"a crazy thing in the kidnap business we used to get asked by FBI leadership when is this going to be over and the answer would be when the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they can now dis..."

"what is it like negotiating for a hostage with a kidnapper what is the toughest part of that process the toughest part is if it looks bad from the beginning and you gotta engage in a process anyway wh..."

"shape there if they've made a demand that you just even if you wanted to do you couldn't do so then what makes that very difficult is in kidnappings especially you're working with family members you'r..."

"slim and there were a number of people that were killed in that time frame before the tide finally got turned and it was it was hard dealing with the families at the time can you negotiate in public v..."

"it's like Beauty Cindy had a beholder so that was the first lesson on any hostage negotiation really any negotiation like it doesn't matter what it is to you matters what it is to the other side one o..."

"ransom if they're if there's an actual Ransom demand it's an actual demand is it's a mercenary's business they're gonna take what they could get and they tend to be really good at figuring out how muc..."

"to be what can they get a crazy thing in the kidnap business we used to get asked by FBI leadership when is this going to be over NES would be when the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything the..."

"their minds you make up your mind based on what you care about period that makes reason emotion based what do you care about you start with what you care about you see some guy swimming out in off the..."

"sharing necessarily the same thing so then when I was with the FBI and I first started collaborating with Harvard Bob manukan wrote a book Beyond winning second chapters the tension between empathy an..."

"gas station and I thought all right so if you're in charge and the way you feed your people is via an industry that the entire world is trying to quit the whole world is trying to get out of fossil fu..."

"to be tried in military tribunals that's a very bad idea it was always bad the FBI was always against it I'm getting ready we have Muslims testifying in open court against the legitimate Muslim cleric..."

"now I'm not sure how Sam would define it but common vernacular is its sympathy and its compassion and that's when it becomes useless and there is a gray area maybe you can comment on it is sometimes a..."

"disingenuous so I would rather be honest my you know my currency is integrity and at some point in time if you go like you know where I'm coming from my answer is going to be like look I can agree on ..."

"we human beings we're on the same Planet same planet right several years ago and his name is evidently been mud now um but he was very nice to me a lawyer here in town named Tom Girardi and no shortag..."

"I'm not gonna lie to you which gets back before that I lied to you about whether or not I'm on your side you know right now not at the moment we're on opposite size defense that's not going to stop us..."

"written for lawyers yeah sequencing issue so timing is everything so you emphasize the importance of in terms of sequencing and priority uh of listening of truly listening to the other person I'm sorr..."

"it's it's proactive and then one of the reasons you know we name the book tactical empathy um name the name of the book never split the difference but we're talking about tactical empathy uh calibrate..."

"calling out ahead of time so like acknowledging that this is the this is go ahead of time that this is going to hurt the experiments that I've seen um have been when the negativity was inflicted and t..."

"and come back to the elephant right all right so I I'd make a tiny adjustment on the negotiation definition sure because you said I think um seeking closure um you use two words enclosure was one of t..."

"the challenge yeah somewhere we stopped being eaten by saber-toothed tigers and started building bridges and buildings and computers and companies and we started to experience we got enough data back ..."

"depends upon your definition of negotiation if it's just communication we negotiate with them all the time number one number two like every president has made some bone-headed deal with the bad guys l..."

"there's some technical aspects of that negotiation what do you think is the value just the link on it of meeting in person for the negotiation I think it's a great idea can I just just follow that tan..."

"things out by getting these guys together in person so how long does it take who's hosting it but it's a good idea but the skill of uh achieving that thing that you talk about a lot which is empathy a..."

"powerful is yeah and and again I know I picked the vast majority of this up on on Andrews um podcast but it picked it up in other places because early on when we were putting a book together a tall Ro..."

"negotiation of course there's already with uh leaders and great negotiators there's a walls built up defense mechanisms against that right there's you're resisting you're resisting this basic chemistr..."

"the room like as you know man-to-man or man to woman you have to like meet like in like in a saloon just the two of you and talk there's some intimacy and power to that to achieve the the if you're al..."

"sorry yeah yeah yeah you only see a small portion usually that's usually where I go but uh anyway I'm glad we both have ridiculous I appreciate it but what makes this different in person I I actually ..."

"again just because we can't measure it doesn't mean it's not there yeah I would love to figure out what that is uh folks that are working on virtual reality are trying to figure out that what that is ..."

"difference between hearing and speaking the same words are vastly different and what I'm looking for is what I'm the responses I'm getting out of you because if you if you can't first that's right esp..."

"what it means because Donald Trump's been addressing an audience you know he's he's in a debate with Hillary or he's given a speech someplace and when the people that are devoted to him when they beli..."

"nobody in the Republican party is going to like him it's Middle America you know it's blue collar you know it's regular common folks Factory workers then I gotta like Trump because he's from New York ..."

"if you look at his negotiation track record all right so I started following Donald Trump in the 80s when I was in New York I'm a last century guy he's the last century guy we've got mutual acquaintan..."

"from the very beginning and adjust accordingly and it's the same way in in business and personal life I'm talking to the head of a a marketing company I have tremendous respect for I admire that what ..."

"but you have to uh use that world view to be willing to actually walk away here it could be walking away from a lot of money it could be walking away from something that's gonna hurt people because if..."

"yeah and and uh New York is he a New Yorker I think he was the New York I like Jersey or something yeah yeah and um he did a movie a long time ago called back to school he went back to school he's an ..."

"work our way back from that and then all right so we got a mutual point in the future the israeli-palestinian negotiations also uh for me interesting because you mentioned Clubhouse about almost two y..."

"a friend of mine Nicole Benham is um hosting rooms on clubhouse and she says you got to come on the vitriol is killing me these are all turned into screaming matches nobody's talking to anybody I said..."

"conversations that do not devolve into screaming matches with vitriol talking about how you're dedicated to the destruction of the other side just first see if you can outline where they're coming fro..."

"beneficial to the person who's trying to do it which was really the point that we were trying to make it's a really interesting exercise I mean that that by way of advice so if it works at Clubhouse f..."

"and they'd be like yeah that's where they're coming from so articulating you know deeply what the other side feels is transformative for both people involved in a process what's the toughest negotiati..."

"and I tailor my Approach which is what empathy is to what you think how you see things so I can be the biggest goofball ever from if you live in the south yeah maybe I'm a New Yorker or I'm somebody f..."

"suddenly you're listening what about the three voices you talk about the different voices you can use in that communication right The assertive's Voice direct and honest I'm a natural born assertive N..."

"you're an analyst and I can tell you're assertive yeah what's the analyst voice well an analyst is close the smarter more thoughtful no as a matter of fact look you ever do a decision tree yeah see yo..."

"are all New Yorkers like this is this someone something in the water no that's a crazy thing I mean there's an affect that a city can have yeah and um you know New York's Northeast not just New York b..."

"I hope this works out and they're very relationship they on the surface they're very relationship oriented they tend to appear to be very positive and they are but it's really built around hope and th..."

"they're really happy with that but uh has how has assertiveness the assertive voice served you in negotiation poorly that's the sort of voice is almost always counterproductive it feels like getting h..."

"assertive tone of voice so when when we do our training typically we do an exercise called 60 seconds so she dies and I play the bad guy bank robber and I ask you to be the hostage negotiator and your..."

"now we're doing this exercise in Austin a couple of years ago the first participant has an Apple watch on he tells us afterwards that's sitting still not even answering when he first gets hit in the f..."

"question but he said there's studies out there that show that strategic umbrage works and another thing that I also enjoy uh you probably get tired of me saying wonderful things about Andrew you talk ..."

"about strategic umbrage were done the ones that I've seen that show it's effective there were simulated negotiations with college students now here's the problem with that a simulated negotiation with..."

"it the data that says that strategic umbrage works is based on flawed circumstances can you explain strategic umbrage get mad scaring the other side into a deal getting mad at using anger strategicall..."

"but when I find somebody that loves the mirror I'll always ask them you know how'd you I just go on I IQ and typically their IQ is pretty high now I don't know why that combination attracts people to ..."

"it can be extremely powerful with someone who's genuine and it comes across in their demeanor and it's used in a way that you can tell is meant to encourage you yeah as opposed to explore you sure and..."

"and I go sounds like you want me to talk to this person yes that would be annoying if it's just so absurdly obvious yeah that there's no Insight in your label at all and as soon as you're demonstratin..."

"like techniques you can use but at the core of it is empathy yeah that's the main things and be able to just sit there and listen and perceive yeah and look for insights you know what I like silence o..."

"amygdala is kicking into gear again sorry I realize it's more complicated than that until you've experienced it so accommodators hope based how do they signal Fury the silent treatment ah so when you ..."

"and there's a lot more to it than that that we've discovered I mean it triggers deep thinking it wears people down deep thinking is could be exhausting and you want so what's the what's the role of ex..."

"always chasing together I think I think so yeah and that's what the that's right it's about yes like whatever you're triggering whatever the chemistry you're triggering in your brain you're like yeah ..."

"owners were not opening their books to the players players wanted to see the numbers and in order to not open their books they just sent a rep sell the press conference saying we've given them players..."

"negotiations is a lack of discussion of next steps that's deep who is the uh best negotiator you've ever met yeah and actually probably my son Brandon yeah yeah he's ridiculously talented I mean he's ..."

"do you see some of the techniques that you talk about as manipulative manipulation is whether or not I'm trying to exploit you hurt you um am I trying to manipulate a bank robber and to let me save hi..."

"is just a bad idea for a variety of reasons first of all um there's really good change the other side it's a better life than you are they're going to spot it right off the bat yeah yeah secondly they..."

"or no um really close fine line I mean I you know I I Ruled in here not having any expectations not looking for anything other than have an interesting conversation and um to hear what was behind the ..."

"as funny as it's to say I have a lot of anxiety about conversation is that it basically do the same kind of practice practice some of the techniques yeah genuinely just trying to make sure you heard s..."

"conversation but what stands out to you as conversation that changed you as a person maybe well there's probably been a lot of them along the way I mean but one that one that I remember on a regular b..."

"felt in a moment so a couple years later I'm on a suicide hotline now I got this line in the back of my head you know um line technique reaction read whatever you want to call it guy calls in on a hot..."

"thanks and that was all I said so those two conversations which are overlapping conversations those two things really stick out of my mind do those things like through all the different negotiations a..."

"and looking for connection um or just if we're If we're honest about it and so all humans have that same all the same different components of um oh it makes them tick so you you kind of see yourself b..."

"spend together yeah okay uh I I just wanna I completely forgot I want to ask you about this the uh 7 38 55 rule it's really interesting does this is there an all truth to it uh that seven percent of a..."

"got to balance it this is how we got to do it those that communicate principally in writing the meaning of the words are much more important to them so they're deeply uncomfortable with seven being Aw..."

"the presentation of the whole thing I mean they're yeah yeah I'm a big fan of uh constraint mediums of communication which writing is or voice like Clubhouse there's a personality to a human being whe..."

"there were the words and the tone of voice and but it lacked the visual to go with it uh nevertheless it was probably funny um uh maybe not to him uh just just as uh interesting to ask I don't know if..."

"argue with you you know you say you say to a chadbot you know your price is too high chadbot is designed to come back with a smiley face yeah you say to a person your price is too high if you go how d..."

"could create something beautiful and then when I was in a crisis negotiation unit you know my last seven years in the FBI it was a guy that um named Vince brilliant dude brilliant brilliant negotiator..."

"society very interesting uh do you think there will always be war in the world yeah [Laughter] uh so there will always be a need for negotiators and negotiating well as it turns out um why do you thin..."

"really small what advice would you give to a young person today about how to have a career they could be proud of or a life maybe somebody in high school College trying to figure out their way in this..."

"now when I was in the FBI I worked really hard at you know the number one core mission of the FBI is protect and defend the American people so I could pursue that value at all times which I did or I c..."

"when I thought I can have that significant of an impact on another human being in this short of a period of time that's really cool how hard is it to talk somebody off the ledge so this question is a ..."