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The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart)

The full-stack PM | Anuj Rathi (Swiggy, Jupiter Money, Flipkart)

43 segments available

Anuj Rathi is the Chief Product and Marketing Officer at Jupiter Money, where he leads product management, marketing, design, growth, and analytics. Before Jupiter Money, Anuj served as the Senior Vice President of Revenue and Growth at Swiggy, VP of Product at SnapDeal, a senior PM at Walmart Labs, and the first-ever PM at Flipkart. He’s also one of the most beloved and respected product leaders in India. In this episode, we discuss: • How product management is different in India • How to rethink your approach to new users • How Anuj operationalizes the “working backwards” framework • Why Anuj thinks PMs should be more full-stack than they are • How to use Anuj’s “4BB” framework to get better at product strategy and prioritization • Advice on developing innovative roadmap ideas • The three essential skills of a successful PM • Three reasons why leadership fails• Why OKRs don’t work in marketplaces — Brought to you by Sanity—The most customizable content layer to power your growth engine: https://www.sanity.io/lenny | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies: https://www.wix.com/studio?utm_source=Lennyspodcast&utm_medium=Podcastad&utm_campaign=SL Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-full-stack-pm-anuj-rathi-swiggy Where to find Anuj Rathi: • X: https://twitter.com/anujrathi • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anujrathi1 Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Anuj’s background (04:28) How product differs in India (08:34) When modern product thinking started to gain traction in India (14:01) How Anuj thinks about new-user experiences (15:07) Scott Belsky’s “lazy, vain, and selfish” framework (19:59) Why PMs must understand category consumers (22:30) Anuj’s philosophy on the PM job (23:59) How Anuj applies the working-backwards framework (28:36) The importance of FAQs (30:10) The full-stack PM mindset (33:06) Anuj’s “show don’t tell” framework (36:19) How to use the show-don’t-tell framework (39:14) The impact of using this framework (41:27) Anuj’s “4BB framework” for product strategy (48:59) Contrarian corner (50:49) Anuj’s “framework of 3” for great PMs (52:34) How to develop grit and influence (54:00) Three reasons why leaders fail  (56:21) AI corner (57:51) Lessons from building a successful marketplace (1:02:19) How to balance and maintain stability on all sides of a marketplace (1:07:48) Lightning round Referenced: • MakeMyTrip: https://www.makemytrip.com/ • Shaadi.com: https://www.shaadi.com/ • Bharat Matrimony: https://www.bharatmatrimony.com/ • Flipkart: https://www.flipkart.com/ • Ola: https://www.olacabs.com/mobile • Swiggy: https://www.swiggy.com/ • Jio: https://www.jio.com/ • UPI: http://cashlessindia.gov.in/upi.html • The First 15 Seconds, by Scott Belsky: https://medium.com/positiveslope/the-first-15-seconds-9590d7dabc • Jupiter Money: https://jupiter.money/ • How to get better at influence: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-get-better-at-influence • Working Backwards: https://www.workingbackwards.com/ • Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484 • In Search of Greatness on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Search-Greatness-Wayne-Gretzky/dp/B07P5X99P5 • Team Topologies: Organizing Business and Technology Teams for Fast Flow: https://www.amazon.com/Team-Topologies-Organizing-Business-Technology/dp/1942788819 • Conway’s Law: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/teamwork/what-is-conways-law-acmi • Taobao: https://world.taobao.com/ • Alibaba: https://offer.alibaba.com/ • Working Backwards: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-PB/dp/1529033845 • How Brands Grow: What Marketers Don’t Know: https://www.amazon.com/How-Brands-Grow-What-Marketers/dp/0195573560 • The Luxury Strategy: Break the Rules of Marketing to Build Luxury Brands: https://www.amazon.com/Luxury-Strategy-Break-Marketing-Brands/dp/0749464917 • The Office on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/stream-tv/the-office • Rise: https://www.risescience.com/ Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Segments Timeline

1
0:00 - 0:20
0:20 duration89 words

The Three Reasons Leadership Fails

Anuj Rathi outlines the three core reasons why things may not go as planned in leadership: capability issues, motivation misalignments, and inadequate setups. He emphasizes the importance of understanding these factors to effectively lead teams and achieve desired outcomes.

"there are only three reasons why things do not happen the way you want them to happen as a leader and you can look at a person and you would say either that person can't do which is a capability issue..."

2
0:20 - 1:58
1:37 duration311 words

Anuj Rathi: A Respected Product Leader

In this segment, Lenny introduces Anuj Rathi, highlighting his extensive experience in product management across notable companies like Flipkart and Swiggy. Anuj's journey reflects the evolution of product management in India, making him a sought-after voice in the industry.

"as a leader do you have the right people in terms of capability and if not is the right answer for us to coach them or to like really put them or Mentor them and so on or move them to some other place..."

3
1:58 - 3:02
1:04 duration190 words

Product Management's Evolution in India

Anuj discusses how product management in India has evolved since 2010, noting the lack of products tailored for Indian consumers before this period. He reflects on the challenges faced by early product managers and the gradual development of a more robust product management culture.

"India look for more amazing India based product leaders to come with that I bring you Anu rati after a short word from our sponsors this episode is brought to you by sanity your website is the heart o..."

4
3:02 - 4:30
1:28 duration235 words

The Journey of Product Management in India

Anuj elaborates on the historical context of product management in India, comparing it to the established practices in the US and other regions. He emphasizes the unique challenges faced by Indian product managers and the need for a tailored approach to product development.

"your ideas to Market without developer friction sanity makes life better for your whole team it's fast for developers to build with intuitive for Content managers and it integrates seamlessly with the..."

5
4:30 - 5:39
1:08 duration238 words

The Impact of Modern Consumer Internet

Anuj explains how the rise of modern consumer internet in India, particularly through travel and e-commerce, has shaped product management. He highlights key players like Flipkart and Ola that have contributed to this transformation.

"anudj thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thank you so much Lenny thank you for having me it's my pleasure I haven't told you this but when I put a call out on Twitter and Link..."

6
5:39 - 6:57
1:18 duration276 words

Understanding India's Diverse Market

In this segment, Anuj discusses the complexities of the Indian market, including its vast population and linguistic diversity. He emphasizes the importance of understanding local consumer behavior and preferences when developing products.

"friends comparing product management versus say in us or even in Europe versus even in China southeast Asia Etc I think India has had like a very interesting journey of products in general and hence p..."

7
6:57 - 8:01
1:04 duration209 words

The Role of Digital Infrastructure

Anuj highlights the significance of digital infrastructure in India, particularly the impact of initiatives like UPI and the India Stack. He explains how these developments have enabled a broader population to access digital services and products.

"come in and we are way closer to how good product management should be done in India we still have a little bit way to go compared to to say us and I also think of it it it along like for example in u..."

8
8:01 - 9:12
1:11 duration241 words

Challenges in E-commerce and Consumer Engagement

Anuj discusses the challenges faced by e-commerce businesses in India, particularly in identifying and engaging paying customers. He emphasizes the need for innovative strategies to attract and retain users in a competitive market.

"predictable output to come and that mentality also kind of moved on to what I expect from product managers or product building Journeys and so on so I think over a period of time a lot of those Cycles..."

9
9:12 - 10:24
1:11 duration253 words

The Future of Product Management in India

Anuj shares his insights on the future of product management in India, highlighting the ongoing evolution of consumer expectations and the need for product managers to adapt to these changes. He expresses optimism about the growth of the industry.

"matrimony side which is shadi.com and bhat matrimony.com and so on but like what do you think about Tinder like India is famous for arranged marriages so like a product that would that would really un..."

10
12:29 - 14:00
1:31 duration318 words

Understanding India's Diverse Market

Anuj Rathi discusses the unique challenges of product management in India, emphasizing the country's linguistic and cultural diversity. He explains how traditional product frameworks often fail to account for the varied consumer base, highlighting the need for a broader understanding of who the products are being built for. Rathi also touches on the economic factors influencing consumer behavior, particularly the low per capita income and the importance of identifying the right paying customers.

"number of languages spoken here even the official languages is is so high uh and they say there's this code in India like every 15 miles the language will change and the people and their culture will ..."

11
14:01 - 15:06
1:05 duration238 words

Rethinking New User Experiences

In this segment, Anuj Rathi shares insights on how product managers often overlook the perspective of new users. He introduces Scott Belsky's framework describing modern consumers as 'lazy, vain, and selfish,' urging PMs to empathize with users who may not be as invested in the product. Rathi emphasizes the importance of crafting onboarding experiences that resonate with these users, rather than focusing solely on product features.

"going but I want to talk product I've collected a bunch of questions from people that know you or people that have worked with you all about a bunch of different stuff so I'm just going to kind of go ..."

12
15:07 - 16:58
1:51 duration362 words

The Lazy, Vain, and Selfish Consumer

Anuj Rathi elaborates on Scott Belsky's framework, explaining how understanding consumers as lazy, vain, and selfish can transform product management strategies. He discusses the necessity of capturing user attention quickly and effectively, as well as the challenge of changing established consumer habits. Rathi stresses that product managers must design experiences that clearly communicate value to users who may be indifferent to the product.

"interesting Insight that I heard from Scott bsky um from Adobe and then now he's doing like very interesting stuff and that kind of stayed with me and which was you had to think about users or modern ..."

13
16:59 - 18:49
1:50 duration392 words

Connecting Marketing and Onboarding

Rathi shares practical examples of how he applied the lazy, vain, and selfish framework in his work at Swiggy. He emphasizes the importance of aligning marketing messages with onboarding experiences to create a seamless user journey. By understanding the triggers that lead users to download the app, Rathi illustrates how a cohesive approach can significantly enhance user engagement and retention.

"customer it's extremely hard it's very hard but it's totally worth it if you put that lens on and is there an example of you're using this framework at on a product you worked on where you're just lik..."

14
18:50 - 20:01
1:11 duration244 words

Empathy in Product Management

In this segment, Anuj Rathi discusses the critical role of empathy in product management, particularly when dealing with users who only engage with one aspect of a multi-service app. He highlights the importance of understanding user behavior and preferences to effectively convert them into loyal customers across different product offerings. Rathi advocates for a behavioral science approach to enhance user experience and drive product adoption.

"I'm talking about like just a very simple example and everybody should be doing it that is true even for uh when you have an have a part particular app which has multiple products and many product lin..."

15
20:02 - 21:12
1:10 duration217 words

Influencing User Behavior

Anuj Rathi emphasizes that product managers are essentially in the business of influencing user behavior. He discusses the need for PMs to adopt a mindset similar to marketers, focusing on how to effectively communicate value propositions to attract and retain users. Rathi argues that understanding consumer psychology is crucial for successful product management and user engagement.

"on not people currently using your product but this idea of maybe the marginal user or the adjacent user like the next state of users is who you should be thinking about when you're trying to optimize..."

16
21:13 - 22:00
0:47 duration156 words

The Importance of User-Centric Design

Rathi critiques the common practice of product managers assuming users will naturally engage with their products without proper guidance. He stresses the need for user-centric design that considers the user's journey from the moment they encounter the product. By recognizing that users have pre-allocated time and attention, Rathi underscores the importance of making a compelling case for why they should choose a particular app.

"what is the hook that will at least get them to try my my app or or any of those things right so if they understand it as well as a marketer and then understand over a period of time what is the right..."

17
22:01 - 23:44
1:43 duration373 words

The Role of Influence in Product Management

In this segment, Anuj Rathi discusses the multifaceted role of influence in product management. He explains that PMs must not only influence users but also collaborate effectively with engineers and leadership teams. Rathi highlights the importance of being a 'full-stack influencer,' capable of navigating various internal dynamics to ensure successful product outcomes.

"actually get this user here and why will they use it but this user is lazy rain and selfish that phrase reminds me of something I always think about Mark andreon had this great quote that your user ti..."

18
23:45 - 24:49
1:04 duration226 words

Implementing the Working Backwards Framework

Anuj Rathi shares insights on how to effectively implement the 'working backwards' framework in product management. He explains that this approach, popularized by Amazon, involves starting with the end goal in mind and working backwards to ensure all aspects of product development align with customer needs. Rathi discusses the importance of creating a comprehensive plan that includes marketing strategies and user feedback to drive successful product launches.

"point that you're also trying to influence your user that's interesting just more reason to get really good at influence so I actually have a newsletter about how to get better influence based on frot..."

19
24:45 - 27:04
2:19 duration521 words

Mastering the Working Backwards Framework

Anuj Rathi explains the 'working backwards' framework, emphasizing its importance in product management. He discusses how this approach helps in defining customer value propositions, planning go-to-market strategies, and ensuring product success. Rathi highlights the significance of creating a press release as a tool for aligning teams and setting clear goals, illustrating how this method can facilitate negotiations and foster collaboration across departments.

"customer value proposition will our customers love love it and will they pay for it and is it noteworthy and is it something that we should even be working while that is one of the most important thin..."

20
27:04 - 30:09
3:04 duration613 words

The Power of Three in Product Management

In this segment, Anuj Rathi shares his belief in the 'power of three' when developing product strategies. He encourages teams to create three alternative press releases for new initiatives, allowing for diverse perspectives and thorough consideration of ideas. This method not only aids in decision-making but also ensures that all stakeholder inputs are valued and integrated into the final product roadmap.

"live is the real value the other part that I found interesting here is that I really truly believe in the power of three so I I I actually ask my teams to write three PR releases alternative and Diver..."

21
30:09 - 33:34
3:25 duration723 words

Show, Don't Tell: Enhancing User Experience

Anuj Rathi introduces the 'show, don't tell' concept, which focuses on visualizing the user journey in product development. He emphasizes the importance of detailing every aspect of the user experience, from initial engagement to post-purchase interactions. By creating a comprehensive narrative around user scenarios, product managers can better understand user needs and design products that truly resonate with their audience.

"marketplace one thread I'm pulling out a few of your stories so far is you often come back to this like full stack approach to many models so you talked about how PM is like an influencer but also the..."

22
33:34 - 38:07
4:32 duration919 words

Strategic Alignment Through Visual Storytelling

Rathi discusses the significance of visual storytelling in aligning product strategies with organizational goals. He advocates for creating a 'strategy on a page' that encapsulates market insights, user acquisition strategies, and growth loops. This approach not only clarifies the product vision for stakeholders but also facilitates discussions around strategic choices, ensuring that all teams are on the same page regarding the product's direction.

"is like a written documentation of what we're trying to achieve show don't tell is essentially a way in which the product manager starts ideating with the entire experience and they actually create al..."

23
38:11 - 39:15
1:04 duration183 words

The Impact of Visual Strategy Boards

Rathi explains the significant impact of using visual strategy boards in product management. He highlights how these boards enhance alignment among CXOs and teams, clarifying the user journey and fostering collaboration across departments. This method not only aids in strategic decision-making but also helps in understanding the broader picture of user engagement.

"Wix Studio your agency has just landed a dream client and you already have big ideas for the website but you have the tools to bring your ambitious Vision to life let me tell you about Wix Studio the ..."

24
39:15 - 40:38
1:23 duration288 words

Choosing Strategic Directions

In this segment, Anuj Rathi elaborates on the process of choosing strategic directions within product management. He discusses the importance of presenting multiple strategic options and the need for clarity in prioritization. Rathi emphasizes that these discussions should involve leadership to ensure alignment and commitment to the chosen strategy.

"from implementing something like this or is there an example of something that came out of this that was a big unlock and you know again it's probably a lot of work for someone to put together a whole..."

25
40:38 - 42:58
2:20 duration499 words

Introducing the 4BB Framework for Product Strategy

Anuj introduces the 4BB framework, which categorizes product management priorities into four buckets: Brilliant Basics, Bread and Butter, Big Bets, and Breaking Bad. He explains how this framework helps product managers prioritize their focus areas and align with leadership on strategic investments, ensuring a balanced approach to product development.

"one but three of them and why I'm choosing one alternative versus the other and sometimes these strategic discussions they can get go in like all sorts of different ways and maybe you'll talk about on..."

26
42:58 - 45:00
2:01 duration396 words

Understanding Brilliant Basics and Bread and Butter

Rathi dives deeper into the first two buckets of the 4BB framework: Brilliant Basics and Bread and Butter. He explains that Brilliant Basics refer to essential tech debt that must be addressed, while Bread and Butter focuses on optimizing existing products. This segment highlights the importance of maintaining product hygiene while also pushing for enhancements.

"what really happens is it gets down to product managers eventually prioritizing between these four so I don't think it's a tactical prioritization product manager call it really is a product strategy ..."

27
45:00 - 46:47
1:47 duration351 words

Strategic Prioritization in Product Management

In this segment, Anuj discusses the strategic prioritization challenges faced by product managers. He emphasizes the need for clear communication with leadership regarding focus areas and the trade-offs involved in prioritizing different strategic initiatives. Rathi stresses that these decisions should be framed as strategic conversations rather than mere tactical calls.

"invest a lot less on my brilliant Basics and we should as a company focus a lot on this breaking back because that is existential but then we should not look back and say why would Tech Systems a litt..."

28
46:47 - 48:44
1:57 duration394 words

The Importance of Exploring Options

Anuj Rathi shares his perspective on the importance of exploring multiple strategic options before committing to one. He advocates for product managers to present a recommended strategy along with alternatives, ensuring a comprehensive understanding of the market and company dynamics. This approach fosters informed decision-making and aligns the team towards a common goal.

"clearer in terms of what will they do and also they would know that if they are they have been signed up for a big bet then they will need to contribute to the prfq they will need to contribute to the..."

29
48:44 - 50:03
1:19 duration263 words

Contrarian Views on Product Management

Rathi expresses his contrarian views on product management, emphasizing the need for excellence over speed. He argues that many experiments should be critically evaluated before execution to avoid wasting resources. This segment challenges conventional wisdom and encourages a more thoughtful approach to product development.

"is going to Champion this and that's where the other uh you know leadership element of Amazon comes in which is disagree and commit so but once we have aligned on this one we'll all commit to to launc..."

30
50:03 - 51:41
1:37 duration303 words

Essential Skills for Successful Product Managers

In this segment, Anuj outlines three essential skills for successful product managers: sharp problem identification and solving, drive or grit, and the ability to influence. He discusses how these skills contribute to effective product management and the importance of self-awareness in determining one's fit for the role.

"Excellence there's another contrarian opinion uh which is I think most most product managers and again I'm probably talking a little bit of of of the kind of you know people that I've worked with and ..."

31
51:01 - 52:34
1:32 duration320 words

Three Essential Skills for PMs

In this segment, Anuj Rathi introduces his framework of three essential skills for successful product managers: sharp problem identification and solving, drive or grit, and the ability to influence. He emphasizes that while not everyone is born with these skills, a genuine desire to improve and develop them is crucial for success in product management.

"framework of three I think the first thing is is essentially raw Sharps and that can manifest itself into problem identification and problem solving that's one and also high and all of that I that is ..."

32
52:34 - 54:01
1:27 duration309 words

Understanding Leadership Challenges

Rathi outlines three reasons why leadership may fail in product management: capability issues, motivation or alignment issues, and setup issues. He stresses the importance of leaders recognizing these factors to effectively address challenges within their teams and ensure successful outcomes.

"little more time here so smart you're probably not going to be able to do a lot about in terms of grit or influence is there anything you can share about what you've seen most helps people develop at ..."

33
54:01 - 55:02
1:01 duration211 words

The Setup for Success

Anuj Rathi discusses the significance of proper setup in product management, explaining that many issues arise from inadequate structures and processes. He highlights the need for leaders to establish clear objectives and frameworks to facilitate success, referencing the importance of understanding team dynamics and organizational design.

"three reasons again why things do not happen the way you want them to happen as a leader U and you can look at a person and you would say that either that person can't do which is a capability issue o..."

34
55:02 - 56:05
1:02 duration214 words

AI and Human Intelligence in Product Management

In this segment, Rathi emphasizes the balance between artificial intelligence and human intelligence in product development. He argues that while AI offers exciting possibilities, it must be integrated with human insights and user experience to achieve optimal results. This highlights the importance of a holistic approach in leveraging technology.

"there why won't they do and there are different answers for that but if it's a setup issue and at least I realized that apart from what product managers can do almost 70 80% of problems why things don..."

35
56:05 - 57:51
1:45 duration334 words

Building Successful Marketplaces

Anuj Rathi shares insights on the complexities of building successful marketplaces, emphasizing that they require a nuanced understanding of multiple user needs. He discusses the challenges of aligning objectives across different stakeholders, such as consumers, delivery partners, and service providers, and the importance of strategic decision-making in this context.

"one I think what's cool about these are it they're essentially ways to measure performance maybe of a product manager like performance review it's like can did you have the skills to do this did you h..."

36
57:51 - 1:00:14
2:23 duration458 words

Navigating Marketplace Dynamics

Rathi explains the unique challenges faced in marketplace management, particularly the conflicts that arise between different user groups. He discusses the limitations of traditional OKR frameworks in this context and advocates for a more integrated approach to decision-making that considers the interdependencies of various stakeholders.

"some of the most successful marketplaces in India and in the world I'm curious just what may be a lesson or two about building a successful Marketplace one thing that that I would I would definitely w..."

37
1:00:14 - 1:04:11
3:56 duration789 words

Consumer-Centric Marketplace Strategies

In this final segment, Anuj Rathi elaborates on the importance of a consumer-centric approach in marketplace strategies. He contrasts different marketplace philosophies, emphasizing the need to prioritize the end consumer while also considering the needs of sellers and delivery partners. This segment encapsulates the essence of balancing stakeholder interests in product management.

"to you know choose strategically which direction we have to go the other thing is um managing multiple empathies together that's not not straightforward so again swiggy being like a realtime hyperloca..."

38
1:04:01 - 1:05:02
1:00 duration211 words

Imagining an Amazing Future

In this segment, Anuj shares his approach to product management by creatively imagining a successful future and working backwards from that vision. He emphasizes the importance of being proactive and paranoid about potential challenges, stating that 'only the paranoids survive.'

"delivers to the end consumer and when you're thinking about you know restaurants or delivery partners and we work with them because we both are when you're talking with the with the delivery partner s..."

39
1:05:02 - 1:06:19
1:17 duration260 words

Book Recommendations for Product Managers

Anuj shares his top book recommendations that have influenced his thinking as a product manager. He highlights 'Working Backwards' and 'How Brands Grow' as essential reads, along with 'The Luxury Strategy,' which delves into the psychology behind consumer behavior and aspirational products.

"with we reached our very exciting lightning round I've got six questions for you are you ready yeah what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people one book is working backwar..."

40
1:06:19 - 1:07:32
1:12 duration243 words

Interview Insights for Product Managers

Anuj discusses his favorite interview question for product manager candidates, focusing on the balance between speed and excellence in product development. He explains how their answers reveal their understanding of market dynamics and risk assessment.

"seasons do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're maning product manager specific which are the products where you decide speed is more important versus whi..."

41
1:07:32 - 1:08:49
1:16 duration245 words

The Importance of Market Understanding

In this segment, Anuj emphasizes the need for product managers to have a deep understanding of the market and competition. He discusses how this knowledge informs decisions about product speed versus excellence and the importance of being a full-stack PM.

"selfish user and maybe that's not the answer towards U speed versus Excellence versus for example there's some product which are like there's a very clear competitive differentiation that we can find ..."

42
1:08:49 - 1:10:02
1:12 duration252 words

The Secret Soirée: Building Connections

Anuj shares insights about the 'Secret Soirée' event he hosts, aimed at bringing together interesting people to discuss entrepreneurship and product management. He explains the event's evolution and its focus on fostering connections without a profit motive.

"is actionable but I like it okay okay we'll see do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to like to share with people kind of think about in either work or life would call it a life ..."

43
1:10:02 - 1:12:04
2:02 duration385 words

Closing Thoughts and Online Presence

As the conversation wraps up, Anuj provides his online presence details, encouraging listeners to connect with him on Twitter and LinkedIn. He reflects on the diverse topics discussed throughout the episode, reinforcing the value of continuous learning and networking.

"because you post about it but I'm curious just what is that all about and uh what got you to do these sorts of events so we just started like me and uh an ex of M shiwangi uh so we we essentially want..."