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The happiness and pain of product management | Noam Lovinsky (Grammarly, FB, Thumbtack, YT)
28 segments available
Noam Lovinsky has had a distinguished career in product, leaving an indelible mark at Facebook, YouTube, Thumbtack, and currently as the chief product officer at Grammarly. At Facebook, Noam helped establish the New Product Experimentation team; at Thumbtack, he was chief product officer; and at YouTube, he was one of the early product leaders overseeing the consumer experience. In our conversation, we discuss: • Challenges and lessons from reviving growth at YouTube and Thumbtack • Lessons from building Facebook’s New Product Experimentation team • Insights into Grammarly’s success • Knowing when it’s time to kill your project • Why diversifying your growth channels is critical • The power of visioning and storytelling in shaping product strategy • How to create space for innovation at large companies • The resilience and motivation of Grammarly’s team in Ukraine — Brought to you by: • Whimsical—The iterative product workspace: https://whimsical.com/lenny • Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny • LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business https://www.linkedin.com/podlenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-happiness-and-pain-of-product Where to find Noam Lovinsky: • X: https://twitter.com/noaml • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noaml/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Noam’s background (04:18) Noam’s lack of online presence (08:06) Lessons from YouTube: advocating for what’s best for yourself and the team (14:31) Prioritizing what’s best for the business (19:37) Knowing when it’s time to kill a project (21:47) Lessons from Thumbtack: diversifying growth channels and overcoming challenges (26:24) How Thumbtack turned growth around (31:44) Building Airbnb’s instant booking feature (35:28) Lessons from Thumbtack: team collaboration and product strategy (38:38) Lessons from Facebook: building the New Product Experimentation team (40:43) The importance of starting small and building community density (46:07) Advice for building a startup within a startup (48:52) Having an incentive system (49:34) Lessons from Grammarly: adapting to changing user needs and building for the masses (54:20) The scrappiness and profitability of Grammarly (56:56) The resilience and motivation of the Grammarly team in Ukraine (59:08) General career advice (01:01:02) When to pull back (01:02:58) Closing thoughts (01:03:56) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
Noam Lovinsky's Journey Through Tech Giants
Noam Lovinsky shares his impressive career trajectory, detailing his experiences at YouTube, Thumbtack, and Facebook. He discusses the challenges he faced, including YouTube's financial struggles and the innovative strategies he implemented to drive growth. This segment sets the stage for understanding the depth of Noam's expertise in product management.
"you worked at so many great companies that YouTube when you joined my understanding is YouTube was losing a lot of money there were many times where Google leadership reconsidered the acquisition and ..."
The Importance of Team Advocacy
Noam emphasizes the significance of advocating for what's best for the team and organization, even at the risk of personal job security. He recounts his early days at YouTube, where he suggested reallocating resources away from a project he believed was misaligned with the company's priorities. This lesson highlights the value of honesty and integrity in product management.
"yeah today my guest is Noom levinsky Noom is currently Chief product officer at gramar Le previously he was an early p.m. at YouTube where he spent 5 years leading the Creator product experience and t..."
Navigating Leadership Challenges
In this segment, Noam reflects on his experiences reporting to high-level executives at YouTube, particularly the challenges of adapting to different leadership styles. He discusses how he learned to navigate complex organizational dynamics and the importance of seeking support from peers to enhance productivity and job satisfaction.
"talk about when it makes sense to kill your project at a company when it makes sense to ask to be layered at a company why you should be keeping a nose out for which products matter most at a business..."
Finding Your Authentic Path
Noam shares insights on the importance of authenticity in one's career. He discusses how he prefers to focus on building and collaborating rather than engaging in social media or networking. This segment encourages listeners to pursue what genuinely excites them, reinforcing the idea that success can come from staying true to oneself.
"career a bunch of advice for creating space for Innovation within a large company and so much more Noom is such a gem and I'm really excited to share his wisdom with you if you enjoy this podcast don'..."
Lessons from Diverse Experiences
Noam reflects on the unique lessons learned from his diverse experiences across various tech companies. He discusses the importance of adaptability and how each role has contributed to his growth as a product manager. This segment serves as a reminder of the value of varied experiences in shaping a successful career.
"source of Truth for all of your build requirements whimsicle also has a library of easy to use templates from product leaders like myself including a project proposal one pager and a go to market work..."
Advocating for Team Success
Noam Lovinsky shares a pivotal lesson from his time at YouTube about the importance of advocating for what's best for the team and organization. He emphasizes that in healthy teams, making tough decisions can lead to positive outcomes, and recognizing when to seek support from others is crucial for personal and team growth.
"guy working with these guys who were were awesome and YouTube in general was was and continues to be an incredible team um and so that I think that was like a first like really good lesson that in in ..."
Navigating Leadership Challenges
Lovinsky reflects on his early career challenges while reporting to a high-level CEO at YouTube. He discusses the steep learning curve he faced and how he ultimately sought a more supportive reporting structure to enhance his productivity and happiness, illustrating the importance of aligning roles for better team dynamics.
"that that comes to mind maybe maybe one other I would say like atypical um you know uh career choice that I that I made shortly thereafter is then when I was when I was put in that in that um uh in th..."
The Importance of Team Dynamics
In this segment, Noam discusses the significance of having a supportive team and how trusting relationships can lead to better outcomes. He highlights the value of recognizing when to adjust reporting structures to foster collaboration and improve overall team performance.
"this way and again like very atypical no one has ever come to me in my career and said I would like you to layer me you know in this in this in this other in this other person but you know in that mom..."
Aligning with Company Strategy
Lovinsky explains how understanding the broader company strategy and aligning team efforts towards that goal is essential for product managers. He emphasizes that prioritizing the business's needs can lead to better results, even if it means making tough decisions that may not seem immediately beneficial.
"mean I think having a broader view of the company strategy having an instinct for like what we should be doing and why and how I might prioritize all of these Investments um if I were given the opport..."
Customer-Centric Principles at Thumbtack
Noam shares Thumbtack's guiding principles for prioritizing customer needs over business interests. He discusses the importance of serving both customers and service providers effectively, illustrating how a strong customer experience can ultimately benefit the business and lead to sustainable growth.
"just you have to trust that the team around you is is good enough that you're not going to be pushed off into a corner I think you made a really profound Point here that a lot of people don't get abou..."
Navigating Growth Challenges
In this segment, Lovinsky reflects on the challenges of relying on a single growth channel, particularly SEO, and the risks associated with it. He emphasizes the need for diversification in growth strategies to ensure long-term sustainability and resilience in business.
"first two saying Thumbtack last is like the easy thing to say actually doing it in action I think is is a very different thing but that that first one of like should we you know especially when you're..."
The Stamina to Persist
Noam discusses the importance of stamina and resilience in product management, especially during challenging times. He shares insights on how to recognize when a project is losing momentum and the need for a change in approach to revitalize team motivation and productivity.
"right and so doing things like um raising prices because we think it's good for the business even though it causes liquidity issues in the marketplace might be a little you know a little bit of a loca..."
Turning Around Thumbtack's Growth
Lovinsky recounts his experience at Thumbtack during a period of declining growth. He discusses the strategic decisions made to pivot the company and the lessons learned about the importance of adaptability and recognizing underlying issues when growth slows.
"ambiguity where you you don't know exactly what to build or you don't know exactly you're not getting the signal you need or the feedback you need to be able to hone it in and know that you're that yo..."
Growth Masks Problems
In this segment, Noam emphasizes that rapid growth can obscure underlying issues within a company. He shares his insights on how to identify and address these problems, highlighting the importance of experiencing both growth and decline to develop as a product manager.
"learned uh really early which Lenny you know with your background you probably know as well SEO is a sort of like a live by the sword Die By The Sword you know channel of of growth um and I think that..."
Turning Around Thumbtack's Growth
In this segment, Noam shares insights on how Thumbtack revitalized its growth strategy by diversifying its channels and addressing high friction in the customer experience. He emphasizes the importance of teamwork and returning to first principles to create a more effective growth model, ultimately leading to a turnaround in Thumbtack's performance.
"otherwise it's just really challenging to identify where the true issues are and I think as a PM you know if you've only ever worked on things that grow and you've never like felt the other side of th..."
Rebuilding the Customer Experience
Noam explains the high friction customer experience at Thumbtack and how it hindered growth. He discusses the need to streamline the process for customers seeking services and the importance of instant quotes from service providers, drawing parallels to successful models in other marketplaces like Airbnb.
"better um results and um you know uh I think that one of the things that we were doing incorrectly at thumac is Thumbtack is actually a Marketplace that is actually made up of thousands of marketplace..."
Lessons from Instant Booking
Noam reflects on the transformation of booking processes at Airbnb and Thumbtack, emphasizing the challenges of shifting to an instant experience. He discusses the complexities involved in changing customer expectations and behaviors, and how these lessons are crucial for product managers in evolving their strategies.
"put up money to even show up to customers in the first place or what the customers want to see is the supply like tell me tell me who I can hire also like a lot of friction uh on on that side and and ..."
Diversifying Growth Channels
In this segment, Noam highlights the importance of not relying on a single growth channel, using Thumbtack's experience with SEO as a cautionary tale. He stresses the need for businesses to explore multiple avenues for growth proactively to avoid potential pitfalls and ensure long-term sustainability.
"Journey but looking back I don't think airb would have made it if not for that and unlike thumb Tech we did it but before things were starting to fall apart like we're like we and actually I was going..."
Collaboration in Product Strategy
Noam discusses the significance of collaboration among leadership teams in product strategy, especially during challenging times. He emphasizes that every team member should contribute to product discussions, fostering a culture of collective responsibility to navigate difficulties and drive growth.
"like you said when when one of those might dry up imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost-efficient way if you're a B2B business..."
Building a Startup Within Facebook
Noam shares his experience with the New Product Experimentation team at Facebook, which aimed to incubate startups internally rather than acquiring them. He reflects on the challenges and outcomes of this initiative, arguing that success shouldn't solely be measured by finding the next big product like Instagram. Instead, he highlights the importance of learning and adapting within the organization, even if the outcomes are not groundbreaking.
"build a relationship with the leadership team before things start to Goat r that yes C certainly that but I think it's also incumbent for like you know people in our roles and you know in engineering ..."
Creating Space for Innovation
In this segment, Noam discusses the challenges of fostering innovation in large organizations like Facebook. He explains the necessity of starting small and focusing on community density to build successful products. Noam emphasizes the importance of creating an environment where product managers and engineers can directly engage with customers, which is often hindered by organizational constraints.
"for Facebook correct me if I'm wrong I'm curious what that experience was like what you took away from it how it when what you think about when you look back at that part of your journey I was one of ..."
Lessons from the New Product Team
Noam reflects on the broader implications of the New Product Experimentation team at Facebook, noting that while it didn't produce the next Instagram, it provided valuable insights and experiences that benefited the organization. He discusses how the team's work illuminated existing challenges within the company and served as a recruiting tool for attracting talent interested in innovative projects.
"organization like that and so creating that space for NP to be able to do that to be able to help remind the organization what are the mechanism we need to be able to build and learn that way was very..."
Incentive Systems for Internal Startups
Noam shares key advice for creating effective internal startups within large companies. He stresses the importance of designing appropriate incentive systems that align with the unique goals of innovation teams. This segment highlights the need for flexibility in performance management and the significance of fostering an entrepreneurial mindset among team members to drive successful outcomes.
"the the organization and even if you you set that kind of like that that light on the hill to be like go find the next Instagram many of the things that you would do along the way to like find the nex..."
Grammarly's Unique Position in the Market
Lovinsky shares insights into Grammarly's success as a profitable subscription business. He explains how Grammarly has navigated competition from giants like Google and Microsoft by focusing on user experience and providing value without requiring extensive configuration. He discusses the company's intentional growth strategy and how it has positioned itself at the forefront of AI-assisted communication tools.
"internally as well awesome okay let's move to the final bucket grammarly which is where you're at now and the way I'm thinking about it is this kind of like a one to rocket ship or I don't know 10 it'..."
The Scrappy Culture of Grammarly
In this segment, Lovinsky reflects on Grammarly's scrappy beginnings and its culture of profitability from day one. He discusses how the company's bootstrap mentality has shaped its approach to growth and innovation. Lovinsky highlights the importance of focusing on revenue generation and the impact of a strong team culture, especially in challenging circumstances, such as the ongoing situation in Ukraine.
"business um kind of on this on this use case that people had kind of written off now you know come the Advent of llms and it's no longer a use case that people are are writing off and sort of the the ..."
Resilience of the Grammarly Team in Ukraine
Lovinsky praises the resilience and dedication of Grammarly's team in Ukraine, who continue to deliver impactful work despite the ongoing conflict. He emphasizes the pride the team feels in their contributions to the company and how their experiences motivate them to strive for success. This segment highlights the unique challenges faced by the team and the broader significance of Grammarly's mission for the Ukrainian community.
"now provide you know a diff very different type of assistance and um you know value that we can because of where the technology has moved the other thing I've heard a lot about grammarly and Yuri was ..."
Career Advice: Embrace Growth Through Pain
Lovinsky shares valuable career advice, encouraging individuals to seek out opportunities that promote growth and learning, even if they come with discomfort. He emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with the right people and being open to challenging situations that foster personal and professional development. This segment serves as a motivational reminder that growth often requires stepping outside of one's comfort zone.
"business that's amazing that there's still team members and maybe I think you said Engineers from the beginning 12 years later I think that says a lot about the business and before we started recordin..."
Navigating Career Challenges
In this concluding segment, Lovinsky discusses the balance between pursuing growth and recognizing when a situation may be too challenging. He advises listeners to identify their strengths and ensure they have a solid foundation to lean on while navigating new challenges. This segment encapsulates the essence of resilience and adaptability in one's career journey.
"curious if there's something you have found about when that's when the pain is too much when that you shouldn't pursue that a lot of people get into these places where they're just their mental health..."