"I think a lot of people don't realize how massive the positive impact AI is going to have on their life. Well, I would argue that the idea that this AI disruption doesn't lead us to human catastrophe ..."

"always been the fantasy of technologists to do marvelous things with our spare time, but we end up doom scrolling loneliness epidemic, right? Falling birth rates. So, the potential for good here is in..."

"much. The reason why I wanted to have this conversation with all of you is because the subject matter of AI, but more specifically AI agents, has occupied my free time for several weeks in a row. And ..."

"allows you to create software. Mhm. And pretty much any software you you want. So someone like me with absolutely no coding skills was able to build a website, build in Stripe, take payment integrate ..."

"about a month ago and I went on and I ordered a bottle of electrolytes and when it when my doorbell rang I freaked out. I freaked out. But am who are you and what are you doing? So uh I started progra..."

"computer in front of you. It is um an internet connection. It is the set of tools and skills that you need to build that. If we make it so that anyone who has ideas who who wants to solve problems wil..."

"and you can just uh speak your ideas into existence. I mean this starts you know sounding religious like this is like the you know the gods you know that the myths that that um that humans have create..."

"most of us, it functions, it's it is mysterious enough that it feels like a complex system. And if you're in the position of having mastered highly complicated systems and you look at complex systems ..."

"That's one of my fears. This is an evolving creature and it's not even an animal. If it were an animal, you could say something about what the limits of that capability are. But this is a new type of ..."

"Like society would have to rethink how everyone lives and works and gets meaning. Um so like and that's that's if it just stays at a median level of intelligence. Like it's it's pretty profound. I sti..."

"create a world. Yes, there's massive access to opportunity, but there are people who will take seize it and then they'll seize it and then there'll be people who don't. I imagine it almost like a um a..."

"interesting wedge. Well, but I I hear in what both of you are saying a kind of assumption that this will all be done on the up and up. And I do want to just I am not a doomer. I agree that the doomers..."

"for what to do about that. Um to can I can I give you a quick uh like introduction here like the optimistic view? OpenAI invented uh GP the first version GPT came out in 2019. 2020 was GPT2 and so Ope..."

"Brett that it is kind of surprising how little abuse we've seen so far? I don't know how much abuse we've seen so far. I don't know how any of us do. And I also even the example that you suggest where..."

"So I I don't see the reason for comfort there. We are at the dawn of this radical transformation of humans that by its very nature as a truly complex and emergent innovation. Nobody on earth can predi..."

"uncontrolled experiment in which all of humanity is downstream. Yeah. So I I was trying to make the point that OpenAI has been sort of wrong about the uh the sort of uh how big of a potential for harm..."

"we want to worry about. But these are kind of these isolated uh incidents and we do have open- source large language models. Obviously, the thing that everyone talks about is DeepSeek. Deepseek is uh ..."

"open source it. So these market forces are going to create conditions that I think are actually beneficial. So I'll give you a few few examples. One is first of all the AI companies are motivated to c..."

"something called a colle collective action problem. And in the market that you're describing, an individual company has no capacity to hold back the abuses of AI. The most you can do is not participat..."

"already happening. So, that's a problem. And likewise, what what would stop somebody from interacting with an individual and training an LLM to become like a personalized con artist? Something that wo..."

"positive impact on their life. I look at people like um I was just spending some time with my parents-in-law um who are in their 70s and early 80s and they use AI regularly for all sorts of things tha..."

"unbounded seemingly conscious artificial intelligence that can entirely replace humans and can act autonomously in a way that even humans can't act and can coordinate across different AIs different da..."

"and what I'm saying is this is sort of like an end of time story like how would you even prepare for that so if if that's coming like why would I spend my time preparing for I think it's unlikely to h..."

"all humans. And Sam Alman actually wrote a blog three months ago that I read where he said we are confident now Sam Alman being the founder of open arrow which um created chatbt we are confident now t..."

"a tool and so ultimately not only do I think that humans have a privileged position in the in the world and in the universe. We don't know where conscious consciousness is coming from. We don't really..."

"central question I'd love to answer before I throw it back open to the the room is what jobs because I know that you have this perspective. What jobs are going to be made redundant in a world where I ..."

"that's like probably text or images that that job is is at risk. So, just to give you some stats here as well, about 50% of Americans who have a college degree currently use AI. The stats are signific..."

"but but uh also uh these people are actually already transitioning to training AI eyes. Mhm. You know, so so there's going to be a massive industry around training AI until they're trained. Well, no, ..."

"of 100 are completely out of a job. We also always underestimate a technology if it does go on to change history. When you look back through cars, horses planes, the Wright brothers just thought of a ..."

"what does become? We only have one thing left. Um we have our muscles which we got rid of in the industrial revolution and then we have our intellect which is this digital revolution. Now we're left w..."

"And you know again I don't know how to make this point so that it occurs to people what I'm really suggesting but today maybe it's not conscious but well let me put it to you this way. If you're consc..."

"would say things in not so polite way and then suddenly they started putting their the you know what they're saying through chat in order to kind of make it kinder and nicer and they're more liked now..."

"optimistic and that we need to start preparing right now. What are the rights of a person who has had whatever it is that they've invested in completely erased from the list of needs? Is that person r..."

"and it also did actually happen. There was a there was an uh for the first 50 years of industrialization from like late 1700s to early 1800s, you actually the Charles Dickens novels are essentially pe..."

"there's an entrepreneur that used Replet in a similar way. Uh his name is Billy Howell. You can find him on YouTube on the internet. He would go to Upwork and he would find what people are asking for ..."

"about the folks who are going to be displaced from the top? What are they going to think about all these people building all of these highly competitive businesses? And are they going to find a way to..."

"inbuilt distribution. So I now think actually much of the game might be moving to like yeah still about taste and idea but also the the mo is distribution. Yeah. And speaking of adaptive systems um th..."

"because to move people from Facebook or Twitter, you need to it's the collective action problem. You need to move them all at once because if one of them moves, then it's the network is not valuable, ..."

"unhealthy. And now you have Whole Foods everywhere. Today, people in Silicon Valley, they don't go to bars at all. They go to running clubs. That's how you meet. That's how you go find a date. You go ..."

"wealth. And so you allude to the superior fact of an open market without moes. Presumably the benefit of that is that more wealth gets created because people aren't kept from doing things that are pro..."

"of a correction." Or maybe there's nobody there to even say that. Those are also on the table. It reminds me of a mouse trap where you see the cheese and we're going, "Oh my god, my grandmother's goin..."

"regression in how fair the the market that the West is. Is that your top concern versus economic displacement? And I think they're the same thing. How are they the same thing? because the economic dis..."

"on that. But that's already happening. This isn't some antologist or something. And these aren't high paid people in every case. We've done something similar, by the way. We've we internally we've we'..."

"this point of meaning I've heard so many billionaires in AI describe this as the age of abundance and I'm not necessarily sure If abundance is always a great thing because you know when we look at men..."

"exploit it. That's what we do. And the world you're describing is really the opposite of that. It's one where you're effectively having your biological needs at the physiological level satisfied and t..."

"Interestingly, you also see in Western countries that when we get more abundance, we start having less kids. And we're already seeing this sort of population decline in the Western world which is was ..."

"and also I guess I guess we've got to overlay that with the loneliness epidemic which is they promised us social connection when social media came about, when we got Wi-Fi connections, the promise was..."

"in our book, A Hunter Gather's Guide to the 21st Century, call hyper novelty. Hypern novelty is the fact of the rate of change outpacing our capacity to adapt to change. And we are already well past t..."

"impact. So, it's it's one of these things where I wonder what is that what is it that we need to teach people at school so that they understand the world that we're going into? Because one of the bigg..."

"at best was sort of a match for the 50s or something like that and it woefully misses the mark with respect to preparing people for the world they actually face if we were going to prepare them I woul..."

"interventions you can make in education to generate better outcomes. Um and so you know uh there's been a lot of experiment around pedagogy around you know how to configure the the the classroom that ..."

"approach these systems with a upgraded toolkit of humility because the ability of the system to do something you don't predict is much greater than a highly complicated system. So you have to anticipa..."

"So the guiding philosophy for me is uh to produce high agency generalists. So um ultimately I want them to be motivated self-starters and have a wide general toolkit. I imagine them very much what you..."

"when you're actually just consuming something. So trying to give them the understanding that there is this difference in their life between creation and consumption and to be on the creation side. I s..."

"The thing that we I think all agree on is that this is inevitable. Do you agree with that, Brett? I think it's sad that it is inevitable, but at this point it is. What part of it do you find sad? We h..."

"theoretic reasons no way to slow that pace because as you point out if we restrain ourselves we simply put the AI in the hands of our competitors. That's not a solution. So, I don't advocate it but th..."

"to do that job I'll give you an example a teacher his name is Adil Khan you know he started using at the time GPT3 and uh felt like it does amazing work as a tools for teachers or even potentially a t..."

"I feel really good and I pay him a bunch of money. My grandfather would be like what on earth have you been scammed? Is this so we can never predict what what this uh future of jobs would look like. E..."

"and then back here. If we're learning rather than skills, but we're learning tools. So it's a tools-based education as opposed to a skills-based education. The the purpose of education for most of hum..."

"works but it doesn't really matter whether how it works. We we we are the beneficiaries of it and it it's doing important things and we're enjoying being house cats in in its in its life. I have a few..."

"asking the question if the rate of technological change has taken us out of the normal human circumstance of being able to deduce what you might do for a living based on what your ancestors did and pu..."

"them right yeah co they did beautifully quite happy people very low autism rates they they have all sorts of advantages so anyway I'm not arguing that we should live like the Amish I don't see that bu..."

"psychology which you know much evolutionary history which you know much more than I do about of we're meant to learn our lessons when we're young. use that information for a lifetime. But if that info..."

"a worthy goal. Something amusing. I don't know if it's exactly a counterpoint, but um during co especially and you know through the the recent technological change uh some people have started living c..."

"startups that are trying to create um cities where they're like, okay, we know that we've we're suffering because our cities are not really walkable. And there's so many reasons why we're suffering. F..."

"reverses I I guess in a more local way. I I like that vision, but I also am aware that there's a different vision right? You see people in Palo Alto, for example, actually exerting, you know very stro..."

"is living in a style that is closer to their programming and closer to the expectations of their physical bodies. You know, if that were true, then I would I would be I would love to be wrong in my fe..."

"I've heard you talk about the five key concerns you have or the five key threats you have before. Could you name those five? So the first one is the one I worry least about. I don't worry zero about i..."

"um the third of them is the derangement of human intellect that we are already living in a world where it's very difficult to know what the facts even mean. Right? We the facts are so filtered and we ..."

"just are now basically spending I'd say 30% of their time dealing with deep fakes of me doing crypto scams, inviting people to Telegram groups, and then asking them for credit card details. We had one..."

"was my voice. It was a video of me telling her something. Yeah. And I don't know I don't know how you deal with that but sorry do continue. Well, I mean that's actually on the list here. the massive d..."

"the last one is that this just simply accelerates demographic uh processes that do potentially result in the unleashing of technologies that pre-existed AI. you know, this this can easily result in an..."

"fear. One of those you you mentioned uh truth, you know, the problem of truth. Would you say just a thought experiment someone today like an average person college educated say person, are they more p..."

"recipe for do you think Google search first and maybe now chat GPT has helped people more or less to find truth? I think it's not chat GPT exactly but all of the various AI engines that we're starting..."

"depends on some kind of agreement to protect that capacity that I'm not aware of us having are you implying there that AI will protect us from AI i.e. the woman that got scammed in my audience the pla..."

"of sort the the fake from from the truth. Well, but let's let's take the example you say. Is Meta incentivized to solve this problem? Superficially, it seems that it should be, but how many times in r..."

"way that would make them competent to stand at the front of a room and educate. But if we can augment that process, if we can leverage a tool like AI so that you know a small number of competent teach..."

"to live. So we wouldn't need politicians. Um, at the moment we're stuck with, you know, constitutional protections that are as good as has been constructed and still inadequate to modern realities. Da..."

"I'm excited at an individual level that I think the industrial age created a bunch of jobs that are very dehumanizing and we've just kind of gotten used to them and put up with them. The idea that wor..."

"if they embrace these kind of tools. um you can live an incredibly fulfilling and amazing and impactful existence or I know that I do as a result of having these tools in my life. Like I'm I'm doing t..."

"seen this like the dawn of the internet or dawn of the web you know it was a lot easier to create Facebook than it is now then we had mobile and for three four five years it was very easy to create ma..."

"by the way an internal tool or I uh built an application to track um how my kids earn pocket money. Amazing. So, I just told it that I wanted to track the tasks that are happening around the house and..."

"scurve and and you talk to it like you're chatting to a developer. So one of the things that slows down the development process is you have to send the information to a developer and they need to unde..."

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"This is the thing that really worries me. And the thing that worries people about AI is this idea is that it is uh this you know emergent system and there's no one thing behind it and it can be it can..."

"subjugate the citizens and and people think we're we're safe in the west but I think the experience with co showed that even the systems in the west can very quickly become draconian. Yeah. Apparently..."

"little bit worse in Iran because they have this new app called the Nazar app where the government has introduced the Nazar mobile application which allows you as a citizen to report another citizen wh..."

"haven't done anything wrong. I had Mustafa Sullivan on the podcast in 2023 when this all of this stuff started kicking off and he is the CEO of Microsoft AI. You're familiar with Mustafa? Of course. Y..."

"Mustafa, I I don't think containment is is possible. Part of the reason why this game theoretic system uh of competition between the US, China, corporations individuals makes it so that this this tech..."

"that escalator, does some technology that we generate ultimately whatever allows you to get off the planet allows you to blow up the planet? There you go. I want to get everyone's closing thoughts and..."

"concept of entrepreneurship being this is your podcast a diary of a CEO. You started this podcast by talking to CEOs I assume right and over time uh it changed to everyone can be a CEO everyone is som..."

"about it this time. I think we should think carefully about how it is that we do not allow the combination of this brand new extremely powerful technology and market forces to turn this into some new ..."

"You know, you can sit around pontificating about society and how society might work. But ultimately, it all boils down to what you do with this moment. and solving meaningful problems being brave, hav..."