All Segments
"... maybe the problem is you" - Linus
43 segments available
Twitch https://twitch.tv/ThePrimeagen Discord https://discord.gg/ThePrimeagen Become Backend Dev: https://boot.dev/prime (plus i make courses for them) This is also the best way to support me is to support yourself becoming a better backend engineer. ### Timestamps 00:00 - Intro 00:30 - Context 10:52 - Nice Rust Guy Tries 13:22 - The Worst Job Ever 18:00 - More Rust Defense 20:35 - C Maintainer Strikes Back 35:15 - Greg Steps In 41:16 - Community Wants Clarity 42:42 - Drama Behind - Rust Guy Two Goes For Cancel Culture 46:12 - Linus Steps In 50:30 - Greg And The Conclusion ### LINKS Beginning: https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250108135951.GA18074@lst.de/ Greg: https://lwn.net/ml/all/2025013030-gummy-cosmic-7927@gregkh/ Great News? Want me to research and create video????: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThePrimeagen Kinesis Advantage 360: https://bit.ly/Prime-Kinesis Get production ready SQLite with Turso: https://turso.tech/deeznuts
Segments Timeline
The Rust Debate Begins
Linus introduces the ongoing discussion about the inclusion of Rust in the Linux kernel. He highlights the resistance from some maintainers, particularly Christopher Hellwig, who argues against Rust's integration, emphasizing the importance of maintainability and readability in C code. Linus reflects on the generational divide in programming practices, particularly the reliance on tools like grep versus modern language server protocols (LSPs).
"I don't know if you guys know this but there's one thing I've learned about devs and it's that devs love bike shedding so let's find out what happens apparently rust at least as the headline says rust..."
Navigating Code with Grep vs. LSPs
Linus discusses the contrasting approaches to code navigation among developers, particularly the older generation's reliance on grep compared to the newer generation's use of language server protocols (LSPs). He shares his experiences with LSPs in large C/C++ projects, highlighting the challenges and frustrations that arise when trying to maintain code standards and navigate complex codebases.
"they're still I mean what is it 2015 2014 so it's like they're about 10 years old uh open source the open source LSPs now cags existed beforehand cags were generally how people uh navigated before bef..."
Fear of Change in Kernel Development
Linus explores the apprehension among long-time Linux developers regarding the introduction of Rust. He suggests that the resistance may stem from a fear of change and a lack of trust in new contributors to maintain the quality of the codebase. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the historical context of the Linux project and the concerns of maintainers who have invested decades into its development.
"projects uh Ral show an editor that I that can find all the differ different relations of a function across all possible build combinations I I know like people don't realize some of the complexities ..."
The Challenge of Multilanguage Projects
Linus addresses the complexities of maintaining a multilanguage project like the Linux kernel. He discusses the difficulties that arise when integrating new languages, such as Rust, and the potential for increased maintenance burdens. He argues that while Rust offers advantages, the transition must be handled carefully to avoid alienating existing maintainers and contributors.
"defense of this person CU I think people probably read these headlines and think this guy is just being a jerk maybe there's something more to it um maybe he's just trying to be a DK though a jerk tho..."
Rust's Role in Linux Kernel Development
Linus reflects on the potential for Rust to coexist with C in the Linux kernel, provided that proper abstractions are created. He discusses the importance of maintaining a clear separation between Rust and C interfaces to ensure that the kernel remains stable and maintainable. Linus acknowledges the challenges ahead but expresses cautious optimism about the future of Rust in kernel development.
"not saying uh he uh he is not saying that it uh that must be duplicated let's see don't force me to deal with your shiny language of the day maintaining multilanguage projects is a pain I have no inte..."
Maintaining Compatibility with Rust
Linus emphasizes the need for Rust developers to be proactive in maintaining compatibility with C APIs as the kernel evolves. He shares his experiences with the frustrations of keeping up with changes in external APIs and the stress that comes with it. Linus argues that Rust's integration into the kernel will require a commitment to ongoing maintenance and adaptation.
"long as it's behind cabi abstractions okay I think that's fair lowl TV um this will be impossible to get everyone on board you either need to keep it C only or you need to lose a lot of maintainers an..."
The Long Road Ahead for Rust in Linux
Linus concludes by discussing the long-term implications of integrating Rust into the Linux kernel. He predicts that this will be a generational project, requiring patience and collaboration among developers. Linus highlights the importance of maintaining the existing knowledge base within the Linux community while gradually introducing new technologies like Rust.
"actually goes in underneath the hood and all I do is I use 2404 jammie and like that's it I don't even think about I don't even think about any of these things right you skipped uh you skipped like th..."
The Frustration of Production Breaks
Linus shares a vivid memory of a production break at a tax company due to a minor version change. He expresses his frustration over the lack of communication and understanding regarding what constitutes a major versus minor change, illustrating the real-world impact of these technical decisions on developers.
"that they decided to add sane defaults but sane defaults for them for their testing platform not for me so of course what does that mean it means it broke a whole bunch of stuff but they're saying it ..."
The Life of a Data Engineer
Reflecting on the challenges faced by data engineers, Linus empathizes with those in similar positions who must navigate the complexities of software updates and API changes. He highlights the difficulties that arise when the other side of the development process lacks consideration for the impact of their changes.
"going no you can't mute you can't mute and scream this was 2011 or 12 I was in office talking to the person I was looking at the windows in the windows of their soul we were eye to eye I could have to..."
Collaboration in Kernel Development
Linus discusses the importance of collaboration in kernel development, particularly when integrating changes from Rust into the Linux kernel. He acknowledges the need for maintainers to work together to address API changes and ensure smooth integration, emphasizing the collaborative spirit of the development community.
"whoopsies uh anyways you really are describing the life of a data engineer yeah exactly it really sucks to be in these positions so when I hear this I actually feel really bad for Danilo I I don't thi..."
Concerns Over Rust Integration
In this segment, Linus addresses concerns from C developers regarding the integration of Rust into the Linux kernel. He discusses the potential challenges and the need for clear communication and collaboration to ensure that both Rust and C developers can work together effectively.
"question at the end where I was asked how I think about cases where rust abstraction break caused C or rust abstractions break caused cap API changes my answer was that I'm not too concerned about thi..."
The Future of DMA API with Rust
Linus explores the future of the DMA API in relation to Rust, discussing the ongoing efforts to improve integration and maintain clean interfaces. He highlights the importance of keeping the Rust side of the interface straightforward to facilitate collaboration and minimize complexity.
"email again I still feel bad for the C people because I think a lot of the C people how they're viewing it is that if this guy quits or whoever's maintaining that part of the rust driver quits then it..."
Maintainers' Perspectives on Rust
Linus shares insights into the perspectives of maintainers regarding the introduction of Rust into the kernel. He discusses the concerns about maintainability and the potential for increased complexity, emphasizing the need for a unified approach to development.
"is not even close to tackling the sgbased dma API Parts same applies for the rust wrapping dma buff interfaces that's just more of the same okay SEMA SEMA balls um yeah on your chin so again everythin..."
The Debate Over Cross-Language Codebases
In this segment, Linus delves into the debate surrounding cross-language codebases, particularly the integration of Rust into C projects. He discusses the implications of introducing multiple languages into a single codebase and the challenges it poses for maintainability and collaboration.
"itself just to escape the flame War Brigade okay I mean okay so is his so his argument truly is he does not want any part of the codebase to be a dual language experience because he even does explicit..."
The Importance of Unified Projects
Linus emphasizes the significance of maintaining a unified project structure in kernel development. He argues that introducing multiple languages can complicate the development process and hinder collaboration among maintainers, ultimately affecting the stability of the kernel.
"restrict the usage of public kernel API for a certain entity arbitrarily and or by personal preference which as it appears to me is the case here also fair so I think the cross language argument is ve..."
Technical vs. Personal Arguments in Development
Linus reflects on the nature of arguments surrounding the integration of Rust into the kernel, distinguishing between technical concerns and personal preferences. He highlights the importance of addressing technical issues while recognizing the personal dynamics that influence decision-making in development.
"I can to stop this this is not because I hate rust while not my favorite language it's definitely one of the best new ones and I've encouraged people to use it for new projects where it fits I do not ..."
Rust's Advantages in Kernel Development
In this segment, Linus discusses the advantages of using Rust in kernel development, particularly its potential to prevent memory-related security issues. He acknowledges the benefits of Rust's design while also recognizing the challenges of integrating it into an established C codebase.
"in and help I think that's like the I think I think that's the point I think that's the argument he's attempting to make unification is huge yeah I think people are I think people are discounting how ..."
Navigating the Future of Kernel Development
Linus concludes by discussing the future of kernel development in light of the ongoing debates over Rust integration. He emphasizes the need for clear communication and collaboration among developers to navigate the complexities of maintaining a unified and efficient codebase.
"prevent an entire series of problems right I would rather use zigg and I think Zig would be better than c for Colonels while not having rust I actually think Zig is great okay again shut up uh but I t..."
Seeking Common Ground on Rust Integration
In this discussion, Linus and his peers explore the potential for a common ground regarding Rust's integration into Linux. Linus firmly states his support for using Rust in new codebases but expresses his reluctance to adopt it within the Linux kernel. The segment highlights the ongoing debate about how to balance innovation with the stability of existing systems.
"people know how to trigger me so good they're so good at it it's actually shocking how good you guys are at at getting me to get shocked all right we're almost getting up to Greg so Greg's about to ge..."
The Challenges of Rust Driver Maintenance
Linus addresses the complexities of maintaining Rust drivers within the Linux kernel. He discusses the implications of changes in core APIs and how they affect Rust builds, emphasizing the need for collaboration between Rust and Linux maintainers. This segment sheds light on the intricate relationship between different programming languages and their integration into large-scale projects.
"curious I I'm actually really curious how Greg responds to this because this has long left a software engineering problem and now has officially hit a people problem and we're in deadlock okay we're i..."
The Downstream Dependency Dilemma
In this segment, Linus elaborates on the downstream dependency issues that arise when integrating Rust into the Linux kernel. He explains how changes in the kernel can impact Rust builds and the responsibilities of maintainers. The discussion highlights the challenges of ensuring compatibility and stability in a multi-language environment.
"Linux languages file which specifies the languages you can use and what the rules are written down transparently black on white as a counterpart to the Linux licenses basically okay so for formal form..."
Linus's Stance on Rust Integration
Linus clarifies his position on Rust's integration into the Linux kernel, emphasizing that while he supports Rust, he expects it to maintain compatibility with existing systems. He discusses the importance of ensuring that Rust code does not disrupt the stability of the kernel, reflecting on the broader implications of integrating new technologies into established frameworks.
"maintainers unless accompanied by matching rust hunks I know hunks is a term in in git okay I understand that but it's much more fun to say it the other way okay can we just all agree there's just som..."
The Future of Rust in Linux
Linus speculates on the future of Rust within the Linux ecosystem, suggesting that the integration of Rust may become necessary as the complexity of maintaining multiple drivers increases. He discusses the potential for a middleware layer to facilitate this integration, highlighting the ongoing evolution of programming practices in response to technological advancements.
"getting that correct which is that he's allowing freedom and responsibility they need to figure out the lines they need to figure out how to organize themselves it's not up to lonus but that they need..."
Understanding the Linux Kernel's Evolution
In this segment, Linus reflects on the slow and deliberate nature of changes within the Linux kernel. He emphasizes the importance of careful planning and the long-term commitment required for feature development. This discussion underscores the significance of stability in one of the world's most critical software infrastructures.
"like my guess of what's going on here is that there's going to come a point where this keeping it out actually becomes un inable untenable inable inable a tenable it's a tenable ear tenable uh for it ..."
The Role of Community in Kernel Development
Linus discusses the role of the community in the development of the Linux kernel, highlighting the collaborative nature of the project. He acknowledges the challenges faced by maintainers and the importance of community support in navigating the complexities of kernel development. This segment emphasizes the collective effort required to maintain and evolve such a significant piece of software.
"believe that like I don't believe it's it's some hate or anything like that all right here we go the dreadlord the captain or no technically if we're going to continue this if we're g to technically i..."
Navigating the Challenges of Kernel Changes
In this segment, Linus addresses the difficulties associated with making changes to the Linux kernel. He discusses the need for careful consideration of how changes impact various components, including Rust. The conversation highlights the intricate balance between innovation and stability in software development.
"so it I know I just called lonus the most evil incarnation in the universe I'm so proud of you Prime thank you teach uh but I'm just saying I know these things Moran yeah Moran Moran has claimed the t..."
The Interplay of Rust and Linux
Linus explores the dynamic relationship between Rust and Linux, discussing the implications of integrating Rust into the kernel. He reflects on the challenges and opportunities presented by this integration, emphasizing the need for collaboration and understanding among developers. This segment captures the ongoing dialogue about the future of programming languages in the context of Linux development.
"in this is why I think people have such a hard time with front end and back back end coding is because there is not a clear up and down stream and it seems like things are always moving in such a way ..."
Understanding Rust Build Issues
In this segment, the discussion revolves around unresolved Rust build failures and the implications of merging pull requests. The speaker highlights the complexities of kernel development and the challenges faced by maintainers when dealing with broken builds, emphasizing the need for clear communication and expectations in the development process.
"build failures I'm also not sure about moved on uh Euro's previously accepted patches are still unmerged let's see Euros has now respa a V4 without a config CC has type of un unal is that supposed to ..."
The Long Road of Kernel Development
The speaker reflects on the lengthy and intricate nature of Linux kernel development, citing experiences from seasoned developers. They stress that significant features require years of planning and execution, underscoring the importance of patience and thoroughness in the development process, especially given Linux's critical role in the tech ecosystem.
"that you expect lonus to have merged Andrew's PR and left the rust build the broken uh left left the rust build broken so that the rust maintainer developers could fix it later Json I called him Json ..."
Linux: The Greatest Software Ever?
In a bold statement, the speaker argues that Linux is arguably the greatest piece of software ever written, dismissing comparisons with other technologies. They advocate for the slow and careful approach to changes in the Linux kernel, reinforcing the idea that the stability of such a foundational system is paramount.
"by the way right like I don't think anyone should be upset that Linux takes a long time to make changes you know the entire world runs off Linux like people kind of forget that the greatest piece of s..."
Setting Expectations in Development
This segment discusses the necessity for clear communication from Linus Torvalds regarding the development process and expectations. The speaker emphasizes that without clear guidance, misunderstandings can lead to frustration within the community, advocating for a more structured approach to managing contributions and changes.
"would argue no JS okay fair right squeal light is amazing it's done a lot of stuff but it's just not the same right I think squeal light is like a second tier I think gets a third tier I just don't th..."
The Sensitivity of Language in Tech
The conversation shifts to the sensitivity surrounding language used in tech discussions, particularly regarding the term 'cancer.' The speaker expresses concern over the potential for overreaction to language in the community and advocates for a more resilient approach to criticism and discourse in software development.
"on do we have okay we do have one more Greg response uh my two cense if lus doesn't pipe up with an authoritative answer to this thread Miguel and the other rust folks should just merge this series On..."
Burnout in Development Communities
The speaker shares personal experiences of burnout in high-pressure development environments, drawing parallels to the current situation in the Linux community. They highlight the emotional toll of navigating conflicting opinions and the importance of maintaining mental health amidst the challenges of community-driven projects.
"I think he's just probably tired of this like can we just all be real here for a second imagine having to do this on like the daily SLO all right so lonus does does speak here uh yeah know uh this was..."
Rejecting Social Media Shaming
In this segment, the speaker critiques the practice of shaming individuals on social media for their contributions or opinions in tech. They argue that such tactics are counterproductive and advocate for constructive dialogue instead, emphasizing the need for a supportive community that fosters growth rather than division.
"isn't this sensitive to the point where if someone says cancer doesn't mean oh well gosh can you I mean that just seems that seems so wild like we sh we I I just do hope that people are strong enough ..."
The Problem Might Be You
The speaker provocatively suggests that sometimes the issue lies with the individual rather than the system. They argue for a recognition of the complexities within the development process and the acceptance that no system is perfect, encouraging a mindset shift towards personal accountability in the tech community.
"that will end in disaster if if he were to say that instead of cancers that's somehow okay right it's kind of one of these things where it's like I think we've become entirely too sensitive about word..."
Corporate Sponsorship in Open Source
The discussion turns to the role of corporate sponsorship in open-source projects. The speaker challenges the negative perceptions surrounding corporate involvement, arguing that sponsorship can be beneficial for project sustainability and development, while also acknowledging the need for careful consideration of corporate influence.
"media briting because if we issue uh if we have issues in the colonel development model then social media sure as hell isn't the solution the same way it is it sure as hell wasn't the solution in poli..."
The Case for Corporate Sponsorship
Linus discusses the importance of corporate sponsorship in open-source projects, particularly in the context of the Rust community. He argues that while some view corporate involvement negatively, it can actually provide essential support for development and sustainability. Linus emphasizes that blanket statements against corporate sponsorship can hinder progress and collaboration within the tech community.
"decreasing since the start of the uh assai Linux project the project has zero corporate sponsorship which makes it super hard by the way I think you should take corporate sponsorships you should Rush ..."
Debunking Anti-Corporate Sentiments
In this segment, Linus critiques the prevalent anti-corporate sentiment within the Rust community. He highlights the contradiction in demanding corporate support while simultaneously criticizing corporations for their involvement. Linus argues that recognizing and celebrating corporate contributions is crucial for the growth and success of open-source projects.
"things that in involve corporations as bad just feels a little bit odd you know like you could argue like you know I would I would be under absolutely no like I would not consider it bad for somebody ..."
The Irony of Open Source Contributions
Linus reflects on the irony of the open-source community's expectations of corporations. He points out that while many companies invest significant resources into open-source projects, they often face backlash for not doing enough. This segment emphasizes the need for a more constructive dialogue between corporations and the open-source community to foster collaboration.
"completely fair when it comes to Linux like okay so here's my problem so I'm going to just I'm going to lay this out and this is going to be a really hot take I actually hate this sentence I don't it'..."
The Role of Corporate Funding in Linux
Linus discusses the critical role of corporate funding in the Linux ecosystem, noting that over 80% of contributions come from company-funded developers. He argues that this support is vital for the sustainability of Linux and that dismissing corporate involvement undermines the collaborative nature of the project. This segment highlights the necessity of corporate backing for the future of open-source software.
"corporations many corporations not just one so it's not just like it's only Google that's the one sponsoring like it's a bunch of Corporations so at least minimally we know that it's moving forward th..."
Encouraging Corporate Contributions
In this segment, Linus advocates for a shift in perspective regarding corporate contributions to open-source projects. He believes that instead of criticizing corporations, the community should encourage and celebrate their involvement. Linus emphasizes that fostering a positive relationship with corporate sponsors can lead to more resources and support for open-source initiatives.
"exactly like I don't know what the perfect thing is supposed to be there are a ton of Corporation sponsorship behind rust though yes there are there's tons of it there's tons of corporate sponsorship ..."
Building a Better Tech Community
Linus shares his vision for a more supportive and understanding tech community. He reflects on personal experiences with conflict and emphasizes the importance of grace and empathy in online interactions. This segment calls for a collective effort to improve the tech community by promoting kindness and collaboration, rather than divisiveness.
"yeah I'm totally on Greg's team um okay I don't really I don't know who Hector is um it sounds like he's dude it sounds like he's just been beaten down sounds like he's having a hard time uh I hope th..."
The Future of Rust and Linux
Linus concludes with thoughts on the long-term future of the Rust and Linux communities. He suggests that significant changes may take decades to fully realize and emphasizes the need for a generational commitment to these projects. This segment encapsulates Linus's belief in the potential for growth and improvement within the open-source landscape.
"he does in his activism and social side/ what he does on the internet including shaming people on social media which I think is a very low way to go about stuff we can still be better and say hey guys..."