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Identify your bullseye customer in one day | Michael Margolis (UX Research Partner at GV)
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Michael Margolis has been a UX research partner at Google Ventures (GV) for nearly 15 years. He has developed a unique approach to helping startups identify their “bullseye customer”—the specific subset of their target market who initially is most likely to adopt their product. Michael has conducted over 300 hands-on research sprints with GV portfolio companies across various industries and helped develop the “design sprint” process made famous by the book Sprint. In our conversation, we discuss: • The step-by-step process of running a bullseye customer sprint • The most common mistakes founders make when picking their first customers • Practical tips for conducting effective customer interviews • How to create simple but effective prototypes for user research • The power of “watch parties” in aligning teams around customer insights • How to apply these methods beyond typical tech startups Brought to you by: • Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: https://www.geteppo.com/ • Paragon—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want: https://www.useparagon.com/lenny • Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth: https://enterpret.com/lenny Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/finding-your-bullseye-customer-michael-margolis Where to find Michael Margolis: • X: https://x.com/mmargolis • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mmargolis/ • Website: https://www.learnmorefaster.com/ • Medium: https://medium.com/@mmargolis Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Michael’s background (09:11) Bullseye customers vs. ideal customer profiles (ICPs) (12:32) An overview of the bullseye customer sprint (20:56) When to use the bullseye customer sprint (22:19) Step one: Agree on goals and key questions (23:48) Step two: Define your bullseye customer (25:52) The importance of a narrow target audience (29:00) An example of step two in action (38:24) Narrowing attributes and exclusion criteria (43:28) Step three: Recruiting and compensating participants (56:11) Step four: Creating effective prototypes (01:01:10) Step five: Drafting your interview guide (01:08:49) Step six: The watch party method (01:19:40) Common pitfalls and final thoughts (01:24:43) Closing thoughts and where to find Michael Referenced: • Learn More Faster: How to Find Your Bullseye Customer and Their Perfect Product: https://www.learnmorefaster.com • Alcoa: https://www.alcoa.com • Dupont: https://www.dupont.com • Ericsson: https://www.ericsson.com • Google Ventures: https://www.gv.com/ • Kate Aronowitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katearonowitz/ • Vanessa Cho on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veecho/ • How to kickstart and scale a consumer business—Step 2: Identify your super-specific who: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/consumer-business-super-specific-who • When enough is enough | Andy Johns (ex-FB, Twitter, Quora): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns • Zipline for health care: https://www.flyzipline.com/solutions/healthcare • Jobs to Be Done framework: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done • User Interviews: https://www.userinterviews.com/ • Respondent: https://www.respondent.io/ • Flatiron Health: https://flatiron.com/ • How to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer • Gong: https://www.gong.io • Linear: https://linear.app • Gusto: https://gusto.com/ • Humble Inquiry: The Gentle Art of Asking Instead of Telling: https://bookshop.org/p/books/humble-inquiry-second-edition-the-gentle-art-of-asking-instead-of-telling-edgar-h-schein/14739375 • Figma: https://www.figma.com Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
Understanding the Bullseye Customer
Michael Margolis introduces the concept of a 'bullseye customer,' emphasizing its importance for startups. He explains that a bullseye customer is a specific subset of the target market most likely to adopt a product or service. This focus helps founders prioritize feedback and align their teams on key objectives, contrasting with the broader ideal customer profiles (ICPs) that many startups initially consider.
"you have done 30 years of work and iteration and refinement you're here just to tell us here's the most important thing you need to know and here's how to do it based on all that time I've spent help ..."
The Bullseye Customer Sprint
Margolis outlines the Bullseye Customer Sprint process, which allows teams to identify their bullseye customers in just one day. He describes the formula of 'five and three in one'—interviewing five bullseye customers and testing three simple prototypes. This method fosters team alignment and accelerates the learning process, making it easier to gather actionable insights.
"Sprint that your book describes you basically give people a plan for how to figure this out in a day which sounds like a dream the basic formula the way I think about it is is five and three in one so..."
Michael Margolis: A UX Research Pioneer
In this segment, Michael Margolis shares his extensive background in UX research, detailing his 15 years at Google Ventures and over 300 hands-on research sprints with startups. He emphasizes the importance of clarity in defining target markets and introduces his book, 'Learn More Faster,' which provides a guide for identifying bullseye customers.
"times on this podcast that one of the biggest mistakes Founders make and product teams make is not being very clear and very narrow with their initial target market and I've been looking for a book an..."
The Importance of Narrow Target Markets
Margolis discusses the common mistake founders make by trying to appeal to everyone instead of focusing on a narrow target market. He highlights how successful companies like Amazon and Facebook started with specific customer segments, illustrating the necessity of defining a bullseye customer to streamline product development and feedback prioritization.
"for how to identify your Bullseye customer how to interview people how to recruit people and how to refine your idea to build something that people actually want this episode is both for Founders and ..."
Speed and Focus in Startup Development
In this segment, Margolis emphasizes the importance of speed and focus in the startup journey. He explains how identifying a bullseye customer can significantly change a startup's trajectory by providing clarity on who to target and what problems to solve, ultimately leading to more effective product development.
"topic I have it right here it's called learn more faster and the subtitle is important how to find your Bullseye customer and find their perfect product and interestingly this topic has actually come ..."
The Bullseye Customer Sprint Framework
Margolis elaborates on the structure of the Bullseye Customer Sprint, detailing its four key components. He explains how the sprint is designed to facilitate quick learning and decision-making, allowing teams to validate their hypotheses about their target customers through qualitative interviews and prototype testing.
"experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does when I was atbb one of the things that I led most was our experimentation platform where I c..."
Qualitative Interviews: The Key Ingredient
Margolis highlights the significance of qualitative interviews in the Bullseye Customer Sprint. He argues that these interviews provide deep insights into customer motivations and experiences, which are crucial for understanding how to refine product offerings and better meet customer needs.
"Lenny this episode has brought to you by Paragon the developer platform for building native customer facing Integrations with thirdparty apps our native Integrations on your product road map whether i..."
The Bullseye Customer Sprint Framework
Michael Margolis outlines the Bullseye Customer Sprint framework, which consists of five bullseye customers and three prototypes, all tested in one day. He emphasizes the importance of team alignment on customer selection and the value of qualitative interviews to gain deep insights into customer motivations and experiences.
"there's all kinds of resources and spr and and templates and yeah please grab it okay cool so describe the Sprint high level how how it's laid out and the kind of the four pieces of it yeah so the the..."
Clumping Interviews for Clarity
Margolis discusses the strategy of conducting customer interviews in a clumped format to enhance clarity and identify patterns. By grouping interviews together, the team can more easily discern key takeaways and avoid data saturation, ensuring that insights are actionable and relevant.
"that's our hypothesis so first is five Bullseye customers the next part is about um qualitative interviews so there are lots and lots of different kinds of research methods but what I found over doing..."
The Power of Prototype Comparison
In this segment, Margolis explains the significance of comparing multiple prototypes during customer interviews. He highlights how presenting various options allows customers to provide more nuanced feedback and helps teams avoid overcommitting to a single idea, fostering creativity and objectivity.
"has watched it and so they have that sense and that idea of just doing five of them you hit what's called Data sat auration and so this is a thing in qualitative research um where kind of the the the ..."
Making Customer Research a Team Sport
Margolis emphasizes the importance of team involvement in customer research through 'watch parties.' By live-streaming interviews and facilitating team discussions, everyone gains a shared understanding of customer insights, leading to better alignment and momentum for future actions.
"becomes very powerful and then the other thing is making this a team sport so um the watch parties are a key example of this so I'm conducting these interviews and the whole team is and I'm live strea..."
Identifying Key Questions for Customer Insights
Margolis outlines the first step in the Bullseye Customer Sprint: planning a meeting to identify key questions that need answers. He encourages teams to articulate their uncertainties and assumptions about their product and customers, setting the stage for effective research.
"just to summarize kind of the key elements of approach there's a bullseye customer concept of just like a very narrow uh people a wedge of who would most want this thing and we'll talk more about that..."
Defining Your Bullseye Customer
In this segment, Margolis explains the process of defining the bullseye customer based on the key questions identified earlier. He stresses the importance of narrowing down the target audience to ensure that the insights gathered are relevant and actionable, ultimately guiding product development.
"of the times of when to do it okay let's actually get into the steps uh I believe there's six kind of core steps to the process yeah okay cool what's where do you start what's step one yeah so Step On..."
The Power of Comically Narrow Targeting
Michael Margolis emphasizes the importance of defining a 'comically narrow' bullseye customer to ensure that the team can effectively test their product's value proposition. He explains how this approach reduces variables and helps identify the specific characteristics of the ideal customer, ultimately leading to more insightful feedback during the research process.
"describe it as it should feel comically narrow do that resonate I love that yeah I hadn't heard that phrase but I love that yeah um comically narrow is exactly what it is and there are times that team..."
Learning Through Customer Interviews
In this segment, Margolis discusses the iterative nature of defining the bullseye customer through interviews. He highlights how teams can adjust their understanding based on feedback, discovering new characteristics that may influence customer adoption. This process is crucial for refining the product and ensuring it meets the needs of the target audience.
"what's nice about this is this list this initial list you're making of Bullseye potential customers and attributes is not exactly going to be who you go after once you figure this out it's you want to..."
Case Study: Specialty Prescription Delivery
Margolis shares a practical example involving a delivery service for specialty prescription medications. He outlines the key questions the team needed to answer about their bullseye customer, including urgency of delivery and specific customer characteristics. This case study illustrates the importance of understanding the unique needs of a narrow customer segment.
"I can walk through an example if you want yeah that'd be awesome yeah yeah and I think even just like what are some examples of attributes like what's the list of attributes you should be thinking abo..."
Identifying Critical Customer Scenarios
In this segment, Margolis explains how to identify critical scenarios for the bullseye customer, such as the need for timely delivery of refrigerated medications. He discusses the importance of understanding customer pain points and how these insights can lead to a more tailored product offering that resonates with the target audience.
"delivery right so they've probably used Uber Eats or or something like that and they've been on the medication for a certain amount of time so it's somebody who this is kind of a chronic thing it's no..."
Refining the Bullseye Customer Definition
Margolis emphasizes the iterative process of refining the bullseye customer definition based on feedback from interviews. He discusses how to build confidence in the match between the product and the specific needs of the customer, highlighting the importance of understanding who is most likely to adopt the solution.
"important than ASAP these are important medications they're not waiting until like the last pill is gone like that's not what's happening here but knowing when it was arriving and it turned out that t..."
Avoiding Wasted Efforts in Product Development
In this segment, Margolis shares insights on the value of the bullseye customer sprint in preventing wasted time and resources on unviable projects. He recounts a founder's experience of pivoting away from a project after realizing it didn't meet customer needs, underscoring the importance of validating ideas before significant investment.
"accute I love this example and like intuitively it all just makes sense as you describe what you landed on and like this is what people call product Market fit way you're describing where somebody has..."
The Importance of Finding Thrilled Customers
Margolis discusses the necessity of identifying customers who are genuinely excited about a product. He explains that if a team struggles to find enthusiastic potential customers, it may indicate a fundamental issue with the product-market fit. This segment highlights the critical nature of customer validation in the development process.
"it was this whole subscription like it was going to be a big complicated thing to build we had mocked up a bunch of prototypes and I'd used some free prototypes when we interviewed like it killed the ..."
Framework for Narrowing Customer Attributes
Margolis provides a framework for identifying the attributes of a bullseye customer, including inclusion criteria, exclusion criteria, and triggers. He explains how these criteria help teams focus on the right customer segments and ensure they are targeting individuals who are most likely to benefit from their product.
"I'm like okay let's let's go back and and like we'll see which of these are are flexible you know how do we soften some of these requirements but if in fact I just can't like I can't find these people..."
Understanding Customer Triggers
In this segment, Margolis elaborates on the concept of customer triggers—specific events that make potential customers more receptive to a product. He shares examples of how understanding these triggers can help teams identify their bullseye customers and tailor their marketing strategies effectively.
"what we found is very important are triggers so by inclusion criteria this is usually pretty easy because the team is like yeah these are the people we want in the group right it's people who are taki..."
Narrowing Down Customer Attributes
Margolis shares a systematic approach to narrowing down customer attributes that define a bullseye customer. He discusses various criteria such as user status, industry, organization size, and personal experiences that can disqualify candidates. This segment provides practical insights into how to create a detailed profile of the ideal customer to enhance recruitment efforts.
"Bullseye it's a an an example of a trigger that somebody's like oh yeah like now I need to go do this thing awesome uh I know the jobs to be done framework there's a term for that that's like the like..."
Crafting Effective Screener Questionnaires
This segment focuses on the process of creating screener questionnaires to identify bullseye customers. Margolis explains how to translate customer criteria into questions that filter out unsuitable candidates without leading them to the 'right' answers. He emphasizes the importance of measurable and concrete criteria to ensure effective recruitment.
"customer you start with right awesome okay uh should we move on to the next step sure let's do it what comes next so once I have that set of criteria and the team is all aligned and agreed on what tha..."
Recruitment Strategies for Bullseye Customers
Margolis discusses various strategies for recruiting bullseye customers, including using platforms like userinterviews.com. He shares insights on how to efficiently gather responses and filter candidates based on specific criteria. This segment highlights the importance of speed and specificity in the recruitment process.
"most trusted information as a product manager and start to see and then be able to pick those people out um because what I've wanted to do one of the key things in those Bullseye um criteria are that ..."
Challenges in Finding Specific Customer Groups
In this segment, Margolis addresses the challenges of recruiting hard-to-find customer segments, such as oncologists. He explains the need for alternative recruitment methods, including networking and professional associations, to reach these specialized groups. This discussion underscores the importance of adaptability in recruitment strategies.
"process helping you build best-in-class products faster what makes interprets special is its ability to build and update customer specific AI models that provide the most granular and accurate insight..."
The Difference Between Bullseye Customers and ICP
Margolis clarifies the distinction between bullseye customers and ideal customer profiles (ICPs). He explains that the bullseye customer is a research tool to help identify broader ICPs, emphasizing the learning aspect of this process. This segment highlights the importance of understanding customer needs through research rather than just selling.
"sign like I think there's a a Nuance here of if this group is hard not only hard to find but hard to reach and get them to talk to you at all that's already going to make your life hard building this ..."
Embracing Humble Inquiry in Customer Interviews
This segment introduces the concept of 'humble inquiry' as a method for conducting customer interviews. Margolis discusses the mindset shift required to learn from customers rather than sell to them, emphasizing vulnerability and open-ended questioning. This approach fosters deeper insights and understanding of customer needs.
"me take a quick tangent so as you were talking I actually wrote a post in the past on how to identify your ICP and I put together uh a table of the very first ICP for some of the biggest B2B SAS compa..."
Ensuring Participant Commitment
Margolis shares strategies for ensuring that recruited participants show up for interviews. He discusses the importance of adequate compensation and reminders to increase attendance rates. This segment emphasizes the need for commitment from participants to gather valuable insights during the research process.
"actually an important distinction here I love that and I think it helps that you're finding randos on user interviews that you don't have to worry as much about versus like finding great in shows thro..."
Compensation Strategies for Participants
Margolis elaborates on the compensation strategies for participants in user interviews, advocating for higher payments to ensure commitment. He shares his experiences with different compensation rates, emphasizing that investing in participant engagement is crucial for successful research outcomes. This segment provides actionable insights for startups aiming to conduct effective customer interviews.
"so um it's it's worth spending the money if I'm recently did something where I was talking to attorneys I was paying their hourly rate I was paying like 400 bucks an hour for them to show up but I I n..."
Creating Effective Prototypes
Michael Margolis discusses the next step in the bullseye customer sprint: creating effective prototypes for user testing. He emphasizes the importance of developing distinct examples that showcase different features and variables. This segment highlights the value of using competitor products as prototypes and the significance of articulating the distinct value proposition clearly.
"very high um follow through great okay uh what's the next step so then the next step is to figure out your prototypes and so what I want to do with those is I want to create again these three distinct..."
The Art of Prototyping
In this segment, Margolis explains the process of designing prototypes that effectively communicate the product's value proposition. He stresses the importance of simplicity and clarity in prototypes, advocating for flat designs that convey essential information without overwhelming users. This approach is vital for startups looking to gather meaningful feedback during user interviews.
"you're just missing something right so what we do is work out um the details of of the variables that we're going to spread across these prototypes so there are certain features and then certain varia..."
Drafting Your Interview Guide
Margolis outlines the importance of drafting a comprehensive interview guide for user research. He describes the structure of the interviews, which include discovery questions and prototype comparisons. This segment emphasizes the need for context in understanding participant feedback, providing a framework for conducting insightful and effective user interviews.
"range and then creating these prototypes that are very simple they're just PDFs really it's very flat there's no functionality it's a lot of it is really a a writing exercise to articulate what's the ..."
Building Rapport in Interviews
In this segment, Margolis shares strategies for building rapport with interview participants. He discusses the significance of starting with light conversation to ease participants into the interview process. This approach fosters a comfortable environment, allowing for more genuine and insightful responses, which is crucial for effective user research.
"step so you have these prototypes you've got the schedules interviewed right so you have people coming yeah so you're scheduled so people are showing up on Thursday we're going to start doing intervie..."
Understanding Participant Feedback
Margolis explains how to interpret participant feedback during prototype testing. He emphasizes the importance of context gained from discovery interviews to understand reactions to prototypes. This segment highlights the need for researchers to listen actively and dig deeper into participant responses to uncover valuable insights.
"looking for through the course of this conversation is I want to like grab the best bits and pieces the best Lego pieces so I can then go construct the ideal version version next right because none of..."
The Mindset of a Successful Interviewer
In this segment, Margolis discusses the mindset required for effective interviewing. He shares his personal approach to embodying curiosity and engagement during interviews, contrasting it with his everyday persona. This insight is valuable for anyone looking to improve their interviewing skills and connect meaningfully with participants.
"prototypes I love all that context that you shared this is the step I think where everyone gets kind of scared or afraid or thinking they're doing this wrong they're biasing people so in the book that..."
The Watch Party Method Explained
Margolis introduces the 'watch party' method, a collaborative approach to conducting customer interviews. He explains how this format allows team members to observe interviews in real-time, take notes, and engage in debriefs. This method fosters alignment and shared understanding among team members, enhancing the research process.
"next step is the final step which is the watch party where you actually do this yeah so this is awesome so this is like our it's like our magic hack for for banging all the stuff together right so eve..."
Capturing Insights and Team Alignment
In this segment, Margolis elaborates on how to effectively capture insights during watch parties. He discusses the importance of structured note-taking and collaborative debriefs, ensuring that all team members contribute to the understanding of customer feedback. This process helps in distilling key takeaways and aligning the team on next steps.
"party so we take turns we've assigned roles so people know okay interview to Lenny and Margolis are going to be taking notes that's fine and then there's also a slack Channel usually the background be..."
The Value of Pre-Interview Predictions
Margolis highlights the significance of making predictions before conducting customer interviews. This practice not only sets expectations but also allows teams to compare their assumptions with actual findings post-interview. By capturing these predictions, teams can better appreciate the insights gained and the value of the research process.
"your big questions open questions concerns and so each person then takes 5 10 minutes independently separately individually quietly you just everybody mutes their video and fills that out and it's a w..."
Recognizing Common Blind Spots
In this segment, Margolis discusses common blind spots that teams encounter during customer research. He explains how deep expertise can lead to overestimating customer knowledge and readiness, resulting in misaligned expectations. Recognizing these pitfalls is crucial for refining the research process and ensuring accurate insights.
"mention is we do this thing before the watch party where we get everybody to predict what they think they're going to learn oh I love that and this is really valuable for a bunch of different reasons ..."
The Importance of Specific Recruitment
Margolis stresses the need for precise recruitment of bullseye customers during interviews. He explains how a lack of specificity can lead to unclear conclusions and ineffective research outcomes. By being disciplined in selecting participants, teams can ensure they gather relevant insights that drive product development.
"fast the point you made about how most people after this are like wow we need this is not what I expected and I want to do this more I know that feeling so well every time you're like no I don't need ..."
Narrowing Down Key Attributes
In this final segment, Margolis discusses the process of narrowing down key attributes for identifying bullseye customers. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on distinguishing characteristics that can streamline decision-making and prioritization in product development. This approach helps teams target their efforts effectively.
"um blind spots that we find over and over across a lot of businesses with expert teams that makes sense like most startups realize what they're trying to build is not nobody really cares about so I ge..."
Past Experiences vs. Predictions in User Research
In this insightful discussion, Margolis stresses the importance of focusing on past behaviors rather than relying on participants' predictions about future actions. He explains how understanding what users have done previously provides a more reliable foundation for anticipating their responses to prototypes and product features, thus enhancing the validity of user research.
"brilliant yeah so there's a lot of overlap with this exercise and then how you actually launch uh any other blind spots or pitfalls anything else you think people often run into other than not getting..."
Recognizing Genuine Excitement in Feedback
Margolis advises on how to identify genuine excitement from potential users during interviews. He discusses the significance of observing physical cues, such as pupil dilation, as indicators of true interest. This segment also touches on the dangers of confirmation bias and the importance of maintaining objectivity during user research sessions.
"opinions um and so I I really try to get teams to Anchor more on that I love that and what I think like I think everyone always hears this and then they still fall for this because it's like oh great ..."
Applying User Research Methods in Biotech
In this segment, Margolis explores the application of user research methods in the biotech sector. He discusses the unique challenges and opportunities in this field, particularly in understanding how new therapies fit into clinical workflows and patient experiences. Margolis expresses excitement about the potential impact of these methods in biotech, highlighting the need for tailored approaches in this specialized area.
"then you don't have it okay Michael we did a lot of good work here we've gone through the entire process solved everyone's problems uh I'm going to skip the lightning round just to keep this episode s..."
Engaging with the Community and Resources
Margolis invites listeners to engage with him and share their experiences using the methods discussed. He provides information on accessing his book and resources available at learnmorefaster.com, encouraging feedback on how these techniques can be adapted across various industries. This segment emphasizes the collaborative nature of user research and the importance of community input.
"of curious I don't know to hear from some of your listeners if they're doing some of this in those spaces this is a good segue to two final questions I ask everyone so perfect uh one is just share whe..."