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Ep.137 — René Girard and the Philosophy of Innovation w/ Johnathan Bi
52 segments available
[00:15:02]Ahead of the release of the next episode of his lecture series on René Girard, Johnathan Bi returns for his second appearance on the show. He and Jim discuss Girard, prestige, innovation, AI, and much more. Enjoy! Important Links: - Johnathan’s website - https://johnathanbi.com - Johnathan’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/johnathanbi - Johnathan’s lecture series with David Perell - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qu6vBebwwg - Our research note on Johnathan - https://substack.com/inbox/post/87143193 - Johnathan’s first appearance on the show - https://www.infiniteloopspodcast.com/johnathan-bi-girard-desire-and-modernity-ep116/ Show Notes: [00:01:02] - Main Podcast [00:03:22] - The Girardian notion of prestige [00:06:13] - What proof is there for mimesis? [00:15:02] - The difference between mimesis and status signalling [00:34:02] - Historical understandings of innovation [00:40:08] - A conversation between a pessimist and an optimist [00:52:05] - AI, progress and the panopticon [01:08:18] - Could we ban innovation? and more! Books Mentioned: - The Status Game: On Human Life and How to Play It; by Will Storr - The Alchemy of Finance; by George Soros - The Laws of Imitation; by Gabriel Tarde - When These Things Begin: Conversations with Michel Treguer; by René Girard - The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World; by David Deutsch - The Invention of Improvement: Information and Material Progress in Seventeenth-Century England; by Paul Slack - Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future; by Peter Thiel Disclaimer: Jim O'Shaughnessy is chairman and Co-Chief Investment Officer of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management, where Jamie Catherwood is an associate. All opinions expressed by Jim, Jamie and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.
Segments Timeline
The Nature of Human Desire
Johnathan Bi discusses the dual strands of human desire as outlined by René Girard, emphasizing the distinction between physical desire for objects and metaphysical desire for what those objects signify about oneself. He explains how our desires are influenced by societal models and the inherent need to fit in and stand out within a community.
"Alan Watts says that worry is an endlessly peeled onion drugsy's human desires as constituted by really two strands physical desire a desire for the object itself as well as metaphysical sorry the des..."
Understanding Prestige
In this segment, Johnathan Bi delves into the Girardian concept of prestige, tracing its etymology from Latin to French. He explains how prestige is tied to the desire for objects that symbolize status and the social dynamics that influence our perceptions of value and desirability.
"let's Dive Right In because as I said to you before we started to record like the prep time for you in particular this is a compliment so take it as one is like enormous because your lectures are fasc..."
The Role of Models in Desire
Johnathan Bi elaborates on how we adopt desires from models of superior being, such as celebrities or successful peers. He discusses the implications of this mimetic behavior and how it shapes our understanding of prestige and social standing.
"chance to see yet well so I think where we need to start off is maybe just a brief reminder of what we talked about last last podcast discussion will be very quick is that drugs use human desires as c..."
Mimesis and Its Proof
This segment explores the question of proof for Girard's theory of mimesis. Johnathan Bi argues for a broader understanding of evidence beyond scientific validation, suggesting that philosophical and empirical observations can support the validity of mimetic theory.
"more mundane just a co-worker who's been doing really well in the company or maybe in old times it was a priest or a Divine figure or could be even a fictional hero like Achilles endurance intuition i..."
The Planted Axiom in Logic
Johnathan Bi introduces the concept of a planted axiom in logic, drawing parallels to Girard's hypothesis. He discusses how accepting a foundational assumption can lead to a deeper understanding of complex social phenomena.
"that that is fascinating I immediately thought of the George box quote or Maxim that all models are wrong and some are useful and that's kind of the way I approach life it's one of the very interested..."
The Value of Mimesis
In this segment, Johnathan Bi reflects on the contemporary interest in mimetic theory, addressing critiques and affirming its relevance. He emphasizes that the popularity of the theory does not diminish its value in understanding human behavior.
"I did one one of the first things you learn about is the planted Axiom because they'll say this is applicable in many it's not just logic it's applicable across many human endeavors where someone basi..."
Mirror Neurons and Imitation
Johnathan Bi discusses the role of mirror neurons in human behavior and how they relate to mimetic theory. He highlights the evolutionary significance of imitation and its implications for understanding social dynamics.
"it which is exactly what my medic Theory says so anyways I obviously there's ways to strengthen that critique as being a bit I was jesting a bit there but just thought I'd you know as a logician mysel..."
Status Seeking and Evolution
This segment examines the concept of status seeking through the lens of evolution. Johnathan Bi connects the need to fit into social groups with survival instincts, illustrating how these dynamics have shaped human behavior over time.
"you know let's do an experiment on this Society let's see if they kill anyone and let's say they assign any unreserved blame most of drawn's proof and I think much there's a great species a philosophi..."
Beyond Status: A Deeper Understanding
Johnathan Bi argues that mimetic theory offers a more profound understanding of human behavior than mere status seeking. He discusses how Girard's insights can explain complex social interactions and the underlying motivations driving them.
"of use from understanding memetic Behavior Etc like Wittgenstein I think don't look for meanings look for use and so I keep dipping back into and watching lectures like yours which are really great an..."
Intersections of Thought
In the concluding segment, Johnathan Bi reflects on the connections between Girard's theories and other philosophical frameworks, including Buddhism. He shares insights from his studies and the potential for interdisciplinary dialogue to enrich our understanding of human behavior.
"right right well there's so much there's you know sorosis who I've been meaning to explore more theory of reflexivity outcoming Finance one way to read draw the fascinating way is an attack on economi..."
Normative Values and Social Theory
In this segment, Bi contrasts normative and descriptive values, emphasizing that normative values are influenced by societal approval. He critiques modern philosophical assumptions about individuality, suggesting that our desires and reasoning are often shaped by external social forces rather than being purely individual.
"I would argue memetic Theory actually goes deeper than this sort of mirror sort of status signaling while being able to explain all the interesting parts of this type of Outlook but let me explain fir..."
The Crisis of Individuality
Bi discusses the implications of Girard's theory on the concept of individuality in modern society. He argues that the foundations of Western political theory, which emphasize individual agency and reason, are challenged by Girard's view that individuals are deeply influenced by social dynamics and collective desires.
"one answer is reason right and that's the Enlightenment and that's why we have Mill that's why we have elections right that the individual can through his or her own power reason what is the good with..."
Gabriel Tarde's Influence
Johnathan Bi introduces Gabriel Tarde's ideas on imitation and innovation, highlighting Tarde's assertion that true innovators are a small percentage of the population. He discusses Tarde's three-step process of innovation, imitation, and opposition, setting the stage for a deeper exploration of Girard's contributions to the understanding of social dynamics.
"West which is the individual now you can take this in either direction right it could be Progressive right this is also a Marxist segalian critique or it can take it reactionary a sort of an initi and..."
The Cycle of Innovation
Bi elaborates on Tarde's theory of imitation, explaining how innovation leads to societal trends and subsequent opposition. He connects these ideas to Girard's framework, suggesting that innovation is often misunderstood and that the relationship between innovators and imitators is more complex than it appears.
"I want to get your read on he says it's basically the laws of imitation follow sort of three things right the first is innovation um now he maintains in the book that in true innovators in society are..."
Taboo Desires and Mediators
In this segment, Bi raises questions about taboo desires in the context of Girard's theory. He discusses how individuals with suppressed desires navigate their social environments and the role of mediators in shaping their experiences, challenging the notion of individual agency in the face of societal norms.
"answer is plumiere basically says yes this is a fascinating Theory however how does he explain taboo desires you mentioned the various sexuality groups that are now emergent and his specific question ..."
The Political Implications of Girard
Bi reflects on the political implications of Girard's ideas, suggesting that while Girard critiques modern political theory, he also offers a framework that can support liberal democracy. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the interplay between individual desires and societal influences in shaping political discourse.
"what do you think I know I dropped a lot on you though yeah it's fascinating a few things the first thing I'll say is I don't want to paint Gerard as a political radical in either hyper Progressive or..."
Innovation as Mastery
Johnathan Bi discusses Girard's perspective on innovation, arguing that true innovation requires mastery of past achievements. He warns against idolizing the past while also critiquing the superficial pursuit of novelty, emphasizing the need for a balanced approach to innovation that respects historical context.
"as you probably can guess he thinks that Innovation and imitation are actually connected in some deep and interesting way but I'll put that as a teacher out there because I want to get your most meaty..."
The Duality of Innovation
Johnathan Bi discusses the historical tension between innovation and tradition, highlighting how different cultures perceive innovation. He contrasts the Protestant and Catholic views on innovation, illustrating how the past is often idolized while new ideas are sometimes seen as threats. This segment explores the philosophical implications of innovation and the need for balance between respecting tradition and embracing change.
"king against the innovators or something like that because we think Innovation is a great thing and what's really funny is that the Protestants then said no F you're the innovators the Catholics you'r..."
Mastery Before Innovation
In this segment, Bi emphasizes the importance of mastery in the process of innovation. He argues that true innovation requires a deep understanding of existing knowledge and practices, using examples like Goethe and Jack Ma to illustrate how imitation can lead to genuine innovation. The discussion highlights the necessity of learning from the past while not being constrained by it.
"right the confucians what does Confucius teach us restore the rituals of the job right it's a looking back so that that is clearly one sort of way to pervert from Innovation okay and that's why he say..."
The Fear of Imitators
Johnathan Bi explores the fear that established innovators have towards imitators who rise to become innovators themselves. He discusses how this fear stems from a misunderstanding of the relationship between imitation and innovation, arguing that innovation often builds on previous work. This segment delves into the dynamics of creativity and the evolution of ideas in society.
"this happened with the English I believe the Germans or maybe the other way around and then happened with America you look at what the continent said about America in the 20 and early 20th 19th centur..."
The Modern Innovation Paradox
Bi reflects on the current state of innovation in modern society, suggesting that we may have devalued true innovation by favoring novelty for its own sake. He discusses how this trend can lead to stagnation in meaningful advancements. This segment raises critical questions about the nature of progress and the societal implications of our relationship with innovation.
"and so Gerard actually sees this is the last comment I'll make in in modernity where innovation has become so proliferated he actually thinks that right now is the pull that we've swung to the reason ..."
Rituals vs. Innovation
In this thought-provoking segment, Bi draws parallels between the teachings of Lao Tzu and the Confucian emphasis on rituals. He argues that an overemphasis on rituals can signify societal decay rather than health. This discussion invites listeners to consider how cultural practices influence our capacity for innovation and progress.
"for its own to say the sort of movie version of this that always gets me is Marlon Brando Wild Ones I think a movie in the 50s where he plays this really cool rebellious I think motorbike gang leader ..."
The Limits of Human Prognostication
Bi discusses the limitations of human foresight regarding future innovations, referencing David Deutsch's insights on the unpredictability of knowledge. He emphasizes that our inability to predict future advancements can lead to societal stagnation. This segment challenges listeners to rethink how we approach innovation and the expectations we place on progress.
"it to you because that's immediately what I think of I think of Lao Tzu answering Confucius there or saying nobody you the rituals that you are so desirous of that's a sign of stasis and Decay that is..."
Historical Perspectives on Innovation
This segment provides a historical overview of how innovation has been perceived across different eras. Bi categorizes humanity's understanding of innovation into three periods, highlighting the negative connotations associated with innovation in antiquity and the gradual shift towards a more positive view in modern times. This exploration sheds light on the evolving relationship between society and innovation.
"knowledge will occur so that leads often to you'll see Societies in stasis and then my final thing is a question again to you which is you know did Gerard like Miss inflection points and by that I mea..."
Innovation in Antiquity
Bi delves into the ancient perspectives on innovation, noting that it was often viewed negatively. He discusses how figures like Plato and Aristotle regarded innovation with skepticism, seeing it as a potential threat to societal stability. This segment highlights the historical context that shaped our current understanding of innovation.
"well as I said I've been studying the intellectual history of innovation in my spare time ever since I got the invitation to lecture on it and as I mentioned before I think you can basically break up ..."
The Reformation's Impact on Innovation
In this segment, Bi examines how the Protestant Reformation influenced perceptions of innovation, associating it with heresy and political upheaval. He discusses how this historical context contributed to a negative view of innovation that persisted for centuries. This analysis provides insight into the complex interplay between religion, politics, and innovation.
"period so let me just give you a super brief overview in this sort of we'll call it the in antiquity the dominant view of innovation was that it was bad that it probably shouldn't be done probably una..."
The Rehabilitation of Innovation
Bi discusses the gradual rehabilitation of the concept of innovation in modern times, particularly through utilitarian perspectives. He highlights how societal views shifted from seeing innovation as a threat to embracing it as a necessary component of progress. This segment reflects on the philosophical changes that have shaped our current understanding of innovation.
"rescuing something old and then rejuvenating Society so as you can tell but they're still not really positive about this idea of innovation and most of the innovation in this Antiquity appears period ..."
The Dark Ages and Stasis
In this segment, Bi critiques the notion of progress during the Dark Ages, suggesting that it was a period of stagnation. He references economic perspectives on historical income levels to illustrate the lack of material progress during this time. This discussion invites listeners to consider the implications of historical stasis on our understanding of innovation.
"to become rehabilitated by Bentham the utilitarians once you think about things in terms of utility there's a natural idea of trying to maximize it which you know Innovations are required to do that o..."
The Triviality of Progress
Bi plays devil's advocate regarding the modern obsession with progress, questioning whether our relentless pursuit of improvement leads to meaningful advancements. He reflects on the trivial nature of some contemporary innovations and critiques the societal focus on constant self-improvement. This segment challenges listeners to reconsider the value of progress in their lives.
"find too much of anything good there we're going to find stasis we're going to find lack of any material progress I seem to recall an economist so probably wrong my degree is in economics saying that ..."
The Paradox of Progress
In this segment, the discussion revolves around the peculiar nature of innovation and progress in the 21st century. The speaker critiques the relentless pursuit of improvement, suggesting that it often leads to trivial advancements rather than meaningful change. They reference historical perspectives on improvement, emphasizing how the original concept was tied to tangible benefits like agricultural yield, contrasting it with today's obsession with minor technological upgrades.
"for as opposed to against but I'm going to root against a thousand years of Darkness yeah let me play a devil's advocate here obviously I'm in the 21st century and in the tech sector so as I can't dis..."
The Ethics of Innovation
This segment delves into the ethical implications of innovation, questioning whether the drive for progress is rooted in dissatisfaction with current lives. The speaker draws on critiques of Christianity and the human tendency to project ideals into the future, suggesting that this focus on progress can trivialize the present. They highlight the societal obsession with material goods and the superficial excitement surrounding new technology releases, like the latest iPhone.
"and they're like that makes sense it's getting a bit more crops from your plot of land finding a way to juice up your rents and then all the intuitions from this concept of improvements these marginal..."
Optimism vs. Pessimism in Innovation
In this engaging exchange, the conversation shifts to the contrasting perspectives of optimism and pessimism regarding innovation. The speaker reflects on the historical context of their grandfather's life, illustrating the vast improvements in quality of life due to innovation. They argue that while challenges persist, the overall trajectory of human progress has been largely positive, setting the stage for a deeper exploration of the balance between optimism and caution in the face of future technological advancements.
"it injects a sort of the triviality into the world right I think about it and I was this too it's just like you're an economist I don't feel bad about critiquing it think about all those people waitin..."
The Dangers of Unchecked Innovation
This segment addresses the potential dangers of unchecked innovation, particularly in the context of AI and biotechnology. The speaker raises concerns about humanity's ability to manage powerful technologies responsibly, referencing historical examples of catastrophic outcomes. They emphasize the need for a nuanced understanding of innovation, advocating for a cautious approach that acknowledges both the benefits and risks associated with new developments.
"the clear potential for massive apocalyptic danger here you know climate change is man-made the amount of deaths in World War one and World War II I don't see you know biotech will enable us to potent..."
The Role of Optimism in Progress
Continuing the dialogue, the speaker discusses the role of optimism in driving progress, suggesting that while problems are inevitable, they can lead to solutions over time. They highlight the importance of rational optimism, distinguishing it from naive optimism, and argue that the accumulation of knowledge over time equips humanity to tackle future challenges more effectively. This segment underscores the belief that despite the complexities of modern life, the advancements made are significant and beneficial.
"right yeah he was born in 1885 he died in 1973. what he saw I would submit to you was endless and mostly positive Innovation I I personally don't know about you but if I had access to a time machine I..."
Historical Perspectives on Quality of Life
In this reflective segment, the speaker compares modern life to historical periods, particularly post-Black Plague Europe, where labor shortages empowered workers. They express gratitude for contemporary advancements while contemplating the complexities of historical living conditions. This discussion invites listeners to appreciate the progress made while recognizing the nuances of past societies and their challenges.
"become more serious but that's only because we will have solved some of the less serious ones going forward so problems are always with us our perception is that problems are always with us and so jus..."
The Paradox of Human Agency
This segment explores the paradox of human agency in the context of innovation and technology. The speaker discusses the tendency of modern individuals to overestimate their control over outcomes, drawing parallels to ancient philosophical views on fate. They question whether humanity's advancements truly empower individuals or if they merely create new challenges that must be navigated, emphasizing the need for humility in the face of technological progress.
"I mean I feel very I'm very fortunate in my position in modernity so I wouldn't change that now would I trade it to become a Aristocrat in in Chinese Antiquity that's a more serious question but I don..."
Navigating the Future of Technology
In this concluding segment, the conversation shifts to the future of technology and the importance of open-source innovation. The speaker argues that cognitive diversity and collaborative efforts are essential for addressing the challenges posed by powerful technologies. They highlight the potential for positive outcomes when innovation is approached with transparency and inclusivity, advocating for a balanced perspective on the role of technology in shaping humanity's future.
"lot of Antiquities concerns is the inability for man to for example get access to truth right from the Tree of Good and Evil though shall not eat Oedipus right he wanted to tempt fate in some sense I ..."
The Panopticon: A Double-Edged Sword
In this segment, the discussion revolves around the concept of the Panopticon, originally envisioned as a progressive prison design meant to improve conditions for inmates. However, it highlights the unintended consequences of constant surveillance, leading to a loss of agency and autonomy for individuals. The conversation emphasizes the psychological impact of being watched and the dangers of a system where a few make decisions for the many.
"center of a circular prison and into this Tower you cannot see the prisoners all of the prisoners don't face out they don't see the landscape they look in and all they see is the panopticon and under ..."
Open Source Innovation vs. Control
Johnathan Bi discusses the importance of open-source innovation as a counter to the oppressive nature of the Panopticon. He argues that cognitive diversity is crucial for creativity and innovation, citing the Cambrian explosion of ideas that followed the release of their AI model. This segment underscores the need for collaborative efforts in technology to foster progress rather than stasis.
"an Opticon right so if we go the closed route we have a very few in a panopticon making decisions for the very many and I think that's a very bad outcome which is one of the reasons why I invested in ..."
AI's Role in Exploring New Frontiers
The conversation shifts to the potential of AI to explore areas of knowledge that are currently beyond human reach. Johnathan expresses optimism about AI's ability to uncover new information and insights, particularly in relation to René Girard's theories. This segment highlights the transformative power of AI in enhancing human understanding and creativity.
"so on that particular question I think that the tools that AI makes possible for example the ability to further interrogate liminal spaces where human Minds can't go I think we are going to find an en..."
The Inevitable Progress of Science
In this segment, the discussion touches on the unstoppable nature of scientific advancement. Johnathan argues that halting innovation is not feasible, as progress will continue regardless of individual or national efforts to resist it. He uses the metaphor of skiing down a double black run to illustrate the necessity of embracing movement and change in the face of technological evolution.
"analogy here would be something like we're beginner skiers and we're on a double double black run that actually happened to me that actually happened to me as a beginner and the as the stasis guy just..."
Balancing Optimism and Caution in AI
Johnathan and Jim explore the duality of optimism and caution in the realm of AI development. They discuss the importance of acknowledging potential risks while also fostering a hopeful outlook on technological advancements. This segment emphasizes the need for a balanced perspective to navigate the complexities of innovation.
"stop the unending advance of science if you stop in one nation another Nation will take the Baton and that Nation will become more powerful more dominant so unless you plan on nuking the world yoursel..."
Learning from History: The Fire Analogy
The analogy of fire is used to illustrate the dual nature of technological advancements. Johnathan explains that while fire brought significant benefits to humanity, it also posed great dangers. This segment discusses the importance of creating safeguards and regulations to manage the risks associated with new technologies, rather than attempting to ban them outright.
"easy to identify problems that we already know about right for example The Fakes and what they can do to The credibility of any number of people who could be destroyed by a big video of them saying so..."
Combatting Deep Fakes: A Call to Action
Johnathan outlines a proactive approach to addressing the challenges posed by deep fakes. He announces a competition with a significant prize aimed at developing effective detection methods for deep fakes. This segment highlights the ongoing battle between technological advancements and the need for ethical safeguards in the digital landscape.
"speaking of The Fakes staying on that theme for a moment one of the things we're doing is we are funding a contest stability AI is putting up a hundred thousand dollar Bounty and O'Shaughnessy Venture..."
Understanding Qualia and Consciousness
The discussion delves into the philosophical concept of qualia and its implications for artificial intelligence. Johnathan argues that without a clear understanding of qualia, programming sentient AI remains a distant goal. This segment emphasizes the complexities of consciousness and the challenges faced in the pursuit of advanced AI.
"have it for free and then we're going to continue to iterate then we're going to continue to try to make it better because our adversaries are going to make the adversarial model better too right righ..."
The Misconceptions of AI Fear
In this segment, Johnathan addresses common fears surrounding AI, particularly the misconceptions about sentient AI as portrayed in popular media. He argues that the real concerns lie in the misuse of technology rather than the technology itself. This discussion encourages a more nuanced understanding of AI's potential and limitations.
"dour pretty comes into the restaurant where the rats are the chefs right and they make him some ratitude and it's in the scene where he takes his first bite of the Ratatouille because what the animato..."
The Possibility of Banning Innovation
The conversation concludes with a provocative question: Can we ban certain types of innovation? Johnathan reflects on historical examples of unilateral agreements to halt research in dangerous areas, such as biochemical weaponry. This segment explores the ethical implications of restricting innovation and the challenges of navigating technological progress responsibly.
"numbering 8 billion that I know of maybe there are some lurkers from other places in the Galaxy I don't know but that all sentient creatures believe and that create your Bates reality that creates you..."
The Dangers of Social Consensus
This segment delves into the historical example of Ignaz Semmelweis, who advocated for handwashing in medical practices. Johnathan Bi illustrates how societal beliefs can hinder progress and lead to disastrous outcomes when empirical evidence is ignored. The discussion emphasizes the risks of following social consensus without questioning its validity, particularly in the context of health and safety.
"championing that that mentality but I am saying if one does believe that we are able to stop Explorations in certain technological areas perhaps for certain areas and I think most people agree that bi..."
The Tragedy of Ignored Evidence
Continuing the story of Semmelweis, Johnathan Bi highlights how the rejection of his handwashing practices led to increased mortality rates among women in childbirth. This segment underscores the tragic consequences of disregarding scientific evidence due to societal norms and the importance of embracing new ideas for the sake of progress.
"right yeah exactly exactly nudge say no more but it also made me think about the idea of the inability to prophesize to let me give you an example a historical example under the rubric of we're going ..."
The Challenge of Banning Ideas
Johnathan Bi reflects on the futility of banning ideas and innovations, arguing that such attempts often lead to stagnation rather than progress. He emphasizes that true advancement requires confronting challenges head-on rather than avoiding them, reinforcing the notion that innovation cannot be easily suppressed.
"belief is pointed towards does that make sense and I know all about that and I applaud it I think it was actually something that we could have used for useful very useful yeah from our past yeah and f..."
The Importance of Empirical Evidence
In this segment, Johnathan Bi discusses the critical role of empirical evidence in shaping medical practices and societal beliefs. He recounts how Semmelweis's meticulous record-keeping demonstrated the effectiveness of handwashing, yet societal pressures led to its dismissal. This highlights the need for a commitment to evidence-based practices in all fields.
"hominin yeah let's keep it on his intuition which was born from observation so he noticed that the one thing that distinguished other than their sex between the male doctor and the female Midwife was ..."
Incepting New Ideas for Humanity
As the conversation wraps up, Johnathan Bi is posed with a thought-provoking challenge: if he could implant two ideas in the minds of all people, what would they be? This segment captures his reflections on societal values and the potential for re-evaluating norms, offering a glimpse into his vision for a more thoughtful and innovative future.
"influences the uh a very mimetic influence on the uh very deadly mimetic influence on the other women so example white says okay that's an interesting observation so what does summer wise do he has th..."