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Mercado Libre: 18k engineers, 30k deploys a day, & their own fleet of planes | Sebastian Barrios
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Sebastian Barrios was the longtime head of product and engineering at Mercado Libre, the largest company in Latin America—valued at over $100 billion and home to more than 100,000 employees. There, he led a team of more than 18,000 engineers across 18 countries and oversaw an astonishing 30,000 code deployments a day. Before Mercado Libre, he founded multiple startups, including a ridesharing company that competed directly with Uber in Latin America. And at just 17, he got a personal phone call from Steve Jobs asking him to take his app off the App Store. Today, Sebastian is the SVP of Engineering at Roblox. *What you’ll learn:* 1. Why Mercado Libre operates with 95% fewer PMs than typical tech companies (and how it actually works) 2. How to maintain product quality with 30,000 daily deployments and distributed ownership 3. The weekly email system Sebastian uses to maintain alignment with leadership 4. How to build a culture of radical candor and direct feedback in a traditionally hierarchical region 5. The counterintuitive approach to product reviews that keeps 18,000 engineers aligned 6. How to evaluate hype cycles (crypto, AI) pragmatically while staying innovative *Transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-mercado-libre-sebastian-barrios *Brought to you by:* Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app: http://merge.dev/lenny Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business: https://www.linkedin.com/podlenny *Where to find Sebastian Barrios:* • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zebas/ *Where to find Lenny:* • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ *In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Introduction to Sebastian Barrios and Mercado Libre (05:03) Mercado Libre’s scale and unique ways of operating (14:48) AI’s impact on operations (19:19) Empowering teams and reducing fear of failure (34:20) The importance of radical candor (38:26) Weekly updates (41:03) Avoiding hype cycles (44:24) When Steve Jobs personally called 17-year-old Sebastian (49:00) Building successful app businesses (55:33) Unique personal habits (01:04:00) Raising independent children (01:07:15) Lightning round and final thoughts *Referenced:* • Mercado Libre: https://www.mercadolibre.com/ • Claude: https://claude.ai/ • Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/ • Nvidia: https://www.nvidia.com/ • TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/ • Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/ • Uber: https://www.uber.com/ • OpenAI: https://openai.com/ • Marcos Galperin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcosgalperin/ • Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/ • Windsurf: https://windsurf.com/ • Which companies produce the best product managers: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/which-companies-produce-the-best • Which companies accelerate PM careers most: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/which-companies-accelerate-your-pm • How Revolut trains world-class product managers: The “local CEO” model, raw intellect over experience, and a cultural obsession with building wow products | Dmitry Zlokazov (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-revolut-trains-world-class-product-managers • Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/ • Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/ • Radical Candor: From theory to practice with author Kim Scott: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/radical-candor-from-theory-to-practice • Managing up: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/managing-up • Steve Jobs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs • Tobi Lütke’s leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook • Everything Everywhere All at Once: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6710474/ • Dune on Max: https://www.max.com/movies/dune/e7dc7b3a-a494-4ef1-8107-f4308aa6bbf7 • Bluey on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/browse/entity-fa6973b9-e7cf-49fb-81a2-d4908e4bf694 • Mentava: https://www.mentava.com/ • Matt Bateman’s website: https://mattbateman.xyz/ • Beast Academy: https://beastacademy.com/ • David protein bars: https://davidprotein.com/ • Marc Andreessen on X: https://x.com/pmarca *Recommended books:* • Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509 • High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884/ • The Odyssey: https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Homer/dp/0140268863 ...References continued at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-mercado-libre-sebastian-barrios _Production and marketing by https://penname.co/._ _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com._ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
The Day Steve Jobs Called
Sebastian Barrios recounts the moment he received a call from Steve Jobs at just 17 years old, informing him that his app would be removed from the App Store due to a new policy. This pivotal moment not only changed his app's trajectory but also highlighted the evolving nature of app store regulations.
"Steve Jobs called you one day. I'm walking in the street and and I get a phone and a blocked number. I was super young, by the way, at the time. I think I was like 16. Pick up. I said, "Well uh, hi, i..."
Mercado Libre's Scale and Operations
Sebastian shares insights into Mercado Libre's impressive scale, overseeing 18,000 developers and achieving 30,000 code deployments daily. He emphasizes the company's unique operational model, which integrates engineering and product roles, blurring the lines between the two.
"like 18,000 developers. We do around 30,000 deployments per day. We deliver over 5 million packages per day. You're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product. It's h..."
The Spy Training Philosophy
Sebastian discusses his upbringing, where his mother trained him and his siblings to be independent problem solvers, likening their experiences to being trained like spies. This philosophy has shaped his approach to challenges in both personal and professional settings.
"as a human morning routine. We were raised in a very intensely independent way. My mother mainly the analogy that she used is that she wanted to train us like spies. She would drop us in the middle of..."
Understanding Mercado Libre
Sebastian provides a brief overview of Mercado Libre, describing it as a vertically integrated e-commerce marketplace with its own distribution network, including trucks and planes. He highlights the company's dual focus on e-commerce and fintech, showcasing its vast ecosystem.
"the biggest and most interesting company that you have never heard of. And Sebus might also be the most interesting product leader that you've never heard of. Marcato Libre is currently the most valua..."
Impressive Delivery Statistics
Sebastian shares staggering statistics about Mercado Libre's operations, including delivering over 5 million packages daily and plans to expand its workforce to over 100,000 employees. He emphasizes the company's extensive reach across Latin America.
"company owns their own trucks and planes. They deliver over 5 million packages a day. At one point, eBay tried to acquire them. They ended up acquiring PayPal instead. Now they are larger than both eB..."
The Unique Team Structure
Sebastian explains Mercado Libre's unique team structure, where the distinction between engineering and product roles is minimized. He notes that less than 1,000 out of 18,000 developers hold product manager titles, fostering a collaborative environment focused on problem-solving.
"result. A huge thank you to Christopher Lazarus, Oscar Mullen, and Farhan Thou for suggesting topics for this conversation. If you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your fa..."
Hiring for Product and Engineering
Sebastian discusses the hiring process at Mercado Libre, emphasizing the importance of technical skills over traditional product management experience. He explains how this approach allows engineers to take on product responsibilities, leading to better alignment with user needs.
"Sebastian Barios. This episode is brought to you by Merge. Product leaders, yes, like you cringe when they hear the word integration. They're not fun for you to scope, build launch, or maintain. And i..."
The Role of Leadership in Culture
Sebastian highlights the role of technical leadership in maintaining a culture that prioritizes user experience over immediate revenue. He shares how discussions at the leadership level focus on user experience, ensuring that product development aligns with user needs.
"access their customers accounting data to reconcile bill payments, file storage data to create searchable databases and their product or HRIS data to autoprovision and deprovision access for their cus..."
AI's Impact on Operations
Sebastian addresses the impact of AI on Mercado Libre's operations, explaining how it enhances both engineering and product roles. He emphasizes that AI accelerates capabilities without creating competition between product and engineering teams.
"gift card. That's merge.dev/lenny. This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast. Now you can assess ris..."
User Experience Over Revenue
Sebastian Barrios emphasizes the importance of prioritizing user experience over immediate revenue metrics at Mercado Libre. He explains how the leadership team focuses on understanding user flows and experiences, which ultimately leads to long-term revenue growth. This approach fosters a culture that values user satisfaction as a key driver of business success.
"for something a lot more useful and these are literally conversations at the at the sea level no asking okay how does this work for users know when when you present a feature And here I'm going to ste..."
AI's Role in Engineering and Product Management
In this segment, Barrios discusses how AI is transforming the roles of engineers and product managers at Mercado Libre. He highlights the collaborative environment where product-oriented individuals can develop and demo their ideas, leveraging AI to enhance productivity and innovation without creating competition between roles.
"think the the the the top down version of that uh maintaining the the culture and being able to like select for the top of the top talent uh in in a whole region, no in multiple countries. I think it'..."
Internal Platforms and AI Integration
Sebastian explains Mercado Libre's internal development platform, Verie, which simplifies the complexities of AI integration. He describes how this platform allows teams to utilize existing code and microservices to create new features efficiently, showcasing the company's commitment to leveraging technology for rapid innovation.
"question because you probably always hear it from from the other side know like okay now people who are more product oriented are not going to need engineers as much. So for for for us the the the cha..."
Automated Feature Development with AI
Barrios shares insights on how AI is enabling automated feature development at Mercado Libre. He discusses the potential for AI to generate user interfaces and applications based on existing functionalities, illustrating a future where developers can focus on high-level tasks while AI handles the intricacies of coding.
"say we're we're we're taking it even further. We always like to think in in terms of platforms. Uh it's one of the reasons why we've been able to scale the team so much. We have a great internal devel..."
Empowering Teams with Independence
In this segment, Barrios highlights the culture of independence at Mercado Libre, where teams are encouraged to take risks and innovate without strict oversight. He explains the balance between providing a clear vision and allowing teams the freedom to explore solutions that best serve users, fostering a dynamic and responsive work environment.
"experimental obviously uh but it's happening and and it's just going to accelerate as the the the models get better. So we literally have things that are taking existing code. So you you it's not like..."
Encouraging Risk-Taking and Learning from Failure
Sebastian discusses how Mercado Libre empowers its teams to embrace failure as a learning opportunity. He emphasizes that while quality is crucial, the company encourages experimentation and innovation, allowing teams to explore new ideas without the fear of punitive consequences for unsuccessful outcomes.
"automated uh UI. Wow. Okay. I'm going to try to resist just making every conversation about AI. So, let's leave that aside and maybe we'll come back to it, but let's zoom out a little bit and I want t..."
High-Level Objectives and Team Autonomy
Barrios explains how Mercado Libre operates without traditional OKRs, instead focusing on high-level objectives that guide teams. This approach allows for greater autonomy and adaptability in a rapidly changing market, enabling teams to align their efforts with the company's vision while pursuing innovative solutions.
"and I think in in a market that's changing so much even before AI know this is a extremely competitive market with very dynamic regulations and in multiple countries. So it's it's it's hard to say lik..."
Observing Users for Better Insights
In this segment, Barrios shares the importance of observing users rather than solely relying on their feedback. He explains how direct observation during user research sessions can reveal valuable insights that challenge assumptions, leading to more effective product design and user satisfaction.
"think that's uh that's that's probably the main one. Uh we also talked about putting users before revenue. No, I think that's another uh big one that that that we've liked. Uh and there's another tric..."
Design Reviews and Leadership Feedback
Sebastian discusses the role of design and product reviews in maintaining alignment across teams at Mercado Libre. He highlights the candid feedback culture among leadership, which allows for quick pivots and adjustments based on what is working or not, ensuring that the company remains agile and responsive to market needs.
"assumptions that that are being crushed before your eyes as as someone types in their email and uh their name in the same field because your field said email, name. So you could either have the email ..."
Rapid Deployment and Market Adaptability
Barrios reveals the impressive scale of Mercado Libre's operations, with 30,000 deployments per day. He explains how this rapid pace of change is essential for staying competitive in a dynamic market, allowing the company to adapt quickly to new challenges and opportunities.
"their feedback, always cordial uh and and uh uh a happy uh work environment but definitely on the side of of of being honest about what's working what's not working. Uh whether the the vision was mist..."
The Competitive Landscape in E-Commerce
In this segment, Barrios reflects on the competitive nature of the e-commerce market in Brazil. He discusses how the presence of both local and international players drives innovation and excellence, pushing Mercado Libre to continuously improve and deliver exceptional value to its users.
"dramatically. Um we again have many different businesses, many different competitors in in different businesses who operate at worldclass whether it's finance, whether it's uh e-commerce. Uh I would e..."
Building a Unique Path in Technology
Sebastian shares insights on the advantages of being a leading company in a region with great talent. He emphasizes the importance of setting a unique path in technology, highlighting how Mercado Libre is building innovative solutions that cater to the specific needs of its market.
"uh it pushes you to be better as well. This point you made earlier about the being the the top company in a market is really interesting. I was I was wondering if I wanted to come to this but I think ..."
Setting Your Own Path
In this segment, Barrios highlights the unique challenges and opportunities of building a tech company outside traditional hubs. He emphasizes that while it may be harder to recruit talent, being the best in your region can create a flywheel effect that attracts top talent and fosters innovation.
"think it applies to to many things and and you often also hear like well you're not in the Bay Area uh you're not in the the pinnacle of of and the capital of of technology. So how can you build amazi..."
Creating a Culture of Acceptable Failure
Barrios addresses the importance of fostering a culture where failure is acceptable. He explains how leadership can create an environment that encourages risk-taking and innovation, contrasting it with the fear of failure that often exists in corporate settings.
"are the only top company and I'm exaggerating a bit right there are great companies uh throughout the world and in Latin America and you have unicorns and there are outliers uh but the truth is you're..."
Living the Company Culture
Sebastian Barrios shares insights on how company culture is shaped by actions rather than words. He discusses the significance of leadership behavior in establishing norms around acceptable errors and how public recognition of risk-taking can reinforce a culture of innovation.
"started. Uh but I think just knowing that there's great talent everywhere and and that it is possible to attract them uh without being in a specific tech hub maybe even empower you know to like okay I..."
The Importance of Direct Feedback
In this segment, Barrios emphasizes the need for direct and honest feedback within teams. He discusses how radical candor can be particularly effective in Latin American cultures, where hierarchy often stifles open communication, and how fostering this honesty can lead to better performance.
"especially at at at ours? No, it's very clear that it's not what you write on the walls or what you put on on on your website. Uh from from what I've learned and what we've seen, it's something it's w..."
Weekly Updates for Alignment
Barrios explains his practice of sending weekly updates to maintain alignment within his team and with leadership. He shares how this simple practice helps track progress, identify challenges, and facilitate communication, ultimately enhancing team effectiveness.
"in that culture and also propagate it into their teams. That's also the way it scales uh in the in the organization. But it definitely starts with the the top management of the of the company and agai..."
Navigating Hype Cycles Pragmatically
Sebastian Barrios discusses his approach to emerging trends and hype cycles, such as crypto and AI. He emphasizes the importance of skepticism and thorough research to avoid falling into the trap of following trends without critical evaluation.
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Skepticism and Research in Innovation
In this segment, Barrios shares his personal experiences with cryptocurrency and the lessons learned from early investments. He highlights the value of deep research and critical thinking when evaluating new technologies and trends.
"sort of like cultural stereotypes that we are extremely aware of when we when we operate. Uh people are extremely polite in Latin America as well. I don't know if you if you're traveled, everyone will..."
Streamlining Communication with Weekly Updates
Sebastian Barrios discusses how Mercado Libre utilizes a weekly email system to streamline communication and maintain alignment among leadership. This approach reduces the need for lengthy discussions in meetings, allowing teams to focus on what’s relevant and effective in their operations.
"happening, new releases. Uh that also frees up a lot of time uh for example with uh with my CEO uh where like okay on the weekly meeting we don't have to talk about like those specific things or we ca..."
Navigating Hype Cycles with Pragmatism
Sebastian shares his pragmatic approach to emerging technologies like crypto and AI, emphasizing the importance of deep research and understanding fundamentals. He discusses how to avoid the pitfalls of hype cycles while recognizing the potential benefits of these technologies, particularly in regions with limited access to traditional financial systems.
"Okay. So, speaking of things that you did before other people, something else that came up a lot in chatting with folks that worked with you is they pointed out that you're really good at not falling ..."
The Day Steve Jobs Called Me
Sebastian recounts the memorable day when Steve Jobs personally called him to discuss his app that drained phone batteries. He shares the story of how this call led to the creation of a new App Store rule and reflects on the significance of that moment in his early career as a developer.
"also turn into AI or again the claims are that uh it will take over the the world and and and happy to talk about that. But just understanding the the uh the fundamentals of the technology that's bein..."
From App Developer to Entrepreneur
Sebastian explains how he developed a successful app that became the top-selling application in multiple countries. He shares the story of how this app not only helped him connect with his girlfriend but also launched his career in mobile app development, leading to the establishment of his own company.
"Steve. Uh quite the legend. That is an incredible story. First of all, I just love that Steve Jobs was calling random app developers himself founder, right? Like how did he have the time? I just love ..."
Competing with Uber: The Taxi Revolution
Sebastian discusses his experience in creating a taxi app that competed with Uber in Mexico City. He explains the challenges of building trust with users and how his innovative approach to connecting passengers with taxis led to rapid growth and success in a competitive market.
"a good business decision. So it cost $100, I think it still does, to to upload an app to the app store. So I thought, okay, I need to sell like around 100 copies. I mean, there are fees and whatnot, b..."
The Power of Water and Clarity
Sebastian discusses his unique lifestyle choices, including his decision to drink only water and avoid alcohol, coffee, and tea. He explains how this choice contributes to his mental clarity and control over his life, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a healthy relationship with one's mind and body.
"to scale and and work. Uh, that was a a fun experience. Oh man, you're just a well of fascinating stories. I love this kind of journey sharing of just like at 16, I think you built that app that Steve..."
Silence Over Sound: A Programmer's Preference
In this segment, Sebastian reveals his preference for programming in silence rather than listening to music, a choice influenced by his upbringing as the son of an orchestra conductor. He reflects on how this preference shapes his focus and productivity while coding.
"be in in that situation where I didn't have like control of of my destiny. And and I mean control, right? We don't have a lot of control on our destinies, but at least you know like physical control o..."
Navigating News and Information
Sebastian shares his approach to consuming news and media, highlighting his avoidance of traditional news outlets and social media. He discusses how he prefers to stay informed through selective sources, emphasizing the importance of being mindful about the information one consumes.
"know seems like extremely strange to to to a lot of programmers and and developers. Uh, and I think the reason for that one and also talking about the the interesting background is my my dad's an orch..."
The Impact of Overexposure to Bad News
In this thought-provoking segment, Sebastian reflects on the psychological effects of constant exposure to negative news. He argues that humans are not designed to process the overwhelming amount of global calamities and advocates for a more balanced approach to information consumption.
"that from like people that that I follow and sometimes I'll retweet articles and and I'll read them. Uh, I there was a a fun memory of of my childhood when we had a TV in the in the house and and my m..."
Curiosity as a Guiding Principle
Sebastian emphasizes the importance of following one's curiosity in both personal and professional life. He discusses how this principle has guided his career decisions and contributed to his success, suggesting that passion and curiosity lead to greater fulfillment and achievement.
"Absolutely. Right. Out of I can't imagine our brains were uh evolved into well, you know, you open your phone and you get like unlimited information about any single topic that that you want. Uh I thi..."
Training for Independence: A Unique Upbringing
Sebastian shares anecdotes from his unconventional upbringing, where his mother instilled a sense of independence and problem-solving skills. He describes experiences that shaped his ability to navigate challenges and develop agency, likening his childhood to a spy training regimen.
"that's uh worked very well. I had Toby Lutkkey on the podcast and we were talking talking about raising kids for a little bit and we chatted about what do you want your kid to learn most like what's t..."
The Unseen Success of Mercado Libre
In this segment, Sebastian discusses the growth and recognition of Mercado Libre, explaining why it remains less known in the U.S. despite its success. He highlights the company's performance and the increasing awareness of its impact in the tech industry.
"of of of the way I am and I approach uh different problems. Do you feel like she might have actually been training you to be a spy? Maybe we we also did a lot of uh skiing, biking, uh trekking and and..."
Book Recommendations for Growth
Sebastian shares his top book recommendations, including 'High Output Management' and 'The Odyssey.' He discusses the relevance of these books to management and personal development, emphasizing the importance of learning from historical narratives and practical insights.
"been doing. Absolutely. And with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? I'm ready. What are two or three books that you recommend most to..."
Innovative Learning Tools for Kids
Sebastian introduces Menava, a new reading program he used with his son, which he believes significantly enhances early reading skills. He discusses the importance of foundational skills in reading and recommends Beast Academy for math, emphasizing the value of quality educational tools for children.
"a lot because uh I like the the books. It's one of my favorite books. Uh but I do watch uh children's shows uh from time to time there. I'm sure someone has probably mentioned Bluey already. Uh but it..."
Healthy Living and Fitness Products
In this segment, Sebastian shares his favorite health products, including David protein bars, which he enjoys for their high-quality ingredients and protein content. He also discusses his passion for weightlifting and how it contributes to his overall well-being.
"Uh how old is he? So so he's uh five. Uh and it's actually designed for three four, five year olds. Uh, so I was probably late to to to the reading early bandwagon because that I haven't really uh see..."
Life Motto: Embracing Change
Sebastian shares his life motto about the malleability of the world, encouraging listeners to recognize their agency in shaping their lives. He references Steve Jobs and Mark Andreessen, emphasizing that individuals can create change and should not feel constrained by traditional norms.
"venturebacked company. I've haven't talked to the founders, but reach out. Uh, I would love to to meet you. You guys are doing something fun. Uh, so I think th those are the ones that come to mind. 3D..."
The Tatami Project: A Creative Endeavor
Sebastian recounts a childhood project where he transformed his room into a two-floor loft with a tatami area for meditation and training. He reflects on his love for hands-on projects and how his parents encouraged creativity and exploration, fostering a mindset of innovation.
"hearing is your mom's goal of instilling agency in new work. I would say so. Uh yes, I uh I have fun solving problems. Just finding your way home from the center of Mexico City worked. Final question...."
Connecting with Sebastian Barrios
In the closing segment, Sebastian discusses how listeners can connect with him online, particularly through LinkedIn. He emphasizes the collaborative nature of the tech industry and his willingness to help others, reinforcing the importance of networking and sharing knowledge.
"they were very open to us exploring and and making mistakes. I think going back even to to the start of our conversation on on on how to not get stuck uh as a big company as a as a big team you need t..."