"every new person in the product team is acting like they work at Google and have these infinite resources in infinite time to make sure everything is perfect and there became such this focus on the ri..."

"Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products today my gues..."

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"Casey welcome back to the podcast thanks Lenny great to be here you're the first ever returned guest to my podcast how does that feel I feel honored perhaps a bit unworthy but you know I'll go with it..."

"listening I'm like yeah I always love seeing how I can help companies right so everyone should err on the side reaching out and seeing if I have time to help if there's something they think I can help..."

"a company for a long time yeah the needs the business shift over time and of course we all have different strengths and weaknesses in our game like no one's perfect at everything and in general you kn..."

"first and a product exact second so I think some mistakes I made you know early that I I corrected successfully is you want to show that you are caring and paying attention to the overall business fir..."

"I think products such a confusing uh discipline for people who aren't in it like a sales leader many CEOs you know marketing leader that they don't necessarily know what great looks like and the thing..."

"partially missed the mark and what's really going on and you know you see this with like whatnot because one of the things I'm helping them with is interviewing icpms again which I haven't you know do..."

"like Eventbrite so you start getting these weird responses in the interview process you you ask them to solve a problem and they'd say things like I can't even begin to come up with Solutions until I ..."

"concrete thing that changes a lot of research teams have been laid off because they grew really large and companies kind of found maybe we don't need the like of all the things we can cut it's probabl..."

"that come to mind to that question so if you're a PM on a team that maybe isn't shipping maybe is overusing research do you have any advice of just like when it makes sense to invest in research say y..."

"business and I I would say those are the two extremes probably most people are familiar with but we now have a lot of companies in the Middle where they have more customers those customers are more so..."

"have that they're selling and people who are watching the stream can't engage with the sellers and bid on you know different items so kind of like twitch meets eBay also they describe it awesome and I..."

"there like red flags you look for in these interviews like one is maybe set over like I can't even begin to answer this without research and data is there anything else some things I pay attention to ..."

"how much do you think they're intimidated by being interviewed by Casey Winters how much do you think that factors in I think you overestimate my importance or awareness in the community I think most ..."

"so in terms of using AI now as a PM I'd actually be cautious in like the current iteration of the cycle for PMS yep it's a tool that's trained on sounding smart rather than always necessarily being sm..."

"there's something on Google Docs that I need to figure out how to do that was kind of fancy I asked chat gbt it told me how to do it and I was like oh great I had a similar experience but I just neede..."

"little time here so maybe just to start broadly what is this you kind of came up with a framework of how to think about when founder and tuition should overrule say team expertise and how that changes..."

"signals where their founder intuition has been usurped by team expertise or maybe it's just ebbed in Effectiveness over time and and that of course makes sense right Founders have all these different ..."

"stay deep in anymore so I I built this you know chart on um or I guess I should say table on the different phases of you know a startup right and when you're you're finding product Market sit like eve..."

"thought they needed to make these decisions and they were still the ones that knew everything yep that makes me think about most companies maybe not most but many Founders just like believe they have ..."

"Founders have different forms of feedback they listen to it might be talking to other CEOs or other operators or trusted advisors certain customers some might be very data oriented so you just run the..."

"it it's probably the right way to do it whether I'm correct or not it is a role I sometimes play in the ecosystem I will admit there's an example where you were convinced something was the right way t..."

"I was excited to chat about is around Network effects and marketplaces and SAS and kind of how those things connect I feel like you have the clearest way of thinking about and explaining Network effec..."

"and then there are cross-site network effects where there's two distinct types of users and adding an additional user on one side of the network makes it more valuable for all the types of users on th..."

"I love that though you nailed it I imagine Marketplace Founders listening to this may be wondering hey how do I can I add on these additional Network effects can I evolve towards one of these and what..."

"we've been talking about GrubHub a lot and GrubHub had some pretty strong Network effects and yep and large part thanks to the work you did and one of the benefits of network FX is it creates a barrie..."

"first two that Rose to prominence ubereats would come later but they actually started with a pretty different business model and this is an extremely different business you're hiring drivers you're ma..."

"retrospect um so you know a lot of armchair thinkers are like how could GrubHub have been so stupid to let doordash take the market that they built and look I'll admit GrubHub made some mistakes but I..."

"you know it's essentially when everyone's find like a more efficient Network effect for demand on the on the marketplace side you probably need to copy that like as soon as possible and if you can't c..."

"perfect segue to my next question I only have a couple more there's this uh concept and I think poll from Marketplace Founders to add a SAS tool eventually and have both business models and then there..."

"think what people misunderstand about restaurants historical these restaurants are these incredibly low margin businesses and it's like yeah they are because they're paying the rent no matter what hap..."

"got it okay great so keep going so that's open table so look this is definitely the strategy we are working on with Eventbrite where we started with something that was more sas-like you know enabling ..."

"obviously something we're working on um fair is a company I advise more recently that I think is unlocked this model in like the reverse where there is a wholesale Marketplace between independent reta..."

"um whereas you know marketplaces that add a SAS component you know it's a customer acquisition tool like there or a workflow or retention tool to you know increase retention or reduce disintermediatio..."

"couple things of a couple attributes that kind of tell you that maybe it might work maybe just share those again real quick so take square or sub stack or patreon or like Eventbrite right right all of..."

"yeah there's and then there's of course the marketplaces that win with like standardization of like I can get it at any time it might be from different people but I know the Uber car is going to be th..."

"what this makes me think about is patreon and sub stack and interestingly when I was looking at early patreon days what I understand is they want it to be a Marketplace they wanted to be a place where..."

"awesome I feel the same way and it is I also wasn't sure whether it makes like it's worth calling a Marketplace but for whatever it's worth eighty percent of my new sign ups are coming from sub Stacks..."

"know there's a lot of happy talk out there a lot of posts here's how you do this sure and sometimes you can't I think in order to understand these businesses you have to start with why do investors li..."

"so you look at who's actually been able to do that at scale and it's a really small list Netflix in the US Amazon Prime Spotify Duolingo I think is emerging as one of these players that's making it wo..."

"eventually it'll be no longer profitable and what network effects allow you to do is they allow your product to get better or faster than the customers you target get worse normally through increased ..."

"and this is also why a lot of these companies pivot to B2B they realize uh there's they're not going to get anywhere with b2c the other lesson I took away because I interviewed a lot of these early b2..."

"have time to figure out how to like grow again but if that increases your Burn by like 100 million dollars you have a lot more of a panic on your hands so maybe just to tie the loop tie the knot close..."

"years from now well we've reached our very exciting lightning round I'm just gonna Dive Right In what are two or three books that you've most recommended to other people definitely the goal by Elijah ..."