All Segments
This Research System Will Change How You Write — Johann Hari
16 segments available
The world isn’t made of atoms, it’s made of stories. I’ve never heard anyone speak so deeply about interviewing. Johann Hari has written four books, and for each one he travels the globe to record hundreds of conversations. In this episode, he’ll explain exactly how he does it, sharing stories of getting up close and personal with homeless people in Vegas and a crack dealer in New York. In the end you’ll hear a wild story of the apple in Vietnam that almost killed him. Enjoy! 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:36 Finding the problem 00:05:10 Interviewing a crack dealer in NYC 00:13:02 The culture of loneliness 00:18:26 Making a movie about your life 00:21:34 People are contradictory 00:26:54 Why does this story matter 00:33:34 True intelligence 00:40:05 Write through writer’s block 00:47:47 Clarity 00:53:33 Talk less, listen more 00:57:11 Problem with modern journalism 01:01:51 The maps of reality 01:09:20 Make yourself vulnerable Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2DjMSboniFAeGA8v9NpoPv X: https://x.com/david_perell
Segments Timeline
The Power of Stories
In this introduction, David Perell sets the stage for a deep dive into the art of interviewing with Johann Hari. He emphasizes the significance of stories over mere facts, hinting at Hari's unique approach to gathering insights through personal narratives from diverse individuals, including the homeless and drug dealers.
"The world isn't made of atoms, it's made of stories. This quote captures the episode that you're about to hear with Johan Hari. And look, I'll tell you this. I've never heard someone speak so deeply a..."
Finding the Problem
Johann Hari discusses the foundational approach to his writing, which begins with identifying a personal problem he seeks to understand. He shares how his experiences with addiction in his family inspired his first book, 'Chasing the Scream,' and how each subsequent book addresses systemic issues related to mental health, attention, and societal challenges.
"different books, what I what I sense is that every book basically looks at a systemic problem and it says something's gone wrong here. You do research and then generally you then find something where ..."
Researching Addiction
Hari elaborates on his research process for 'Chasing the Scream,' detailing how he formulates questions to guide his exploration of addiction and the war on drugs. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the stories behind addiction, including the perspectives of drug dealers and law enforcement, to uncover deeper truths.
"book loss connections you know I was about to turn 40 every year that I've been alive depression and anxiety had increased in the US and Britain the countries where I spend my time batch across the en..."
Interviewing a Crack Dealer
In this segment, Johann Hari recounts his experience interviewing Chino Harden, a former crack dealer. He shares the profound insights gained from their conversations, highlighting the complexities of addiction and the human stories that often go unheard in mainstream narratives.
"there's a wonderful group called Vocal NYC who do work in deprived parts of the of New York. Um and I went to them. I was living in New York at the time and I said I want to meet some interesting drug..."
The Culture of Loneliness
Hari reflects on the pervasive culture of loneliness in modern society, citing statistics that reveal a significant portion of the population feels unknown and unheard. He discusses how this loneliness impacts communication and the importance of truly listening to others.
"severe moral judgment. It's actually the most of our public discourse is about saying no, you're the bad person, right? That essentially that's most of our the way we talk to each other now. And if yo..."
Making a Movie About Your Life
In this thought-provoking segment, Johann Hari explores the concept of narrating one's life as if it were a movie. He emphasizes the importance of storytelling in understanding personal experiences and how framing our lives in narrative form can lead to greater insights.
"making a movie about your life, what would the key scenes be? That's a good question. You know, um, what would the turning point? often I'll say what do you see in your mind when you picture that mome..."
People Are Contradictory
Hari discusses the inherent contradictions within individuals and how understanding these complexities can lead to richer narratives. He emphasizes the need for empathy and openness when engaging with others' stories, recognizing that people often embody conflicting traits.
"that's another thing I think about interviewing that's really, really important to me. You want to give people the space to be complex and contradictory. I'm not looking to tell the one underlying tru..."
Why Does This Story Matter?
In this segment, Johann Hari addresses the significance of the stories he uncovers through his research. He articulates how personal narratives can illuminate broader societal issues, making them relevant and impactful for readers.
"are you trying to answer? What story are you trying to tell? Right? Once you're attuned to why am I telling this story? Why does it matter? Right? If if you remain tuned into that, I always go back to..."
True Intelligence
Hari reflects on the nature of true intelligence, arguing that it extends beyond academic knowledge to include emotional and social understanding. He emphasizes the importance of connecting with others to gain insights that traditional education may overlook.
"to happen? Yeah. No, my books have done I'm very lucky my books have um resonated with lots of people. Um I think it's been a combination of factors. Um, you're pushing me to do an unbritish thing, wh..."
Write Through Writer’s Block
In this practical segment, Johann Hari shares strategies for overcoming writer's block. He discusses the importance of persistence and the techniques he employs to keep the creative process flowing, even in challenging times.
"this a really interesting question is how do you write through writer's block? Right? So, if you're blocked and you have the Portugal problem, how do you actually uncover that faster? Because what hap..."
Clarity in Communication
Hari emphasizes the need for clarity in communication, both in writing and in interviews. He discusses how clear expression of thoughts can enhance understanding and connection with others, making narratives more impactful.
"And what sort of heruristics do you use when editing? Like what are you looking for? You looking for what makes you bored? Like what's going on there? The single most important thing for me by far is ..."
Talk Less, Listen More
In this insightful segment, Johann Hari advocates for the art of listening over talking. He shares techniques for fostering deeper conversations by prioritizing listening, which can lead to more meaningful exchanges and understanding.
"I'm not here to persuade you, right? I'm here to convey the complex reality and encourage you to think about it with me. Now, if you come to the same conclusion as me, that's delightful. Then we can b..."
The Problem with Modern Journalism
Hari critiques modern journalism, highlighting its shortcomings in truly capturing the complexities of human stories. He discusses the need for a more nuanced approach that prioritizes depth and understanding over sensationalism.
"Well, one of the major problems with contemporary journalism is that it ends up being very rooted in single events, in charts, in data that somehow if you only look at that, you miss something fundame..."
The Maps of Reality
In this segment, Johann Hari explores the concept of 'maps of reality' and how our perceptions shape our understanding of the world. He emphasizes the importance of questioning these maps to uncover deeper truths.
"below the surface. Yeah. Not to just throw another analogy at this, but one of the things that has been a real theme throughout this conversation, throughout your work, is there's the Lewis Carol has ..."
Make Yourself Vulnerable
Hari concludes with a powerful message about vulnerability in storytelling and interviews. He discusses how being open and vulnerable can foster trust and lead to richer, more authentic narratives.
"thing to make yourself vulnerable in public. Um so for example, I open my book Lost Connections with this moment. It's a weird moment for me, but um I was in Vietnam researching my biography of Nam Ch..."
The Strength in Vulnerability
Johann Hari concludes with a powerful message about the strength found in vulnerability. He discusses how sharing our struggles can foster connection and empathy, despite the risks involved. By making ourselves vulnerable, we can create deeper relationships and understanding, which is essential in both writing and life.
"was like, I'm going to die. I'll never get to write about it. And anyway, it turned out what happened is um because I had retained no water in my body for like 5 days, I I was literally I was like a p..."