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How to nail your product positioning | April Dunford (Obviously Awesome)
39 segments available
April Dunford is the author of the must-read best-selling book Obviously Awesome, a definitive guide to product positioning. She spent 25 years leading marketing, product, and sales teams and now runs her own consulting firm, helping companies of all shapes and sizes nail their positioning. April has worked hands-on with over 200 companies on positioning, including Google, IBM, Postman, and Epic Games. In this episode, April delves into the intricacies of positioning, including its distinction from messaging and branding, and shares real-world examples of products with strong and weak positioning. Additionally, April shares her insights on when to bring in a professional and the key differences between segmentation and personas. Don't miss this opportunity to gain valuable knowledge from a true industry leader. — Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/april-dunford-on-product-positioning-segmentation-and-optimizing-your-sales-process/#transcript Where to find April: • Website: https://aprildunford.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/aprildunford • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) April's guest post on Lenny's Newsletter (03:42) April's background (07:36) Interesting companies April has worked with (12:17) Defining positioning (15:31) Company misalignment vs. positioning issues (17:42) How to assess if your product’s positioning is weak or strong (19:50) Examples of companies with great product positioning (22:32) The essential five steps to figuring out your product’s positioning (29:25) Help Scout's positioning process (35:54) How important is having a differentiator? (40:12) The difference between positioning vs. messaging vs. branding (46:29) When to hire a professional (48:32) How long does product positioning take? (54:41) What’s the difference between segmentation and personas? (01:02:50) Where to find April References: • Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It: https://www.aprildunford.com/obviously-awesome • April’s guest post on Lenny's Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/positioning • Epic Games: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/home • Bluelight Analytics: https://www.bluelightanalytics.com/ • Postman: https://www.postman.com/ • Startupfest: https://startupfestival.com/ • Help Scout: https://www.helpscout.com/ • Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/ Thank you to our sponsors: • Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/ • Flatfile: https://flatfile.com/Lenny • Productboard: https://Productboard.com/
Segments Timeline
Understanding Product Positioning
April Dunford discusses the common misconceptions about product positioning in B2B tech companies. She emphasizes that feedback on positioning should come from actual buyers, not outsiders. The segment highlights the importance of resonance with the target audience and how weak positioning can lead to product failures, setting the stage for deeper insights into effective positioning strategies.
"a lot of times people will send me a link to their home page and they'll say what do you think is this position good or not and the problem with B2B tech companies is like well unless I'm your buyer I..."
April Dunford's Expertise
In this segment, Lenny introduces April Dunford, the author of 'Obviously Awesome,' and outlines her extensive experience in product positioning. With over 200 companies helped, including major players like Google and IBM, April's insights are invaluable for understanding the nuances of positioning in the tech industry. This introduction sets the tone for a rich discussion on positioning strategies.
"I did I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor amplitude hey John hey Lenny excited to be here John give us a behind the scenes at amplitude when most people think of amplit..."
The Journey to Positioning Expertise
April shares her journey from studying engineering to becoming a product marketing expert. She recounts her early experiences in startups and how repositioning a struggling product led to her realization of the importance of effective positioning. This narrative illustrates her evolution into a sought-after consultant in the B2B tech space.
"amplitude.com to get started hey Ashley head of marketing and flat file how many B2B SAS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers at least 40 percent and how many of ..."
Diverse Companies and Unique Challenges
April discusses the variety of companies she has worked with, including Epic Games and Blue Light Analytics. She highlights the unique challenges each company faces in positioning their products, showcasing the diverse applications of her expertise. This segment emphasizes the adaptability required in positioning across different industries.
"leverage opportunities for both sign up conversion and increasing long-term retention getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important totally it's incredible to ..."
Identifying Positioning Problems
April explains how to recognize when a company has a positioning problem. She discusses the subtle signs that indicate weak positioning, such as confusion during sales calls and misalignment between customer expectations and product offerings. This segment provides practical insights for companies to assess their positioning effectiveness.
"that I'm just gonna move on but I appreciate it anyway welcome to the podcast so good to be here thanks for having me of course I was also going to say that your guest post on positioning on my newsle..."
Defining Positioning
In this segment, April defines what product positioning truly means. She clarifies that positioning is about articulating how a product delivers unique value to a specific audience. This foundational understanding is crucial for companies looking to differentiate themselves in a competitive market.
"got acquired my boss quit and they made me the vice president of marketing I still have no idea why and then I decided Well This Is My Jam this is what I do now and in particular we had a handful of p..."
The Importance of Market Understanding
April emphasizes the significance of understanding the market and the alternatives available to customers. She discusses how effective positioning involves not only defining the product's unique value but also identifying the target audience that cares about that value. This segment highlights the strategic elements of successful positioning.
"I do so I basically do positioning even more specifically though I really focused on I only do tech companies I only do B2B companies because my background is all really B2B and I don't really get con..."
Signs of Weak Positioning
April Dunford discusses common indicators of weak product positioning during sales calls. She highlights how customer confusion, such as misunderstanding the product's value or mistaking it for a competitor's offering, can signal that the positioning is not resonating. Recognizing these signs early can help teams address positioning issues before they escalate.
"they'll get certain way through the pitch and that you can see the customers just like yeah yeah yeah just back it up and Pitch it to me again that's probably the most common one I get is huh could yo..."
Defining Product Positioning
In this segment, April Dunford defines product positioning and its critical role in marketing. She explains that positioning clarifies how a product delivers unique value to a specific audience, distinguishing it from competitors. Dunford emphasizes the importance of alignment across teams to ensure a cohesive understanding of positioning.
"that is really helpful backing up a little bit we Jump Right In I'm curious how you even describe positioning what the heck is positioning and and broadly just why is it important for people so positi..."
The Team Sport of Positioning
April Dunford elaborates on the collaborative nature of effective product positioning. She stresses that positioning should not be the sole responsibility of the marketing team but requires input from various departments, including sales and product management. This collective effort ensures that everyone is aligned and can effectively communicate the product's value.
"something that I've been thinking about is this isn't something just Founders should care about uh PMS on teams that are building a product should think about this yeah leaders GMS of business units r..."
Misalignment in Positioning
Dunford shares insights on how misalignment within a company can lead to weak positioning. She describes scenarios where different teams have varying interpretations of the product's positioning, resulting in inconsistent messaging. This segment highlights the need for a unified approach to positioning to avoid confusion and enhance market effectiveness.
"got marketing products sales customer success and anybody else we need from the executive team particularly the CEO together in a room when we're building it so that we can all kind of bring our exper..."
The Magic of Great Positioning
April Dunford explains what successful product positioning looks like. She uses Postman as an example, illustrating how clear and simple messaging can resonate with customers. When positioning is done right, it feels intuitive and obvious to the target audience, making it easier for them to understand the product's value.
"sales used to do all the deals used to do everything had had their arms around this Market very tight at one point and then the company's grown often very quickly they've hired a bunch of very senior ..."
Evaluating Positioning Effectiveness
In this segment, Dunford discusses the dynamic nature of product positioning and the importance of regularly evaluating its effectiveness. She emphasizes that positioning can change over time due to market shifts and product evolution, and companies should periodically reassess their positioning to ensure it remains relevant and compelling.
"that positioning is is you know somewhat like messaging in some ways in that it's not a static thing like it changes over time like your product itself it doesn't stay the same the market doesn't stay..."
Understanding Your Audience
April Dunford highlights the significance of knowing your audience when assessing product positioning. She explains that effective positioning must resonate with the target market, and the true test lies in whether potential customers understand and are excited about the product. This segment underscores the need for alignment between product messaging and customer expectations.
"do they go oh yeah I get what this is and that stuff seems like a thing I should have and so a lot of the companies that I really love the positioning of you would go and look at it and say I don't kn..."
The First Step in Positioning
Dunford outlines the initial steps for product managers and founders to take when developing their positioning strategy. She emphasizes the importance of identifying competitive alternatives and understanding what the product needs to outperform in order to win deals. This foundational step is crucial for establishing a strong positioning framework.
"okay so say that you're a PM or founder that's ready to start figuring out their positioning for their product what's the first thing that you do so I've done a lot of thinking about like how should w..."
Competing Against the Status Quo
In this segment, April Dunford discusses the importance of recognizing the status quo as a competitor in B2B markets. She explains that many deals are lost to 'no decision,' which often means potential customers choose to stick with their current solutions. Understanding this dynamic is essential for effective positioning and winning over customers.
"competitive Alternatives now how people mess up this first step is I say competitive Alternatives and they think competition so things that look exactly like me but in B2B we kind of have two sets of ..."
Mapping Capabilities to Value
In this segment, April discusses how to translate product capabilities into customer value. She outlines the process of identifying unique features and mapping them to the benefits they provide, ultimately leading to the creation of distinct value themes. This approach ensures that the positioning is not only relevant but also differentiated from competitors.
"never going to get the customer to come off of that so I got a win against status quo but I also have to win if it's most of the time if it's B to B you don't just buy the first thing you come across ..."
Identifying Target Customers
April Dunford highlights the importance of defining target customers based on their specific needs and how they relate to the product's differentiated value. This step is crucial for ensuring that marketing efforts resonate with the right audience, ultimately driving better engagement and sales.
"okay we have this great feature so what like why does a customer care about it what is the value that feature enables and when I do that mapping over to Value what generally happens is I end up with t..."
The Role of Market Category in Positioning
Dunford discusses the significance of market category in the positioning process. She argues that understanding the unique value a product offers should guide the selection of the market category, rather than starting with the category itself. This ensures that the product's value is clearly communicated to the target audience.
"characteristics of a Target account that make them really really care a lot about that value if I do some deep thinking about that that's going to be my definition of a really best fit customer and th..."
Summarizing the Positioning Process
In this concise summary, April outlines the key steps in the product positioning process: identifying competitive alternatives, mapping differentiated capabilities to value, defining target customers, and selecting the appropriate market category. This structured approach helps ensure effective positioning that resonates with potential buyers.
"so you just basically went through like the steps and the bullet points of things you got to figure out yeah your positioning could just Briefly summarize that just to for people to have that in their..."
Crafting a Compelling Sales Narrative
April explains how to transform positioning insights into a compelling sales narrative. She emphasizes the importance of storytelling in sales, ensuring that all team members can effectively communicate the product's value proposition. This narrative should resonate with the target audience and highlight the product's unique advantages.
"then I can I can ask myself the question well okay what are the characteristics of a Target account that make them care a lot about that value so that that next piece is best fit customers or Target c..."
Case Study: Help Scout's Positioning
In this segment, April uses Help Scout as a case study to illustrate the positioning process. She discusses how Help Scout differentiates itself in a competitive market by focusing on exceptional customer service and how they communicate this value to their target audience. This real-world example highlights the practical application of positioning strategies.
"why make data-driven product decisions that result in higher revenue and user adoption and Empower your product teams to create delightful customer experiences visit productboard.com to learn more wha..."
Delivering Exceptional Customer Service
April elaborates on Help Scout's approach to customer service, emphasizing their commitment to treating customers as individuals rather than numbers. She discusses how this philosophy not only differentiates them from competitors like Zendesk but also creates a deeper relationship with customers, driving loyalty and growth.
"you look through what helps code has it's differentiating they've got a whole bunch of features that are really around delivering really amazing service to the customer so they do a shared inbox they ..."
Weaving the Story into Sales
Dunford explains the importance of weaving the positioning story into the sales process. She discusses how to create a narrative that aligns with the product's differentiated value and resonates with potential customers. This narrative is essential for sales teams to effectively pitch the product and engage prospects.
"that's the value and then you say well who cares a lot about that well not buddy right so there are businesses out there like I would say but I would argue maybe your phone company doesn't really care..."
Documenting the Positioning Process
In this final segment, April discusses the importance of documenting the positioning process and creating a sales narrative. She emphasizes the need for collaboration across teams to ensure everyone understands the product's value and can communicate it effectively. This documentation serves as a foundation for marketing and sales efforts.
"so the way hopscout delivers the story if you you come in you're a qualified Prospect is it starts with this idea that customer success is a growth driver like modern e-commerce companies see customer..."
Understanding Customer Decision-Making
In this segment, April discusses the typical B2B buying process, illustrating how customers often struggle to make informed decisions. She highlights the need for sales teams to help customers justify their choices by clearly articulating the value of their product compared to competitors. This understanding is crucial for closing deals and ensuring customers feel confident in their decisions.
"it together into a sales narrative that we can then take and test with qualified prospects and make sure it works but we've also got something that the sales team can pitch and oh by the way everybody..."
The Importance of Differentiation
April explores the necessity of having a clear differentiator in product positioning. She explains that simply stating a product is 'better' is insufficient; companies must articulate what makes them unique and why that matters to specific customer segments. This segment underscores the significance of understanding customer needs and effectively communicating how a product meets those needs.
"do is you want to take a a customer's viewpoint on this right so let's think about how customers buy and we don't think we don't talk about this a lot right but let's think about how customers buy typ..."
Articulating Value for Target Customers
April emphasizes the importance of articulating value in a way that resonates with different customer segments. She explains that 'better' means different things to different audiences, and companies must clearly define why their solution is the best fit for specific types of customers. This segment highlights the critical role of targeted messaging in successful product positioning.
"it's really hard to win by just saying we're like better say better than slack or better than Zoom but better how yeah like you got to be able to articulate better right so sometimes it's like they ha..."
Positioning vs. Messaging: Key Differences
In this segment, April clarifies the distinction between positioning and messaging. She explains that positioning is a foundational input that informs messaging, which is often confused with the text on a website. Understanding the target audience and competitive landscape is essential for crafting effective messaging that flows from a well-defined positioning strategy.
"lots of stuff you beat the other guys you win deals all the time I love that that's going to be our uh our sound bite from this episode maybe oh I'm green I want to go back to the uh messaging versus ..."
Learning from Positioning Failures
April shares examples of companies that struggled with positioning, such as Magic Leap and Google Glass. She discusses how initial launches often lack clear value propositions, leading to confusion among potential customers. This segment illustrates the importance of effective positioning in ensuring that innovative products meet market needs and resonate with target audiences.
"Downstream from that are there any companies out there that you think need help with their positioning that maybe or have an opportunity to work with someone like you there's some companies that you c..."
When to Seek Professional Help for Positioning
April discusses scenarios in which companies might benefit from professional assistance in refining their positioning. While she believes many companies can handle positioning internally, those that struggle to find clarity or face internal disagreements may need expert guidance. This segment provides insights into recognizing when to bring in external expertise for positioning challenges.
"and they're actually selling B2B now like into manufacturing and they're talking about wide frame of you and all this stuff you can do that's really differentiated than you could with other types of t..."
The Segway's Positioning Failure
April Dunford discusses the Segway's launch and its failure due to poor positioning. She explains how the lack of clear micro-level positioning left customers confused about its purpose, leading to negative perceptions and ultimately, its downfall. This example highlights the critical importance of defining a product's positioning to ensure market acceptance.
"comes up you know on the same way and everyone's like it's not Halloween but that's not what we were promised man and the interesting thing about this segue was that refusal to position it at a micro ..."
When to Hire a Positioning Expert
In this segment, April shares insights on when companies should consider bringing in a positioning expert. She emphasizes that while many companies can handle positioning internally, those facing challenges or significant stakes may benefit from external expertise. April outlines scenarios where her consulting services can help facilitate alignment and ensure effective positioning.
"make sense for a company to bring in someone like you to kind of go deep on positioning I think most companies can do positioning on their own like that's kind of my belief some companies I think lack..."
The Timeline for Positioning Processes
April explains the typical timeline for product positioning exercises, contrasting her week-long sprint approach with companies attempting it independently. She discusses the importance of team alignment and how contentious discussions can affect the duration of the process. This segment provides valuable insights for companies looking to streamline their positioning efforts.
"there how long should it take to do this kind of process either on their own and then with you how long do these things sort of take well so the work that I do we do it as a week-long Sprint now there..."
Keeping Positioning Loose in Early Stages
April advises startups to maintain a flexible positioning strategy during early product stages. She uses the analogy of a fishing net to illustrate how initial positioning should allow for market feedback and adjustments. This segment emphasizes the importance of being open to discovering new market opportunities before tightening positioning.
"so I kind of think about it this way so I've got this new thing I'm either about to launch it into Market or I've got it in Market I've got a handful of customers at that stage what I think you've got..."
Recognizing Patterns in Customer Feedback
In this segment, April discusses how to identify patterns in customer feedback that signal when to tighten product positioning. She explains the transition from a loose positioning strategy to a more defined one, emphasizing the importance of recognizing consistent customer traits and preferences. This insight is crucial for companies looking to refine their market approach.
"now that you touched on this a bit but what does that transition look like between like it's okay to keep it loose and see where the market pulls too like okay we got to start taking this seriously is..."
Segmentation vs. Personas in B2B Marketing
April clarifies the distinction between market segmentation and buyer personas in B2B marketing. She explains how segmentation focuses on company characteristics, while personas delve into individual buyer motivations. This segment is essential for marketers seeking to develop effective strategies tailored to their target audiences.
"that I'm really glad we touched on this topic I mentioned to you earlier that I was in a meet-up last night and uh I was talking about this podcast that I'm starting and asked who they'd love to hear ..."
The Champion Persona
April argues that the most critical persona in B2B sales is the champion within the account. This individual is responsible for advocating for the product and gaining buy-in from other stakeholders. She stresses that if your positioning does not resonate with this champion, the chances of success diminish significantly. Understanding and empowering this persona is key to successful product positioning.
"again if I'm selling a consumer thing maybe all I care about is personas right about all I care about is who's this person inspired B2B everything's a little bit more complicated than that so in a typ..."
Engaging with Your Audience on Social Media
April shares her thoughts on using Twitter as a platform for clarifying her ideas and engaging with her audience. She values constructive feedback and discussions that challenge her thinking, contrasting it with the more supportive nature of LinkedIn interactions. This segment highlights the importance of having a thoughtful and engaged community for refining ideas and fostering innovation.
"account and we should be very thoughtful and we should we should really have our arms around that persona and then later in the deal cycle we need to figure out how to arm that persona to go sell to a..."