go to not single layer like we know what to do. But it was all like one of these things where the establ..."

"So what happened after the Alexent result that people outside the field of computer vision would still poo it. They would say, well, oh, it works for computer vision, but neural nets have nothing to d..."

"2014, you have sequence to sequence. didn't get the same massive step function you did with Alexet, but you could just see, yeah, you're gonna push that and this is going to be the only thing you need..."

"It sounds like anytime that the fringe groups >> Yes. can come together, something much more interesting can happen. >> Yes. Are you familiar with I think it's Arthur C. Clark's first law. >> No. >> I..."

"Open AAI started in your living room in San Francisco. Describe the living room to me. >> It was a big open space and we had a black wood table that was this big oval shape. Had some couches. I had a ..."

"In the room that first day would have been Sam Alman, Ilia Sutzkvert, Voyeka was there. I think Vicky Chung, Pam Vagata, John Schulman, Andre Carpathy probably would have been there at the time. Some ..."

"So this was the very beginning of 2016. >> Mhm. at this time. >> Not so long ago. >> Not so long ago. >> 10 years ago. >> Yeah. 10 years. 10 years. Time flies. >> Yes. >> That's wild. And time compres..."

"And so one thing that was clear was that it was like there was this early phase where the fruit was just hanging on the ground because you could just take a GPU, take a neural net, you point it at a n..."

"So instead, I ended up working on the project and I would work in a very tight loop with the researcher and I would say here are five ideas. He would say, "These four are bad." And I say, "Great, that..."

"Typically are the researchers engineers as well or no? >> In this field they are much closer to engineers and there are some people who are really at that intersection. For example Yakapachi who's our..."

"And so the thing that I found was that for engineers to add value in this field, you have a pretty high bar because these researchers, they all know how to code. They can build their own things. So yo..."

"So was the first meeting the meeting of Open AI or was it a get together that turned into Open AI? I'd say that the very first moment that was really the get together that set things in motion was a d..."

"I don't think of it as competition but I do think of it as complimentary right that I think that my view on how AI should go and this is very foundational is that I think that AI is something that eve..."

"Exactly. And I think we're not done. >> Describe the personalities and strength and weaknesses of every person in the room. >> Ah, well, I'd say that Sam, I think, is a visionary. And I think that Sam..."

"I read through chapters 1 through eight. Didn't take it that seriously. I was like look I am just destined to succeed. Like it's just going to work. like it happened so far. And I remember I showed up..."

"You basically wrote the book that you wish you could have read. That's exactly right. >> That's great. >> Yes. >> How is coding similar or different to other activities? >> So the way that I think abo..."

"If you were to explain what the coding process feels like to someone who doesn't code, how do you describe what it feels like you're doing? >> So, the most beautiful part of the coding process is when..."

"How has vibe coding changed the process? >> Vibe coding is a very fascinating moment and I think that what is happening right now is software engineering is changing entirely. So, I remember the first..."

"Is there still a reason to code the old way? >> I think that coding by hand in some ways is like handwriting, like penmanship, like calligraphy. That there is an art to it and that there is an underst..."

"Can you see a time when that won't be necessary? You tell the machine what you want, it codes it the way it wants and and you can still do iterations and improve it. But is there a time when the act o..."

"That's really interesting. >> You really feel the power of what is at your fingertips and the fact that you are now empowered to do even more. >> Yeah. >> But there are still mountains that we have no..."

"How different is a poorly built model versus a well-built model in terms of how it functions? In other words, if you can describe something that you want to work a certain way and if it works that way..."

"Is most of what's happening like building blocks being made and then maybe the way they link together is more casual. >> Yes. >> Would that be a way to describe it? >> I think that's a pretty good way..."

"What would you say the biggest technological revolutions you've witnessed over the course of your life each one? >> Well I remember growing up in North Dakota and reading like a Time magazine article ..."

"And then for projects within OpenAI, I think usually it has the same kind of flavor to it where I remember there are moments where I see a demo or I see a result. You see a little initial curve and yo..."

"What is AGI and is it very clearly delineated? I think of AGI as not just a system that can do any intellectual task that humans can do, but that can really be this force multiplier for an individual ..."

"Is chat GPT the primary product of open AI? No, what is the thing that we ultimately are selling is intelligence on demand for your problem. Chat GBT is one instantiation of that and it's massively po..."

"What is agentic AI? I would think of aic AI as a model that you don't just talk to like in chat but that it's hooked up to tools and that at a implementation level it's almost like the model it can ch..."

"Tell me a bit about the mechanics of chat GPT. How does it work? At the core, chat GBT is powered by a language model. And you should think of a language model as a system that takes in some text and ..."

"What is pre-training and what's post-training? I would think of pre-training as a phase where the model observes the world and learns from it. At a technical level, the way that we implement it is wit..."

"So the output of pre-training and usually these runs could be a month they could be multiple months maybe our longest one was somewhere around nine months big team of people in order to keep that thin..."

"So the pre-training is like the Library of Congress, let's say. >> I'd say pre-training is like the Library of Congress, and then post-training is almost taste, giving the machine a sense of which of ..."

"How much of the human hand is involved in the post-training? It's been changing as well. It really used to be that we would have these large campaigns and sometimes we still do, but that that most of ..."

"My takeaway from the Alph Go story was that the computer made a move that no human would have made and that's why it won. >> Yes. >> And if you're teaching the AI how to act more responsibly as a huma..."

"If the AI proved something in physics that negates what's in the current textbooks, is that a safety problem or is that a breakthrough? It's already happened. >> Tell me the story. >> So, there's a ph..."

"I think the most potential in AI is when it does things that humans don't know is the right answer. >> Yes. That's what's exciting. >> It is. >> And if the corporate perspective is to prevent that fro..."

"I think that we will find that we were under ambitious on compute. I think that where we are going and we're seeing the proof points of it is a world where knowledge work is amplified by compute power..."

"I'd say you can almost think of AI as a manufacturing process from electricity to intelligence. and that we use electricity as one input to how we actually do the computation. So electricity is almost..."

"for me I really focus on us I think that what competitors are helpful for is almost as like a pace card just to get a sense of how you're doing sometimes they can point out that oh here's a particular..."

"Since everybody's models are being optimized it seems for the same benchmarks. Does that end up being a limitation on what's being done because everyone's focusing on this small group of tests? >> It ..."

"So two big aspects to what we do. There's research and deployment. In research we are creating new models and that requires both research and engineering to be joined at the hip."

"Tell me your thoughts. >> I love it. So, I think that and I I know I've spent time with Peter. I think he's he's great. He was the developer of OpenClaw. And to me, OpenCaw encompasses two things."