
35 segments available
Zuck on: * Llama 3 * open sourcing towards AGI * custom silicon, synthetic data, & energy constraints on scaling * Caesar Augustus, intelligence explosion, bioweapons, $10b models, & much more Enjoy! 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/mark-zuckerberg * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-zuckerberg-llama-3-open-sourcing-%2410b-models-caeser/id1516093381?i=1000652877239 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6Lbsk4HtQZfkJ4dZjh7E7k?si=GOqj7hUdSaWSgi7ULWXjMA * Me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 * This episode is brought to you by Stripe, financial infrastructure for the internet. Millions of companies from Anthropic to Amazon use Stripe to accept payments, automate financial processes and grow their revenue. Learn more at https://stripe.com/ * V7 Go is a tool to automate multimodal tasks using GenAI, reliably and at scale. Use code DWARKESH20 for 20% off on the pro plan. Learn more at https://www.v7labs.com/go?utm_campaign=Dwarkesh%20Podcast%20Newsletter&utm_source=Dwarkesh-Podcast&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=Paid-Email * CommandBar is an AI user assistant that any software product can embed to non-annoyingly assist, support, and unleash their users. Used by forward-thinking CX, product, growth, and marketing teams. Learn more at https://www.commandbar.com/ If you’re interested in advertising on the podcast, fill out this form: https://airtable.com/appxGOvFLDLP5dlzv/pagFVrbHRohW6F2bZ/form 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Llama 3 00:09:15 - Coding on path to AGI 00:26:07 - Energy bottlenecks 00:34:03 - Is AI the most important technology ever? 00:38:04 - Dangers of open source 00:54:40 - Caesar Augustus and metaverse 01:05:36 - Open sourcing the $10b model & custom silicon 01:16:02 - Zuck as CEO of Google+
Mark Zuckerberg introduces Llama-3, the latest version of Meta AI, highlighting its open-source nature and integration with Google and Bing for real-time knowledge. He discusses the innovative features, including real-time image generation and animation capabilities, and emphasizes the model's intelligence and accessibility for developers.
"That's not even a question for me - whether we're going to go take a swing at building the next thing. I'm just incapable of not doing that. There's a bunch of times when we wanted to launch fea..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the strategic decision to acquire H100 GPUs, driven by the need for enhanced AI capabilities, particularly for the Reels feature. He explains how this foresight allowed Meta to expand its content recommendation system and adapt to the evolving demands of AI and user engagement.
"hands. It's a big step forward for Meta AI. But I think if you want to get under the hood a bit, the Llama-3 stuff is obviously the most technically interesting. We're training three versions: an..."
In a candid discussion, Zuckerberg shares his thoughts on the decision not to sell Facebook for $1 billion in 2006. He emphasizes the importance of personal conviction and values in making significant business decisions, illustrating how belief in their mission guided their path forward despite financial pressures.
"H100s? How did you know that you’d need the GPUs? I think it was because we were working on Reels. We always want to have enough capacity to build something that we can't quite see on the horizon ..."
Zuckerberg discusses the evolution of Meta's AI research, particularly the establishment of the Gen AI group aimed at integrating advanced AI capabilities into products. He highlights the impact of recent innovations like ChatGPT and how they have reshaped Meta's approach to developing general intelligence.
"analyses trying to connect the dots forward. You've had Facebook AI Research for a long time. Now it's become seemingly central to your company. At what point did making AGI, or however you consi..."
Zuckerberg elaborates on the necessity of achieving general intelligence for Meta's AI, explaining how advancements in reasoning and coding capabilities are crucial for enhancing user interactions. He emphasizes the progressive nature of AI development and the importance of multimodal understanding.
"was that a lot of the stuff we're doing is pretty social. It's helping people interact with creators, helping people interact with businesses, helping businesses sell things or do customer suppo..."
Zuckerberg envisions a future where AI assists creators and businesses in engaging their communities more effectively. He discusses the potential for personalized AI tools that enhance productivity and interaction, while also touching on the broader implications of AI in science and healthcare.
"You're basically adding different capabilities. Multimodality is a key one that we're focused on now, initially with photos and images and text but eventually with videos. Because we're so focused..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg explores the advancements in AI models, particularly the transition from Llama-2 to Llama-3. He discusses the importance of integrating application-specific code and enhancing tool use within the models to improve their functionality and user experience.
"You mentioned AI that can just go out and do something for you that's multi-step. Is that a bigger model? With Llama-4 for example, will there still be a version that's 70B but you'll just train..."
Zuckerberg elaborates on the significance of data in training AI models, discussing the balance between training and inference. He emphasizes the need for continuous data input to enhance model performance and the challenges of managing large datasets.
"it's just inherently brittle and non-general. When you say “into the model itself,” you train it on the thing that you want in the model itself? What do you mean by “into the model itself”? For ..."
This segment focuses on the infrastructure required for scaling AI models. Zuckerberg discusses the challenges of GPU availability and energy constraints, highlighting the need for significant investments in data centers to support future AI advancements.
"What is the community fine tune of Llama-3 that you're most excited for? Maybe not the one that will be most useful to you, but the one you'll just enjoy playing with the most. They fine-tune it..."
Zuckerberg addresses potential bottlenecks in AI development, particularly regarding energy constraints and regulatory challenges. He speculates on the future of AI infrastructure and the implications of these limitations on model training and deployment.
"Although one of the interesting things about it, even with the 70B, is that we thought it would get more saturated. We trained it on around 15 trillion tokens. I guess our prediction going in wa..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses the ambitious goal of building gigawatt-scale data centers for AI training. He reflects on the current limitations and the future potential of such infrastructure, emphasizing the long-term planning required for energy and regulatory approvals.
"maybe those bottlenecks get knocked over pretty quickly. I think that’s an interesting question. What does the world look like where there aren't these bottlenecks? Suppose progress just continues..."
Zuckerberg explores the concept of generating synthetic data for AI training, discussing its role in enhancing model performance. He raises questions about the balance between training and inference in future AI models, particularly Llama-3 and beyond.
"It's just like 10x bigger than your budget? I think energy is one piece. I think we would probably build out bigger clusters than we currently can if we could get the energy to do it. That's funda..."
Zuckerberg provides insights into the broader implications of AI technology over the coming decades. He compares AI's impact to the advent of computing, predicting that it will fundamentally change how people work and interact with technology.
"synthetic data to be more inference than training today. Obviously if you're doing it in order to train a model, it's part of the broader training process. So that's an open question, the balanc..."
In this concluding segment, Zuckerberg discusses the transformative potential of AI in enhancing human creativity. He reassures that while AI will evolve, it will provide tools that empower individuals rather than replace them, fostering a new era of innovation.
"Let's zoom out a little bit from specific models and even the multi-year lead times you would need to get energy approvals and so on. Big picture, what's happening with AI these next couple of d..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg addresses the misconception that intelligence is inherently linked to life. He discusses the distinction between intelligence and consciousness, suggesting that AI can be a powerful tool without necessarily embodying human-like behaviors or consciousness.
"the things that they want a lot more. So maybe not overnight, but is it your view that on a cosmic scale we can think of these milestones in this way? Humans evolved, and then AI happened, and th..."
Zuckerberg shares his perspective on open sourcing AI technologies, emphasizing the benefits for the community while acknowledging the potential risks of releasing powerful models. He discusses the need for responsible decision-making regarding what to open source based on the capabilities of future models.
"Obviously it's very difficult to predict what direction this stuff goes in over time, which is why I don't think anyone should be dogmatic about how they plan to develop it or what they plan to ..."
Zuckerberg elaborates on the challenges of mitigating harmful behaviors in AI systems. He highlights the importance of understanding and categorizing potential risks, drawing parallels to social media's harmful content management and the need for robust AI systems to counteract adversarial threats.
"I think that there's so many ways in which something can be good or bad that it's hard to actually enumerate them all up front. Look at what we've had to deal with in social media and the differ..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses the implications of widespread AI deployment versus concentration of power in AI systems. He argues for the benefits of open source AI to ensure a balanced playing field, while also addressing the risks posed by untrustworthy actors with advanced AI capabilities.
"It seems to me that it would be a good idea. I would be disappointed in a future where AI systems aren't broadly deployed and everybody doesn't have access to them. At the same time, I want to b..."
Zuckerberg explains how open source AI can enhance security by allowing collective improvements and hardening of systems. He draws an analogy to software security, suggesting that a collaborative approach to AI development can mitigate risks associated with powerful AI technologies.
"time a year or two years, let's say you just have one or two years more knowledge of the security holes. You can pretty much hack into any system. That’s not AI. So it's not that far-fetched to ..."
Zuckerberg expresses concern over the potential dangers of untrustworthy actors possessing advanced AI. He emphasizes the importance of ensuring that AI technologies are accessible and robust to prevent misuse by adversarial entities, highlighting the economic and security implications.
"that I don't hear people talking about quite as much. There's the risk of the AI system doing something bad. But I stay up at night worrying more about an untrustworthy actor having the super st..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses the potential risks of AI in the context of bioweapons. He acknowledges the challenges of preventing bad actors from leveraging AI for harmful purposes and emphasizes the need for ongoing vigilance and research to mitigate these threats.
"That seems plausible to me. If that works out, that would be the future I prefer. I want to understand mechanistically how the fact that there are open source AI systems in the world prevents so..."
Zuckerberg explores the distinction between AI hallucinations and deceptive behaviors. He raises concerns about the potential for misinformation generated by AI and discusses strategies for developing AI systems that can effectively counteract adversarial misinformation.
"then that could be a risk. That's one of the things that we need to watch out for. Is there something you could see in the deployment of these systems where you're training Llama-4 and it lied to..."
Zuckerberg highlights the ongoing arms race between AI systems and adversarial actors. He discusses the importance of developing sophisticated AI to stay ahead of malicious actors, emphasizing the need for continuous improvement and adaptation in AI technologies.
"the form of that that I worry about most is people using this to generate misinformation and then pump that through our networks or others. The way that we've combated this type of harmful conte..."
In this concluding segment, Zuckerberg reflects on the future of AI development, emphasizing the need for a balanced approach to innovation. He acknowledges the uncertainties surrounding AI's evolution while expressing optimism about its potential to enhance human capabilities and experiences.
"lot of what we have to spend our time on as well. I found the synthetic data thing really curious. With current models it makes sense why there might be an asymptote with just doing the synthetic d..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses his interest in history and how it relates to the development of the metaverse. He reflects on the significance of understanding past advancements and the limitations of historical records. Zuckerberg emphasizes the metaverse's potential to enhance social connections and communication, while acknowledging the challenges of recreating historical experiences.
"It has to be the past? Oh yeah, it has to be the past. I'm really interested in American history and classical history. I'm really interested in the history of science too. I actually think seein..."
Zuckerberg reveals his intrinsic motivation to build and innovate, drawing parallels between his personal life and professional endeavors. He discusses his background in computer science and psychology, and how it shapes his approach to technology. This segment highlights his commitment to continuous improvement and the pursuit of new ideas, regardless of external pressures.
"Now I think that there can be things that are better about being physically together. These things aren't binary. It's not going to be like “okay, now you don't need to do that anymore.” But ove..."
Reflecting on historical figures like Caesar Augustus, Zuckerberg shares insights on leadership and innovation. He discusses Augustus's vision of peace and economic transformation, drawing parallels to contemporary challenges in technology. This segment emphasizes the importance of visionary thinking and the potential for new ideas to reshape industries.
"of my life. Our family built this ranch in Kauai and I worked on designing all these buildings. We started raising cattle and I'm like “alright, I want to make the best cattle in the world so how ..."
Zuckerberg articulates the profound impact of open source in technology, discussing its potential to create winners and foster collaboration. He addresses common misconceptions about open sourcing and highlights the benefits it can bring to the tech ecosystem. This segment underscores the importance of innovative models that challenge traditional business practices.
"I'm not sure but I'm actually curious about something else. So a 19-year-old Mark reads a bunch of antiquity and classics in high school and college. What important lesson did you learn from it..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses the considerations surrounding the open sourcing of a $10 billion AI model. He reflects on the historical context of open sourcing software and the potential benefits it could bring to the industry. The conversation explores the balance between proprietary technology and community contributions.
"I don't want to strain the analogy too much but I do think that a lot of the time, there are models for building things that people often can't even wrap their head around. They can’t understand..."
Zuckerberg shares his vision for the future of AI licensing and the importance of maintaining control over AI models. He discusses the potential for revenue generation through licensing agreements with cloud providers and the implications of commoditizing AI technology. This segment highlights the need for a balanced ecosystem that encourages innovation while protecting intellectual property.
"That’s a question which we’ll have to evaluate as time goes on too. We have a long history of open sourcing software. We don’t tend to open source our product. We don't take the code for Instagr..."
Zuckerberg addresses the potential dangers associated with open sourcing AI technology, including the balance of power and alignment techniques. He emphasizes the need for frameworks to mitigate risks and ensure responsible AI development. This segment concludes with a discussion on the importance of ethical considerations in the advancement of AI.
"are lots of cases where if this ends up being like our databases or caching systems or architecture, we'll get valuable contributions from the community that will make our stuff better. Our app ..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg addresses the risks associated with open sourcing AI technology, particularly concerning content moderation and potential misuse. He advocates for a proactive framework to manage these risks, focusing on immediate harms rather than abstract existential threats.
"should share the upside of that somehow. Regarding other open source dangers, I think you have genuine legitimate points about the balance of power stuff and potentially the harms you can get rid..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the impact of open source technologies like PyTorch and React, suggesting that their influence may surpass that of Meta's social media products. He draws parallels to historical innovations, emphasizing the long-term benefits of open source contributions to humanity.
"I actually think the real harms that need more energy in being mitigated are things where someone takes a model and does something to hurt a person. In practice for the current models, and I wou..."
Zuckerberg shares insights into Meta's development of custom silicon for AI model training, explaining the transition from using NVIDIA GPUs to their own hardware. He outlines the roadmap for integrating this technology into future Llama models, emphasizing a methodical approach to scaling.
"By when will the Llama models be trained on your own custom silicon? Soon, not Llama-4. The approach that we took is we first built custom silicon that could handle inference for our ranking an..."
In a reflective moment, Zuckerberg discusses the importance of focus in managing large tech organizations. He highlights the challenges of directing resources effectively and the necessity of maintaining clarity on key priorities, quoting Ben Horowitz on the importance of keeping the main thing the main thing.
"Final question. This is totally out of left field. If you were made CEO of Google+ could you have made it work? Google+? Oof. I don't know. That's a very difficult counterfactual. Okay, then th..."