All Segments
FBI’s Top Hostage Negotiator: The Art Of Negotiating To Get Whatever You Want: Chris Voss | E147
35 segments available
This episode is part of our USA series, over the coming weeks you will get to see some incredible conversations with guests the likes of which we’ve never seen before. Bringing more value, more incredible stories, and more world-beating expertise. Chris Voss is the former lead negotiator for the FBI, and the author of Never Split the Difference, a book about how to negotiate and how to get what you want from other people which has sold millions of copies worldwide. He has handled practically every high stakes crisis management scenario imaginable. 0:00 Intro 01:27 Early years 03:03 Beginning of your career 09:13 The nature of human behaviour in business negotiations 14:28 The first hostage negotiation job 26:52 Hostage negotiation role play 35:11 How important is listening? 37:46 Different tone of voices for negotiations 41:50 “labelling their pain” 44:46 The power of “thats right” 46:53 Negotiations in romantic relationships 49:55 Was there an instants where it didn’t go right for you? 56:22 Mirroring technique 58:34 Black-swan group 59:03 The last guests question Chris: https://www.instagram.com/thefbinegotiator/ Chris’ book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/1847941494 Books mention: Start With NO - https://www.amazon.com/Start-Negotiating-Tools-that-Pros/dp/0609608002 FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: Huel - https://my.huel.com/Steven Myenergi - https://bit.ly/3oeWGnl Location courtesy of The Nightfall Group: www.nightfallgroup.com
Segments Timeline
The Cost of Negotiation
Chris Voss reflects on the emotional toll of being an FBI negotiator, discussing the balance between personal detachment and empathy in high-stakes situations. He emphasizes the importance of listening in negotiations, stating that understanding others can lead to quicker resolutions in future deals.
"two of the three remaining hostages were killed and they were shot by friendly fire that was the first time that i'd worked anything where people had gotten killed former fbi kidnapping negotiator bes..."
Lessons from Early Life
Chris shares insights from his upbringing, highlighting the work ethic instilled by his father, an entrepreneur. He recounts early experiences that shaped his problem-solving skills and ethical framework, emphasizing the importance of hard work and honesty in achieving success.
"i'm stephen bartlett and this is the direva ceo usa edition i hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this yourself [Music] chris you've lived a extraordinary life for many many reason..."
Transition to Crisis Response
Chris discusses his transition from the FBI SWAT team to becoming a hostage negotiator, detailing the challenges he faced, including a knee injury. He reflects on how setbacks can lead to unexpected opportunities, such as his eventual role in crisis negotiation.
"life from that point and i go into your days and the the swat team for the fbi right how long were you working in the swat team with the fbi uh i was i was technically a member of the swat team for ab..."
The Rejection that Led to Success
Chris recounts a pivotal moment when he was rejected by the head of the FBI's hostage negotiation team. This rejection motivated him to volunteer on a suicide hotline, which ultimately became a stepping stone to his career in negotiation, demonstrating the value of perseverance.
"[Music] and at that point in time i thought well i don't know how many times they could put humpty dumpty back together so i love crisis response because you got to make a decision i've been very much..."
Volunteering on the Hotline
Chris shares his three-year experience volunteering at a suicide hotline, where he learned valuable communication skills. He discusses the emotional challenges faced by volunteers and how this experience parallels the dynamics of business negotiations.
"can't do it stop bothering me it was like got to be something i could do you know i've always kind of been proactive i didn't know i was there's a theory that i uh principal that we operate on now whi..."
Understanding Human Behavior
Chris explains the 'drama triangle' concept, which identifies three archetypes of difficult people: the victim, protector, and persecutor. He connects this framework to negotiation strategies, emphasizing the importance of guiding others to discover their own solutions.
"up like a sponge emotionally difficult uh it can be depend upon how vulnerable you make yourself now since and what i used to tell the volunteers there because uh crisis hotline suicide hotline the bi..."
The Power of Loss in Decision Making
Chris discusses Daniel Kahneman's prospect theory, which states that the fear of loss significantly influences human behavior. He highlights how understanding this concept can enhance negotiation tactics, allowing negotiators to empathize with their counterparts' fears.
"and so what they told us you know the earmarks of watch out for somebody trying to lure you into giving advice versus being a great sounding board helping them discover the answer on their own and the..."
Empathy vs. Sympathy in Negotiation
Chris emphasizes the importance of using empathy in negotiations rather than sympathy. He warns against appearing manipulative and stresses the need for a gentle approach when addressing the fears of others during negotiations.
"your vision of the loss is going to determine your behavior and that was really and we taught on a hotline and taught in uh hostage negotiation look for the loss somebody's taken hostages they've suff..."
First Hostage Negotiation Experience
Chris recounts his first real job as a hostage negotiator during a bank robbery. He reflects on the rarity of such events in real life compared to their portrayal in movies, providing insight into the complexities of negotiating in high-pressure situations.
"where i gotta get you to realize that that's the case quick one we bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the uk and when we're in la if ..."
Running to Trouble: A Negotiator's Mindset
Chris Voss explains the mindset of running towards trouble rather than avoiding it. He shares advice from a government official about the benefits of confronting chaotic situations head-on, which can lead to lower criticism and better outcomes in negotiations.
"in new york city for over 20 years now people get taken hostage in bank robberies but generally the bad guys are gone before the police show up because they know if the police get to play surrounded t..."
The Call to Action: First Bank Robbery
Voss recounts the moment he received the call about a bank robbery with hostages. He describes the urgency and preparation that went into responding to the situation, emphasizing the importance of being ready when opportunities arise.
"i would want to get involved i wasn't doing it to get the t-shirt you know i was doing it because i wanted to get involved and as a matter of fact like i was never asked to go a friend of mine had tau..."
The Role of Teamwork in Negotiation
In this segment, Voss discusses the collaborative nature of hostage negotiation, detailing how the FBI and NYPD worked together during a bank robbery. He highlights the importance of teamwork and communication in high-pressure situations.
"you know the criticism is much lower you know but he's dealing with it somebody's got to do something decisions have to be made it's a great strategy run the trouble and and i had and i'd come to uh t..."
Understanding the Bank Robber's Tactics
Voss analyzes the tactics used by the bank robber during negotiations, including creating a smoke screen of fear and helplessness. He explains how recognizing these tactics is crucial for effective negotiation and maintaining control of the situation.
"he integrated the team first negotiator on the phone was a pd detective he points to me says you're the coach we stood up the rest of the team around joe the original negotiator joe talks the situatio..."
The Importance of Identity in Negotiation
Chris Voss discusses the significance of identity in negotiations, particularly how not revealing one's name can create a disconnect. He shares a specific case where identifying the bank robber's name played a crucial role in the negotiation process.
"so the bank robbery we get on the phone with this guy the the the guy who orchestrated the whole thing and he's like man i'm scared of these guys in here these other these other guys that i'm with man..."
Using Mirroring to Gain Control
Voss explains the mirroring technique he employed during negotiations, illustrating how repeating the bank robber's words led to unexpected revelations. This technique helped him regain control of the conversation and gather critical information.
"that's that's this guy's name happened to be chris also so they voice id this guy and he has never given us his name this is another great technique if we meet and i don't give you my name [Music] it ..."
Creating a Vision for the Future
In this segment, Voss emphasizes the importance of helping the other party envision a positive future during negotiations. He shares how addressing the bank robber's fears and concerns ultimately led to a successful resolution.
"want to get something deep all kinds of smoke screens so i'm on a phone and i hear this female voice come on go like i'm okay i'm okay and i'm like uh who's this what's your name i'm okay and then tha..."
The Ethics of Negotiation
Voss discusses the ethical considerations in negotiation, particularly the importance of honesty and integrity. He reflects on the challenges of maintaining one's reputation while navigating high-stakes situations, emphasizing that trust is paramount.
"well the uh not and you know and you know how do you negotiate when you're not going to give them anything you know you help them see a different vision of the future is what it really boils down to a..."
Role Play: Hostage Negotiation
In a role play scenario, Chris Voss demonstrates a hostage negotiation, highlighting the chaos and urgency of the situation. He illustrates how to manage demands while ensuring the safety of hostages, emphasizing the importance of not putting additional lives at risk. This segment showcases the tactical thinking required in real-life negotiations.
"and i can't risk my reputation so if i'm uh if i'm a if i've got hostages and i call you and i say listen i want a car i think i saw this one on your youtube channel i want a car in 60 seconds outside..."
The Power of Pondering
Voss explains the significance of encouraging adversaries to ponder their decisions during negotiations. He discusses how asking thoughtful questions can lead to deeper reflection and better decision-making, ultimately fostering a collaborative atmosphere rather than an adversarial one. This approach is crucial for achieving successful outcomes.
"well i can't put additional people at risk and by the way while we were doing that i don't know anybody put a clock on us but we went more than 45 seconds it's true and what were you thinking when as ..."
Collaboration Over Adversity
Chris Voss emphasizes that collaboration is essential for long-term relationships in negotiations. He shares insights on how to shift from an adversarial stance to a collaborative one, which can lead to better outcomes for all parties involved. Voss also touches on the concept of karma in negotiations, stressing the importance of maintaining a positive reputation.
"when you said the thing about even if i wanted to do that like i couldn't do that in 45 seconds or whatever i liked that sentence because it obviously there was a degree of empathy there so even if i ..."
The Importance of Listening
In this segment, Voss highlights the critical role of listening in negotiations. He argues that effective listening can enhance deal velocity and build trust, leading to more successful negotiations. Voss shares anecdotes, including insights from Mark Cuban, to illustrate how listening can create a foundation for future deals.
"find an outcome together yeah and point of fact see the crazy thing is hostage negotiators have repeat customers if i get you out alive the chances of you straightening out your life are not great and..."
Three Voices of Negotiation
Chris Voss outlines the three distinct voices used in negotiation: assertive, analytical, and friendly. He explains how each voice can trigger different emotional responses and influence the negotiation process. Voss emphasizes the importance of tone and how it can affect the outcome of negotiations, providing practical examples of each voice in action.
"i had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast as the seasons have begun to change so has my diet and um right now i'm just going to be completely honest with you i'm starting to th..."
The Three Types of Negotiators
Chris Voss discusses the three distinct types of negotiators based on their voice and approach. He explains how assertive negotiators, like Donald Trump, can be blunt and counterproductive, while analytical negotiators use calming tones to foster collaboration. Understanding these types is crucial for effective negotiation.
"and we've got substantive reason to believe that that exists globally regardless of gender ethnicity um religion the three types the globe splitting pretty evenly into thirds got a lot of data on it b..."
The Power of Tone in Negotiation
In this segment, Voss elaborates on the importance of tone in negotiations. He describes how different tones can trigger neurochemical responses, influencing the emotional state of the counterpart. A soothing voice can create a calming effect, while a friendly tone can foster immediate rapport.
"so it wears them out then there's the very analytical type um which was you know that soothing calming voice that i was using triggers a neurochemical response in you it actually calms you down neuroc..."
Labeling Their Pain
Voss introduces the concept of 'labeling their pain' as a negotiation strategy. By acknowledging the negative emotions of the other party, negotiators can help them feel heard and understood. This technique is backed by neuroscience, showing that labeling emotions can diminish their intensity.
"i guess it's an attempt and as you say to like pacify pacify them the other thing that i in chapter three of your book you talk about is by the way you got a pretty good voice you got you got a you go..."
The 'That's Right' Moment
Chris Voss explains the significance of getting a 'that's right' response during negotiations. This phrase indicates that the other party feels understood, which is a crucial step towards reaching a resolution. Voss connects this to the release of oxytocin, enhancing trust and openness in negotiations.
"anecdotally that this stuff works because we're proving it over and over again we're walking the talk we make our own deals very effectively and the people that we coach make their deals and accelerat..."
Negotiation in Everyday Life
Voss reflects on how negotiation skills apply to various aspects of life, including romantic relationships. He emphasizes the importance of understanding and adjusting to the feelings of partners, highlighting that effective communication is key to maintaining healthy relationships.
"heard or seen or felt all of the all of the above right so you know whatever the emotional reaction to that is people feel seen heard felt understood and it's probably a combination of you know the em..."
Learning from Failure
In this segment, Voss shares insights on dealing with failures in negotiations. He discusses the concept of post-traumatic stress growth, emphasizing the importance of learning from negative experiences to improve future performance. He recounts a particularly challenging case that left a lasting impact on him.
"he speculates he says you know i think somebody says that's right when they even experienced an epiphany to some degree that's what you say when you when you what you think you've heard is completely ..."
The Worst Moment of My Career
Chris Voss recounts a traumatic negotiation experience where hostages were killed during a rescue attempt. He reflects on the emotional toll of such incidents and the lessons learned from them. This candid discussion highlights the weight of responsibility in high-stakes negotiations.
"right it's everything it's teams it's business it's podcasting it's my girlfriend whatever when i was reading through the the principles in your book never split the difference um so much of it i coul..."
Finding Perspective in Tragedy
In this segment, Chris Voss reflects on the importance of perspective in the aftermath of traumatic events. He discusses how he learned to cope with the emotional scars of negotiation and the necessity of focusing on the positive changes that can arise from difficult situations.
"my professional career and i used to say is the worst moment of my personal career until i was hearing another hostage negotiator talking about a siege he was in when an infant had had died had been k..."
The Struggles of Relationships Post-Trauma
Voss opens up about the challenges he faced in personal relationships due to his experiences as a hostage negotiator. He highlights the difficulties of unwinding from high-stakes situations and how trauma can affect one's ability to connect with loved ones.
"whole bunch of people ended up living based on strategy adjustments we made as a result of that case it seems like a big a very significant sort of burden to carry right it goes back to what i said at..."
The Importance of Processing Emotions
Chris discusses the necessity of processing emotions after traumatic experiences. He explains his personal approach to unwinding and how it contrasts with the immediate demands of his work, emphasizing the need for self-care in high-pressure environments.
"like the other person might genuinely doing their best to be there with you to get you to talk about it and you know if you if if that isn't the best way that you process it and yeah one of the very d..."
Mastering the Art of Mirroring
In this segment, Voss explains the mirroring technique used in negotiations. He discusses its effectiveness in building rapport and understanding, while also cautioning against its potential misuse as a manipulative tool.
"the hostage negotiators mirror the black swans mirror you know the way that we teach in business now just all verbal okay you know if if you start lining up physically uh which is what the body langua..."
The Black Swan Group: Negotiation Training
Chris Voss introduces the Black Swan Group, a company dedicated to teaching negotiation skills. He outlines the various resources available, including courses and coaching, aimed at helping individuals improve their negotiation tactics.
"and there are a lot of people whose iq is real high you know their book smarts are good but the people smarts aren't good and they tend to love mirroring because it's the least amount of effort with t..."
Closing Thoughts and Future Questions
In the closing segment, Voss reflects on the impact of his book 'Never Split the Difference' and its relevance beyond professional negotiations. He shares a personal anecdote about family dynamics and the ongoing journey of improving communication and negotiation skills.
"lot of people through negotiations and you've got your book as well which we've talked about a bit which is never split the difference which has sold more than two million copies worldwide which is ju..."