"there's this whole concept of safe basically scaled agile right so scaled agile framework came out of the desire to figure out how do we scale scrum and different processes I do not recommend using sa..."

"Perry Melissa thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thanks Lenny thanks for having me first let me give a little context on this conversation that we're having I think it's going..."

"you to come on to talk about this you've been up close and personal with a lot of companies working with this way of working with product owners scaled agile and all these things and so I couldn't thi..."

"product PS you want to take your product LED know how a step further check out peno's lineup of free certification courses led by talk product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your..."

"absolutely Lenny we've heard so many for stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of bad records we are laser focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distraction..."

"about how we use scrum when I started working with this team in a startup and it was the first time I ever heard of it that was like 2011 and at the time the person who was teaching me about agile was..."

"through my school product Institute and I'd get called into these large companies like all these large Banks um probably around 2014 2015 to help them learn product management and I was really excited..."

"product management on it and they they've really turned that around in the card business but so many organizations are still at the beginning of this journey and they're at the place where I saw peopl..."

"board uh there was uh behavioral driven development there was featur driven development that was a style of AG all there was um XP extreme programming that was started by Ron Jeff all of these people ..."

"the people who signed the agile Manifesto Jeff and Ken as I was talking about they were independently kind of coming up with scrum on their own in their different companies and they got together and s..."

"Manifesto realized was if we do it the other way if we do a waterfall type environment so agile waterfall that's where we go across there's a lot of risk because we don't test it with the customer and..."

"the value of the use of scrum if they don't the scrum Master is held accountable then it's got another tip if we go deeper into this says for commercial development the product owner may be the produc..."

"I need this feature I need this feature I need this this feature Scrump doesn't describe how to get the stuff into the backlog and it didn't in the 2013 manuals the manuals have all been a little bit ..."

"manager so then what happened was we went into this these agile Transformations at these companies and uh they said hey let's adopt scrum because scrum was built as a way to build better products fast..."

"agile Transformations and that's where a lot of companies still are today so this product owner rooll did not emerge from product management as we know it today it was a way to help the developers pri..."

"talk about scrum it's just one piece of the puzzle and when people talk about agile now they almost always associate it with scrum I was actually Googling agile methodologies and like I said the other..."

"picture question that's coming to mind as you talk about this and I'm imagining Founders listening to this and smaller companies listening to this like why do we need any of this we're we're just like..."

"team can go hit the road running and people can ask important questions if you're not doing that that's where I think things like a framework help but if you already you're doing that you don't need a..."

"right who actually cares and where there's a lot of I think baggage in the industry and where I think where I hear product managers get really frustrated in other people as well developers too is that..."

"really adopting it and from what I've seen in the data it's also companies that are as you I think alluded to at the beginning not like necessarily software first product first companies like feels li..."

"don't know how it's going for them it might to me it might be Overkill if you're doing that with like a team that's pretty pretty experienced in doing this yeah and what I meant what I was inating is ..."

"the executives at really large Enterprises we're talking tens of thousands of people right they love safe because it prescribes a lot of an operating model of what to do when it comes to development b..."

"writing user stories I'm like on on what like what are you what are you controlling and she's like the login API for a bank I'm like can you log in she's like yeah and I'm like so so what else are you..."

"you get on the train when you're ready to ship things and you make sure that it all goes pretty smoothly to get to that potential shippable increment or that big feature launch that you would be doing..."

"that because we Sprint back to back and I was like what does that mean and they're like as as a team we go and we basically do two we Sprint into two we Sprint into two we Sprint and I got to make sur..."

"organizations are not set up with the right feedback mechanisms the right user research and the right uh data to tell us if everything is working so they can feed that in to the next release planning ..."

"don't get experience with the strategy like figuring out what customers want breaking it down looking in at the market research determining like is this valuable is this what we should be working on a..."

"organization I somebody came and told me the CIO came and told me I'm in charge now right I'm in charge of all of the developers or I'm in charge of all the product managers now where do you start rig..."

"from ways of working which is what safe is doing right it's about how do you do your jobs in those areas and a lot of organizations who adopt safe don't realize that you need AE of product right like ..."

"like you can be cynical about all this and like be like what the hell are people thinking this is crazy but as you describe people just have like a problem to solve they've never done this before they..."

"it up and then we got to look at our culture and incentives like are we just rewarding people for shipping as many things as possible Right which is like hey just put everything you possibly can into ..."

"solving that problem of connecting the value back to the product teams instead it's seen as a role that almost like babysits developers or kind of tells everybody what to do but where's the discovery ..."

"really pay attention because we're transforming in this way of working what happens is some of the roles that we had before do not serve us now right maybe we don't need a million project managers may..."

"water company in the Netherlands right and uh they decided to adopt safe and this is this was on the news like a couple months ago they decided to adopt safe in their it teams and start working with i..."

"not we're talking about work about work but we're not actually getting into what are we achieving here and that that's the the part I do not like about rigid processes when it comes to this so that to..."

"more people out there and more leaders who have done this before because we've been doing this for 10 years so there's shudy Patel at she's Chief product officer at uh US Bank for small business banki..."

"you can do that at all levels you don't have to just do it with the teams you could do it at director level you could do it at BP level that that's how we should be thinking about this now there are s..."

"of this too is recognizing that product management is not just this this role in scrum and I I say this in my like talk too I say take scrum away you still need product management right like product o..."

"if you want to be great at your job and you need more support there like speak up right speak up at a certain point I do tell people this if you feel like you can't do great product management in your..."

"software in these large corporations too because there are right there's pockets of people who are doing it super super well and if you are one of those people who's been pushing the boundaries doing ..."

"should be laid out because I do read tons of rumes to hire people and I and also like Chief product officer same thing if I see immediately like implemented scrum processes across the organization I'm..."

"off to developers taking a step further if you're working on customer facing things who are your customers did you go out and talk to them I by you know interfacing with customers and understanding th..."

"have seen on LinkedIn it's a certified scrum product owner now one thing to remember and this is about all agile stuff is like we call it the agile industrial complex agile coaches and agile trainers ..."

"talk about they're probably going to look at that and say this person doesn't know what they're doing right like this this is not here so if you do know what you're doing and you did that for a reason..."

"different type of skill it's a different type of certification but if you see any like cpos it's typically a two-day workshop that they went to and then got certified so that's the difference with thi..."

"when you come into an org and they have product owners do you encourage them to get rid of product owners a title and role and making product managers or do you keep product owners I say that we shoul..."

"it was very different I did not realize how much you know people work it was I have to go influence these people I have to do all this stuff like this is actually not really what I wanted to do and we..."

"successful I've seen people bring in some more directors scatter them around and they've leveled up these product owners who were not necessarily doing great product management and now they're doing f..."

"the things we've talked about we've covered so much ground kind of the history of agile and scrum and safes and product owners we've got into all kinds of advice on how to be how to do this better as ..."

"by certifying people and by Consulting on these processes right McKenzie made a huge division to do this and a lot of safe was actually introduced to organizations from McKenzie and from large organiz..."

"consistently you've seen that happen a lot anything you want to add there to give people hope yeah I mean the the biggest push back I hear from large organizations especially ones that are not softwar..."

"the danger comes in I imagine people are going to have a lot of questions and hope to get even more advice so a couple final questions work can folks finding online if they want to ask more questions ..."

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