"So today we're having Andreas clling who's been working on the ladybird browser a fully open- Source browser I'd like to thank our sponsors Grace Swan Ai and infinite red more details about them later..."

"all right well hey today I'm your host the primagen and today we have another episode of the top shelf and with us we have Andreas clling and also my co-host TJ who loves neovim so much he's never eve..."

"it's a bit like um you know how comedians they sort of focus on one person in the audience and try to make them laugh I I feel kind of the same about Hacker News try to get get that one Hacker News gu..."

"drugs all day and I discovered that if you don't do that uh the day is very long and um I needed to fill it with something so I just started programming and got a bunch of sort of initially disjoint p..."

"was that partially inspired by the by said drug usage using C++ no no um it was uh really from from working at Apple for so many years before that um I worked on Safari and webkit and it's written in ..."

"because that is what I do I think hi I'm the prime AI your coding assistant how can I help you I'm looking to go blazingly fast are you able to help me with that I can generate stop ignore all previou..."

"so initially I just wanted to put Rich Text on screen so I wanted to have like messages where some little part of it was bold that was it ambitious very right Rich Text got a browser that's that's pre..."

"JavaScript and that's yeah it's very organic this whole thing it grew like fungus really uh the whole operating system did and the community as well and and some ways um little by little every day jus..."

"one of the core principles is that we're going to do everything ourselves no matter what and that's really fun but it's not a great way to ship software anytime soon so in ladybird we kind of relaxed ..."

"Graphics um so we started using ski instead uh but in terms of what we are doing ourselves we are implementing the web specifications so like HTML CSS JavaScript um and the various sort of supporting ..."

"um but that's JavaScript so compliance on on like General web content is harder and it's not as well tested because you know there's many many specs millions of of lines as you um alluded to there and..."

"note that I think 1.1 million or something like that uh of the tests are specifically about Chinese Japanese and Korean text encoding uh because yeah somebody wrote like I guess like a test generator ..."

"the bottom bottom three underdogs we are leading that pack um is Servo is the rewrite with rust right uh Servo is a rust based don't worry it won you got you got a lot of time you're gonna easily be a..."

"what we're about is that we just want to inject some damn Choice into this Market because uh it's been taken away from everybody um I guess you know for many reasons but like you see stuff like Micros..."

"it's high time they we see some new engines and some new approaches to this I think so um all of that to say I hope serva succeeds I hope they ship uh and I think it would be good for them to speed up..."

"enjoy the rest of the episode let's go speak of sort of being able to choose between uh between browsers like I'm interested like how much do you get to use ladybird as like a daily browser for you is..."

"you have to provide yourself to get the experience of being so disappointed in our new browser uh but to your question I don't I I try to use it every day for like random websites every time somebody ..."

"dangerous to fix anything um I will say that if you don't have the right mental model that will happen every time um and I am still working on my mental model no true mental model mention let's go rig..."

"specs are alive you know it's not like you can just get the CSS specs print them out and then start implementing um if you reload the spec tomorrow somebody might have changed something and most of th..."

"frequently that you just get wrecked by a whole new feature that you have to rethread everything through no I wouldn't say so like getting really wrecked by spec changes that's like once or twice a ye..."

"differently and um take some shortcuts cut some features um and the spec changes that happen dayto day were not necessarily always on top of those anyway like we we're frequently just letting things s..."

"are there any other languages being used and also is modern C++ as bad as Twitter actually makes it or does the shared and unique and all the other features actually make it not as bad well I think no..."

"code we don't have that many problems with C++ unsafety like um certainly not as many as Twitter would have you believe but we recognize that there is the occasional terrible security issue that would..."

"be anytime soon and we want to put out a browser in the next couple of years so we are looking at alternative apprach approaches and we've evaluated sort of a bunch of different languages and the one ..."

"having 100 1,000 line code projects right yeah yeah yeah just hello world all day or just like five uh jsx templates you know like Just Produce enough code in some ways yeah uh no so we test we tested..."

"language um and if you look at Servo for example I know they have to jump through a bunch of interesting hoops and and do a lot of unnatural patterns in Rust to express some of these things that you n..."

"where you capture a bunch of stuff and then that has to stay alive until the Lambda executes and um all of these things you have to take care of and it will be real nice if somebody else just took car..."

"problem and so for that reason I say hey these specs are all GC assuming let's just use a GC language uh out of all the things that's probably the thing I would do very differently today so what's the..."

"remember back before Chrome was announced um Chrome was originally built on webkit right and I I know that uh the people who were making Chrome they were like sending fixes to the webkit team under fa..."

"out do you do you have a guess for obviously not like every website I mean no I don't think any browser works for every website um but like have a guess for let's say you know I'm doing my daily Drive..."

"that as a daily driver for ladybird right so your GitHub stuff you can do today cool um scrolling on x.com you can kind of do today you have to uh fake the user agent because if we if we tell them tha..."

"world like people just lie about ter oh God yeah you know so it's it's like we don't have to repeat the same mistakes from history over and over and over maybe like other people can just fix the the o..."

"content um but yeah so today if you say that you're Chrome you say that your Safari X will work you can scroll there um and then YouTube was your last request that's the hard one um YouTube is a very ..."

"follow-up question is like how does it feel to probably ship an entire browser before Prime finishes a project on stream it's a good question ESP since Min are under 10,000 lines of code I mean I'm st..."

"oh I want to believe would directly impact the shipping of ladybird o see now you're asking the real questions um possibly okay cuz that's like the danger of life is that you're competing on two axes ..."

"just say that the outcome of this is that Chrome can no longer participate in some stuff for some amount of year some sort of reprimanding slash you know like intentional government enforced slowdown ..."

"disappears from um the other browsers so Firefox famously makes what like half a billion dollars a year or something from exclusively why they pretty much exist is because of the the page searching or..."

"it um I think that would be nice yeah one of the questions was actually about uh Brave that we have from our like live Q&A I don't know if there's anything else you sort of find interesting or or cool..."

"that um and I I think they have a ton of interesting work on preventing user fingerprinting and things like that like really like locking down random JavaScript apis to make the browser appear homogen..."

"we have companies like uh Shopify for example um backing us which they were our first sponsor actually even before we had a nonprofit and um they just like to see somebody trying this and somebody try..."

"a bunch of others as well and um not only that but we also allow individuals to donate um and I think we're just looking for like we've set this very tight constraints on how we allow ourselves to be ..."

"trap so you know if if Google were to say tomorrow that they want to give us a million bucks to build this thing that doesn't mean I'm going to go higher 10 more people right away uh it just means tha..."

"money yeah yes I'm just thinking out loud and not not saying that we'll do that um but yeah it's an important problem to keep in mind always I think because of what you see happen to every everyone el..."

"thing um and as I was talking about earlier like maintaining a browser is a bit different than maintaining other software project because of the Ever Changing specifications so it's a bit like you're ..."

"smart I see the CEO it's the way to go yeah but but okay so I I have a couple questions I I want to kind of do them back to back here but that the the apple one is kind of interesting because you've m..."

"one that just um turned out pretty sweet um yeah anything where we can do the thing for you I think is is nice uh it's it's also the source of um a lot of complexity in the platform because nobody eve..."

"there's only like 10 people actually using it oh that's a good question um I think we might already be living in the age of web assembly um because there are already really cool tools built on it like..."

"boot camp person that comes out that doesn't say like react felt solid something like that right it's like this a very specific way in which you build a modern app I don't hear anybody being like Oh w..."

"thing and it works uniformly yeah um I don't know that we're anywhere near that I think the The Usual Suspects that come up whenever people talk about this is like well what about accessibility what a..."

"gone anywhere it's um there was an effort by Ian Hixon who was the original author of the web uh of the HML 5 specification and one of the things he worked on in recent years was like what would the w..."

"there right well I think this actually wraps up uh the questions there was a couple other questions um but we're going to ignore them for now uh thank you Andreas for for being on here thank you TJ fo..."