All Segments
Ep.106 — Ben Hunt — Preserving the Physical Metaverse
51 segments available
Ben Hunt is the creator and primary author of Epsilon Theory, and co-founder and CIO at Second Foundation Partners. Epsilon Theory is a newsletter that examines markets through the lenses of game theory and history. Over 100,000 professional investors and allocators across 180 countries read Epsilon Theory for its fresh perspective and novel insights into market dynamics. You can follow Ben on Twitter at [https://twitter.com/EpsilonTheory](https://twitter.com/EpsilonTheory) and read Epsilon Theory here: [https://www.epsilontheory.com/](https://www.epsilontheory.com/) Show Notes: - Neurolinguistic hard reset - Ben’s days at Harvard - Why Klaus Schwab is a raccoon - Human beings are social animals - How language impacts and limits us - The cost of the Metaverse - How the nudging state is rewiring us - Does narrative follow price, or is it the inverse? - Traders respond to stories everyday - How technology can fight the nudging state. - NOAH: An ark of stories on the blockchain Books Mentioned: - The WEIRDest People in the World; by Joseph Henrich - How the Irish Saved Civilization; by Thomas Cahill
Segments Timeline
Infinite Loops and Resetting Thought
Jim O'Shaughnessy introduces the concept of 'infinite loops' in thinking, emphasizing the importance of resetting our perspectives to avoid cyclical reasoning. He discusses how the podcast aims to provide fresh insights through various lenses, including history and philosophy, to enhance both investment strategies and critical thinking.
"your brain has been stimulated right now is with your head they are that's right that's right and seeing becomes believing [Music] hi i'm jim o'shaughnessy and welcome to infinite loops sometimes we g..."
Meet Ben Hunt: Game Theory and Narrative
Jim welcomes Ben Hunt, founder of Epsilon Theory, highlighting his unique approach to analyzing markets through game theory and narrative. Ben's insights have attracted over 100,000 subscribers, and Jim expresses admiration for his work, setting the stage for a deeper discussion on market dynamics.
"this episode of infinite loops jim o'shaughnessy is chairman and co-chief investment officer of o'shaughnessy asset management where jamie catherwood is an associate all opinions expressed by jim jami..."
The Power of Provocative Language
Ben Hunt discusses his provocative Twitter catchphrase 'burn it down,' explaining its origins and the emotional response it evokes. He reflects on the use of shocking language as a tool for engagement and the cathartic effect it has on both him and his audience.
"theory as well as the second foundation partners harry selden chops i love harry selden i love it thank you for noting it jim thank you for noticing thank you i'm a huge fan of harry of harry sullivan..."
The Hard Reset: A Neurolinguistic Approach
Ben draws parallels between his use of provocative language and neurolinguistic programming techniques, referencing a recent episode of 'Billions.' He explains how shocking statements can serve as a 'hard reset' for audiences, prompting them to reconsider their perspectives.
"you caught me jim you caught me you know i'm really trying to do it less i really am wait but shall i tell you about it you want to yeah yeah i'm interested and and before you do i because what i thin..."
The Emotional Impact of Language
Ben reflects on the emotional weight of his language choices, particularly in response to significant events like Epstein's death. He discusses the balance between using strong language for impact and reserving it for moments that truly warrant such intensity.
"capital i t you know so so so making it that yeah so so it absolutely has that element and it was intended to shock it was also intended by my catchphrase right because it's twitter after all and you ..."
Harvard and the Pursuit of Knowledge
Ben shares a humorous anecdote about his experience at Harvard, illustrating the elitism often associated with prestigious institutions. He emphasizes the importance of narratives and archetypes in shaping our understanding of education and knowledge.
"sure and and i do think it requires that sort of invective that twitter the the modality of twitter is actually pretty well suited for oh yeah but i so yeah i appreciate you bringing it up that's the ..."
Entrepreneurial Spirit at Harvard
Ben recounts his entrepreneurial endeavors while at Harvard, particularly his initiative to create executive education programs. He highlights the financial dynamics between different schools within Harvard and the innovative strategies he employed to bridge gaps.
"used it in the there's you know you know their their gig it's 20 30 and you own nothing and you're happy oh double plus good guys double plus good right right it is that orwellian you know i knew klau..."
Klaus Schwab: The Raccoon of Education
Ben critiques Klaus Schwab's approach to executive education, likening him to a raccoon for his focus on profit. He discusses Schwab's ability to create a community around the World Economic Forum's programs, emphasizing the financial motivations behind educational initiatives.
"uh that said you know i was i was i was i've always had the entrepreneurial bug i know you have to jim and it's you know it's if you have it it's it is a bug right it's not a feature it's a bug we can..."
The Economics of Education
Ben concludes with insights into the financial realities of education, sharing how his own entrepreneurial efforts were ultimately curtailed by institutional politics. He reflects on the pervasive influence of money in educational systems and the implications for future generations.
"i can market it i can hire the business school professors which i did right so i would hire them to come give a talk yeah and i'll have it sponsored by the school of education uh i'll you know split t..."
The Business of Education
Hunt discusses the intersection of education and business, recounting how his executive education programs were shut down due to conflicts with Harvard's business school. He illustrates the financial motivations that often drive educational institutions, revealing the transactional nature of academia.
"uh so brilliant really klaus was about money from the word go it's the phrase i like to use i call him raccoons yeah i know i love him he's a raccoon for sure he's a raccoon he's a raccoon from the wo..."
The Power of Words and Narratives
In this segment, Ben Hunt delves into his lifelong exploration of the power of language and narratives. He connects his academic background in political science to the influence of words in shaping human behavior and societal structures, emphasizing how narratives can drive market dynamics.
"in the world economic forum it's all about the money yeah yeah just he just figured out this great gig he just griffed i'll call it a grift totally from the word go totally aggressed and like i'm sure..."
Humans as Social Animals
Hunt elaborates on the concept of humans as social animals, drawing parallels with E.O. Wilson's studies on ants. He discusses the characteristics that define social species and how language serves as a crucial tool for communication and social interaction among humans.
"good for that i'm so good for that so you know where i'd start jim is that i've spent my adulthood right my professional career trying to understand the power of words of narratives right this was thi..."
Language: Our Superpower and Achilles' Heel
Ben Hunt reflects on the dual nature of language as both a powerful tool for human expression and a potential means of control. He argues that while language enables creativity and new thoughts, it can also be manipulated by those in power to limit autonomy and critical thinking.
"species on earth are basically a giant termite right with opposable thumbs the ability to use fire yeah and language because that's the hallmark of the social animal in the technical sense of the word..."
The Role of Language in Religion
In this segment, Hunt discusses the significance of language in religious contexts, referencing historical figures like Saint Paul and their impact on communication. He highlights how the introduction of new words can lead to new ways of thinking and understanding the world.
"i saw one of your quotes saying that you know saint paul uh was was like communicating vis-a-vis the the metaverse and and and that really dovetailed very nicely with a concept that i had which was up..."
The Nudging State and Language Control
Hunt introduces the concept of the 'nudging state,' explaining how language is used as a tool for control by powerful entities. He contrasts this with the idea of enlightenment through language, suggesting that the manipulation of words can confine thought rather than liberate it.
"right that language is not just the means by which an idea is communicated yes it's that and words themselves the word it is what makes us human yeah you know the limits of my language are the limits ..."
The Impact of Language on Thought
Ben Hunt emphasizes the profound connection between language and thought, arguing that without the words to express certain ideas, individuals cannot conceive of them. He discusses the implications of this relationship for personal autonomy and societal discourse.
"the language right of 1984 the idea was to remove words from the language actually again my thought would be the the the real goal was to remove the ability to think differently using words right that..."
The Metaverse: A Language Landscape
Hunt redefines the concept of the metaverse, framing it as a realm of language rather than just a virtual space. He explores how language serves as humanity's superpower, enabling creativity and connection, while also posing risks of manipulation by those in power.
"with you well but yeah but this is the point right that if you don't have the words for something you can't think the thoughts for it that's it if you don't think that that's the core of it if you don..."
Stories as the Currency of Influence
In this concluding segment, Hunt discusses the importance of narratives in shaping perceptions and behaviors in markets and society. He argues that the stories we tell are often more influential than reality itself, highlighting the repetitive nature of these narratives in various contexts.
"much more so than the reality right much more so than touching the earth right it's can i tell you a story and if it's long enough and with the right words will you believe it so that's what i do jim ..."
Neuroscience of Storytelling
Hunt delves into the neuroscience behind storytelling, asserting that the narratives we consume can physically rewire our brains. He draws parallels between the metaverse and the macroverse, suggesting that both are real yet invisible constructs shaped by collective human thought.
"stories of a socrates an aristotle right a martin luther and a martin luther king jr it crowds those stories out and when i say crowded out this is kind of the the the hook of the story that i think g..."
Weaponizing Language
This segment highlights the manipulation of language and narratives by big tech and media to influence human behavior. Hunt discusses how these 'linguistic viruses' can alter our neural pathways, impacting our thoughts and actions in profound ways.
"the macroverse the world that you and i are sitting in it's as real as the microverse the world where viruses and microbes and bacteria live it's an invisible world like the microverse but it's no les..."
The Impact of Literacy on Brain Structure
Hunt examines the differences in brain structure between literate and illiterate individuals, emphasizing how literacy shapes our cognitive processes. He argues that the evolution of language and writing has significant implications for our social interactions and understanding of the world.
"structures you know the the facebook whistleblower i'm blanking on her name right now but you know she's talking about exactly this right where the content i'll pick on facebook for a while because th..."
Language as a Parasite
In this thought-provoking segment, Hunt likens language to a parasite that can domesticate human thought. He discusses the historical context of language manipulation and its implications for modern society, particularly in the age of digital communication.
"another area that i think has a huge impact on us as a species is this idea of aggregate social evolution the guy who wrote the book the weirdest people in the world makes a makes a really good case f..."
The Role of Smartphones in the Metaverse
Hunt discusses the pervasive influence of smartphones as gateways to the metaverse, highlighting how they expose us to constant narratives that can rewire our brains. He emphasizes the need to be aware of these influences in our daily lives.
"the learning to read borrowed from the part of our brain that normally goes for facial recognition which in a tribe environment that's pretty important um and and so ours yours and mine and anyone lis..."
The Addiction to Digital Narratives
This segment addresses the addictive nature of digital devices and their role in shaping our perceptions. Hunt argues that the constant exposure to curated narratives can lead to a form of cognitive domestication, limiting our capacity for independent thought.
"what what it means is that i i think of language frankly you can think of it as as like a parasite right it's like a virus right literally like a like like a virus and it does kind of or a symbiote ma..."
Narrative and Market Dynamics
Hunt explores the relationship between narrative and market dynamics, asserting that price movements often precede narrative explanations. He provides examples from his experience as a quant, illustrating how market behavior can be driven by underlying factors that narratives later attempt to explain.
"though jim and i'm gonna you know hold it up so you can see is my little portable dopamine machine yeah right right the the the smartphones the devices that we are all i mean this word literally addic..."
The Why Behind Market Movements
In this segment, Hunt emphasizes the human need for causality in market movements. He discusses how narratives are constructed post-factum to explain price changes, highlighting the psychological aspects of trading and decision-making.
"and the linguistic viruses that come out from the better verse again i mean it's in a physical sense it physically rewires our neurons and the second is it's a intensive effort by big tech big politic..."
Confabulation and Unreliable Narratives
Hunt delves into the concept of confabulation, where individuals create false narratives to explain their actions. He discusses the implications of this phenomenon for understanding human behavior and decision-making, particularly in the context of market dynamics.
"possible i want to use base rates i want to do all of that kind of stuff and and one of one of the things that emerges from this research is that narrative follows price not the other way around at le..."
Creating Causality in Perception
This segment examines how humans instinctively create causality and narratives, even when sensory perceptions contradict them. Hunt highlights the inherent tendency to construct stories that make sense of our experiences, reinforcing the idea that we are often unreliable narrators.
"basically and that they were cheap and and the story didn't catch up for many many months so how do you square that with the idea that perhaps the inverse which is narrative causes price so i'll tell ..."
The Power of Storytelling
Ben Hunt discusses the scientific power of storytelling, referencing research that shows how humans are often unreliable narrators. He explains how individuals, even those with split brains, create stories to justify their actions, highlighting our innate tendency to confabulate and the implications this has for understanding human behavior.
"interested in i'm i'm uh uh reading a book about the the scientific uh power of storytelling and essentially um the author makes a very good case from looking at research that replicates um that essen..."
Creating Causality in Narratives
In this segment, Hunt elaborates on how humans instinctively create narratives of causality, even when sensory perceptions contradict them. He connects this behavior to investing, explaining how traders must discern between genuine market movements and fabricated stories that emerge in response to events.
"because i want to get a coke i'm walking because i need to use the restroom and and so like one of the things that i've been persecuting in the way i try to get people to think about things is you nee..."
The Role of Narrative in Trading
Hunt emphasizes the importance of understanding narratives in trading, explaining how traders react to news and stories. He discusses the concept of 'fading' a story when it becomes common knowledge, illustrating how narratives can influence market behavior and decision-making.
"yes i agree so from investing that's when you want to then buy the banks right so so there is you're absolutely right right that events create a story because we as humans we create stories that conve..."
Critical Distance in Trading
This segment explores the necessity for traders to maintain critical distance from narratives. Hunt argues that while traders must analyze stories critically, society at large suffers from a lack of trust in leadership due to manipulative narratives, which can lead to detrimental outcomes.
"under other circumstances but today that's all right this is a situation jim where the narrative comes first and then the price movement responds to that right so so what you're describing is absolute..."
The Challenge of Machine Learning in Investing
Hunt raises questions about the acceptance of machine learning results in investing, particularly when they provide answers without the 'why.' He discusses the human inclination to seek explanations and narratives, which complicates the integration of data-driven insights into traditional investing practices.
"really interesting and it makes me think of two two things two questions uh well the first is more of an observation and that is um i i am endeavoring a new um research project and i'm lucky in that i..."
Distrust in Leadership
In this segment, Hunt critiques the current political class, describing them as manipulative and untrustworthy. He argues that the pervasive use of narrative manipulation by leaders has eroded public trust, emphasizing the need for a grassroots approach to reclaiming agency and understanding.
"to to to describe the why but so that leads to my question and that is i aren't aren't there like large groups of people well the traitors that you cite for example that who who make their careers goi..."
Emergence from Below
Hunt discusses the concept of complex adaptive systems, arguing that meaningful change must come from grassroots movements rather than top-down approaches. He emphasizes the importance of collective action and awareness in countering manipulative narratives that dominate society.
"right it's a child's version of of what they think you know nudging and the like works but everybody is trying to do it ceos right this this is what it means to be a successful ceo today it's not oper..."
Narrative Early Warning System
Hunt proposes the idea of a 'narrative early warning system,' a browser app designed to identify and highlight manipulative narratives in real-time. He draws parallels to historical movements, suggesting that technology can empower individuals to recognize and resist transactional narratives that distort reality.
"right what do we do about this jim right and i will tell you i don't think that i'll call it a top-down approach really works here but yeah top-down it's a complex adaptive system and if you if you kn..."
Understanding Tribal Narratives
Ben Hunt discusses the concept of tribal grammars and narratives, explaining how they shape our perceptions and interactions. He highlights the dangers of 'othering' and how societal narratives can manipulate our understanding of identity and community. This segment emphasizes the importance of recognizing these narratives to foster a more inclusive dialogue.
"know within each of these narrative grammars it really is a linguistic study right they're like different languages there's the language of i'll call them tribal grammars right one is othering here's ..."
The Power of Technology in Narrative
Hunt draws parallels between Martin Luther's use of the printing press and modern technology's potential to reshape narratives. He introduces the idea of a 'narrative early warning system' that could help individuals identify manipulative narratives in real-time, empowering them to think critically about the information they consume.
"technologies that can help us enormously for our secular version of this and what i mean by that is this is the big project i want to have in mind i call it a narrative early warning system news it's ..."
The Challenge of the Digital Age
In this segment, Ben Hunt reflects on the chaotic distribution of information in the digital age, where the internet amplifies variance and creates new challenges. He expresses concern for those on the fringes of society who may be left behind in this new landscape, emphasizing the need for collective awareness and action.
"are going to happen to people on the right side of the tail i'm not worried about them it's the people on the left side of the tail that i'm worried about and that i think we collectively need to thin..."
Preserving Humanity's Stories
Hunt discusses the importance of preserving universal stories of empathy, love, and sacrifice in the face of modern distractions. He proposes creating a blockchain-based 'arc of stories' to safeguard these narratives, ensuring they remain accessible to future generations as a fundamental human right.
"when the world collapsed those you know men right he's talking about monks in a monastery wrote down all the old stories yep all the old books yep and preserve them for a time when they could be avail..."
The Role of Stories in Defining Humanity
Ben Hunt emphasizes the significance of stories in shaping our understanding of humanity. He argues that access to diverse narratives is essential for personal growth and societal cohesion, advocating for a system that ensures these stories are preserved and shared widely.
"i love it but here's but here's the flip side of that coin jim i i also wanted to be able so that we can also communicate those stories so that you can have a device right that is not being able to be..."
The Importance of Purpose
In this segment, Hunt reflects on the necessity of purpose in life, quoting Mark Twain on the significance of understanding one's 'why.' He argues that stories provide the context and meaning that help individuals navigate their lives and contribute to a greater societal narrative.
"listen i think that's the antidote i mean i i love that i'm that's one of my missions too really is to like show people there are lots of different ways and lots of different things that you should e..."
Creating a Narrative Archive
Hunt outlines his vision for a narrative omni archive that collects and preserves humanity's stories. He discusses the challenges of making these stories universally accessible and the potential for technology to facilitate this goal, ensuring that essential narratives are not lost to time.
"about the why jim yeah and ben what you're saying is uh the second project um the first project sounds like a pretty neat uh i think so investing investing app um the second one though that would be t..."
Countering Narrative Control
In this segment, Ben Hunt addresses the need for countermeasures against narrative control by powerful entities. He emphasizes the importance of creating systems that allow for the free exchange of stories and ideas, advocating for a future where access to diverse narratives is a birthright.
"i'm good at acronyms right so the acronym is noaa right so it's it's a it's a narrative omni archive for humanity and the first step is to literally collect all the stories those finite number of stor..."
The Impact of Disney on Storytelling
Hunt critiques the way Disney has transformed classic narratives, arguing that they have domesticated important stories. He calls for the preservation of original tales and the creation of alternative narratives that reflect the complexity of human experience, rather than simplified versions.
"stopped by disney well you know that's absolutely you know that's a very and and i know i'm gonna piss off some of my listeners there but like disney butchers pretty badly in many respects some like t..."
The Invisible Metaverse of Humanity
Ben Hunt concludes by discussing the concept of a physical metaverse, emphasizing the interconnectedness of human experiences and stories. He argues that recognizing this invisible network is crucial for understanding our shared humanity and for fostering meaningful connections in a digital age.
"and i i don't begrudge disney doing what disney does what i'm saying is there needs to be an alternative right and i shouldn't serve here i do not either right i do not i know you do yeah yeah yeah ex..."
The Power of Collective Humanity
Hunt reflects on the importance of community and shared narratives in combating the 'nudging state' and oligarchy. He expresses gratitude for the global audience of Epsilon Theory, emphasizing that many people share a desire to preserve and build upon our humanity in the face of societal pressures.
"doesn't make it any less real any less biological and i i think once we recognize that we get on such a better foundation to do all sorts of cool things jim i i think ben this is awesome i think that ..."
Old Stories and Human Nature
Ben Hunt delves into the historical context of human behavior, drawing parallels between ancient Roman practices and modern society. He discusses how understanding our past can inform our present and help us navigate the complexities of human nature and governance.
"to the raccoons yeah jim this has been the greatest thing uh for for me the most personally gratifying thing for me in you know writing epsilon theory and then you know having you know tens of thousan..."
Disagreement as a Path to Understanding
In this segment, Hunt emphasizes the value of disagreement in discussions, highlighting that differing opinions can lead to deeper understanding when approached with respect and an open heart. He advocates for treating each other as autonomous individuals capable of independent thought.
"in someone's eye but for the point of preserving and building our humanity i listen i i i love that i'm sure that i have many disagreements on uh the sub levels uh but that's okay you know that's okay..."
Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose
Hunt references the phrase from 'Friday Night Lights' to encapsulate the importance of clarity and empathy in human interactions. He argues that by seeing the world as it is and treating others with kindness, we can foster a more compassionate society.
"physical therapist and he he he what he had been educated just in that right so the history all of that like he didn't hadn't taken many of those classes and so he would be there working on me for lik..."
Inception of Humanity's Future
In a thought-provoking conclusion, Hunt imagines having the power to inspire the world with two simple messages: 'Read' and 'Touch the Earth.' He believes these concepts encapsulate the essence of moving forward in a complex world, urging a return to fundamental human experiences and understanding.
"and his farms to the ground and they would salt the ground so it would never grow again and i and i said we told the story all the way up to who is the current og well america is yeah and you know the..."