"the following is a conversation with Ben Gerel one of the most interesting Minds in the artificial intelligence Community he's the founder of Singularity net designer of opencog AI framework formerly ..."

"check out the talks including by yosa Bak uh from episode 101 of this podcast quick summary of the ads two sponsors the Jordan Harbinger show and Master Class please consider supporting this podcast b..."

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"masterclass.com Lex to get a discount and to support this podcast and now here's my conversation with Ben gitzo would books authors ideas had a lot of impact on you um in your life in the early days y..."

"collaborator on on on robotics project so you know Stannis slm was was very much an intellectual right so he he had a very broad view of intelligence going beyond the human and into what I would call ..."

"heart and soul are going to be the constant that will keep us going through whatever aliens aliens we discover or telepathy machines or or or super AIS or or or whatever it might be so he didn't belie..."

"intelligence yeah so my friend Hugo degaris who I've been talking to about these things for for for many decades since the early 90s he had an idea he called SII the search for intraparticulate intell..."

"we just like like a finger of the entirety of the body of the superintelligence system we could be I mean a finger is a is a strange metaphor I mean we we we a finger is dumb is what I mean is uh is b..."

"for our fundamental ignorance I mean M mine and everybody else's I I look at my my two dogs two beautiful little toy poodles and you know they watch me sitting at the computer typing they just think I..."

"put so on The Human Side uh with uh Philip K dick and and uh in general where do you fall on this idea that uh love and just the basic Spirit of human nature persists throughout these multiple realiti..."

"and you know got married had children some my parents begin to age I started to realize well not only will AGI let you go far beyond the limitations of the human but it could also like stop us from dy..."

"are are there which makes it uh even more exciting and important so you mentioned the what did you pick up from those guys I mean that that that would probably go beyond the beyond the scope of of a b..."

"with many many different situations when did you first fall in love with AI is it the is it the programming side of Fortran is it the maybe the sociology psychology that you picked up from your dad or..."

"when I think that book Gord lerach which I think I read when it first came out it would have been 12 years old or something I remember it was like 16-hour day I read it cover to cover and then ReRe it..."

"just programming and then of course that can achieve anything else that there's another book from back then which was by fine bomb Gerald fbom who was a who was a physicist at at at Princeton and that..."

"more mainstream but it's interesting many of the themes I'm engaged with now from AGI and immortality even to trying to democratize technology as I've been pushing for with Singularity my work in the ..."

"70s I was sort of seeing that and and living living through it right from Star Trek to Douglas Hoffer things were getting very very practical from the late 60s to the late 70s and you know the first c..."

"I mean n who you mentioned had the idea of the Superman right but he he didn't understand enough about technology to think you could physically engineer a Superman by piecing together Mo molecules in ..."

"mean well those are quite different if he's born a century later or transported through time well he'd be he'd be on like Tik Tok and Instagram and he would never write the great works he's written so..."

"function D driving humans by by by by any means well do you think um if we look at I know it's hard to look at humans in an aggregate but do you think overall humans are good or or uh do we have both ..."

"functions contributing to the the makeup of of our brains and then as n analyzed in his own way and others have analyzed in different ways I mean we abstract this as well we have both good good and an..."

"care a little less about our cousins and even less about our fifth cousins I mean there are many particularities to human values which whether they're good or evil depends on your on on on your perspe..."

"Southern California so we we had flies that were evolved by artificial selection to have five times a lifespan of normal fruit flies but the population of super long live flies was physically sitting ..."

"versus self-organization as you mentioned so clearly they are evolutionary roots to individual and group selection leading to a mix of selfishness and altruism on the other hand different cultures man..."

"perception also because many Stone Age cultures perceived themselves as living in great material abundance that they had all the food and water they wanted they lived in a beautiful place that they ha..."

"colonizing Mars first of all it's it's a super cool thing to do we we we should be doing it so you're you're you love the idea yeah I mean it's more important it's more important than making chocolati..."

"that that that we are but I mean who knows we may cryopreserve ourselves in some Superior way to what we know now and like shoot ourselves out to Alpha centurum Beyond I mean that's all cool it's very..."

"human or non-human life in in in in this part of the universe o o over the next decades you think AGI is really AI is is by far the most important thing that's on the horizon and then technologies tha..."

"motivated to do so that's why I said a a benevolent AGI there could be other kinds maybe it's good to step back a little bit I mean we've been using that term AGI people often cite you as the Creator ..."

"I think he may have been have just started doing his PhD with uh Marcus Hooter who at that time hadn't yet published his book Universal AI which sort of gives a mathematical foundation for artificial ..."

"then oh that makes a lot of sense we use that for the we use that for the title of the book and so I think I maybe both Shane and Peter think they invented the term but but then later after the book w..."

"and then General well if you look at Marcus Hooter's book Universal what he argues there is is you know within the domain of computation Theory which is limited but interesting so if you assume comput..."

"we have to work with now intelligence infinitely General you mean like yeah information processing perspective yeah yeah in intelligence is not very well- defined either right I mean what what what wh..."

"the first open- Source machine learning toolkit which was launched in I guess '93 or '94 when I was at wada University written in Java unfortunately written in Java which was a cool language back then..."

"yeah so so yeah anyway I mean Andre John Andreas had his probability Theory based reinforcement learning Proto AGI John clear was trying to do much more ambitious probabilistic AGI systems now John cl..."

"was a lot going on in AGI that did ultimately lay the groundwork for what we have today but there was there wasn't a community right and so when I when I started trying to pull together an AGI communi..."

"establishment and you know for the first time in some cases coming together with others who shared their passion for AGI and the technical seriousness about about working on it right and that I mean t..."

"then you couldn't really it would be very very edgy then to give a university Department seminar the mentioned AGI or human level AI it was more like you had to talk about something more short-term an..."

"leaders right which is a astounding transition but yet in the in the course of this transition I think a bunch of sub communities have formed and the community around the AGI conference series is cert..."

"at cvpr if you look at these uh eye clear you know um AGI is still seen as the outcast I would still I would say in these main machine learning in these main artificial intelligence uh conferences amo..."

"concept AGI out there sort of as part of their Public Image but I mean there there're certainly not there are other groups that are doing research that seems just as as as aiish to me I mean including..."

"is is astounding to those of us who've been at it for a while yeah but there's a marketing aspect to the term but in terms of actual full force research that's going on under the header of AGI it's cu..."

"level AI so I I I don't I don't think there's like one golden algorithm one one golden design that that that can that can work and I mean flying machines is the the much warant analogy here right like..."

"action it looks at all its history yeah and then it looks at all possible programs that it could use to make a decision yeah and it decides like which decision program would have let it make the best ..."

"and that that that I think is how our super AGI will create new AGI systems right but but and that's a very rough seems really inefficient that's a very Russian approach by the way like the whole fiel..."

"supposing someone makes a robust Quantum turning machine or or something right so I I I I think you know there there's been co-evolution of the the patterns of organization in the human brain and and ..."

"that's about the hardware side and and the software side which follows from that then regarding what are the requirements I I wrote the paper years ago on what I called the embodied communication prio..."

"he's using it as a sexy T yeah yeah yeah so I I what I called it was the embodied communication prior and can you maybe explain it a little bit yeah yeah what what I meant was you know what are we hum..."

"then starting from that you're starting to get a requirements analysis for for for human human level general intelligence and then that that leads you into cognitive science and you can look at say wh..."

"you can see there's multiple types of memory which are to some extent represented by different subsystems in the human brain so we have episodic memory which takes into account our life history and ev..."

"memory and learning in the human brain I mean you can back these all into embodied communication for controlling agents and in Worlds of of of solid objects now so if you look at building an AGI syste..."

"every human engineered system that flies that was were using that analogy before is built as well so do you find this at all appealing like there's been a lot of really exciting which I find strange t..."

"mean they tried to do that in sore but what they ultimately did is like take a neural deep neural net or something for perception and you includ as one of the one of the black boxes it's one it become..."

"that was was not learned right so yeah this this was this was clear to me a while ago and one of my hopes with the AGI Community was to sort of bring people from those two directions together that did..."

"representations but there's a layer of representation that seems to work well here got it right right right and so similarly you could have a link to a whole graph because a whole graph could repres p..."

"software framework right and and of course that's there's a lot there just from a scalable software engineering standpoint so you could use this I don't know if you've have you looked into the Steven ..."

"you could use it you could use it to do say biologically realistic neur neural networks for for for example and that's so that that's a framework what do agents and processes do do they grow the graph..."

"architectures as a small tangent can you comment on thoughts about neuromorphic Computing so like Hardware implementations of all these different kind of uh are you interested are you excited by that ..."

"my computational Neuroscience haton right with an AGI haton I'm just more interested in these hypergraph knowledge representation based architectures which which would benefit benefit more from from v..."

"graph designed is it uh in general supposed to be sparse and the operations constantly grow and change the graph yeah the graph is sparse and but is it constantly adding links and so on it is a self m..."

"connected to each other so in terms of the type system there are some links that are more neuronet like they just like have weights to get updated by heavan learning and activation spreads along them ..."

"each other solve combinatorial explosions by intervening inside each other's cognitive processes but that can only be done if the intermediate state of a logic engine The evolutionary learning engine ..."

"comprehensible form but but it doesn't come for free like what's what what's in the ai's mind is is incomprehensible to to a human unless you do some special work to make it comprehensible so on the o..."

"horrible mess so as as well as shift doing an implementation where the graph is its own object and the agents are separately scheduled we've also done a lot of work on how do you represent programs ho..."

"that's that's it's interesting but it's not the AGI goal so now what what we're looking at with our rebuilded the system 2.0 yeah we're also calling it true AGI so we're not quite sure what the what w..."

"State computation graph but you needed like real time access to that computation graph within our hyper graph and we we we certainly did it Alexa poov who leads our St Petersburg team wrote a great pa..."

"is the problem throw your AI system a huge body of text and have it learn the grammar of the language that produced that text so you're you're not giving it labeled examples so you're not giving it li..."

"was coming to when we're looking at grammar induction we tried to mine patterns out of the structure of the Transformer Network and you can but the patterns aren't what you want they're they're nasty ..."

"you know is welld designed for the hardware that that we have on on hand right right now so do you think we can create AGI before we understand how the brains I think I think that's probably that's pr..."

"recommend opencog first of all is open- source project there's a there's a Google group uh dis discussion list there's a GitHub repository so if anyone's interested in lending a hand with that aspect ..."

"opencog or or various other open- source a AGI oriented projects so would you say there's like Masters and phg thesises in there plenty yeah plenty of of course I mean the challenge is to find a super..."

"thing that displayed the human level intelligence and I had when he was alive I had many debates with with Marvin about about this idea and he I think uh he really thought the mind was more like a soc..."

"right yeah yeah yeah exactly so the yeah the idea with the global brain was you know maybe the AI won't just be in a program on one guy's computer but the AI will be you know in the internet as a whol..."

"know by way of their connectivity to to other other modules do you see instantiations of the same kind of you know maybe different versions of open Cog but also just the same version of open Cog and m..."

"like Java I mean these languages are amazing when when they first come out so then I came up with the idea that turned into Singularity that okay let's let's make a decentralized agent system where a ..."

"the blockchain is the fact that some data went along that channel so you can do so there's not a shared knowledge uh it's well the the identity of each agent is on the blockchain right on the ethereum..."

"and in some cases the individuals who started those projects were not were not well equipped to to actually solve the problems that they wanted so you think would you say that's the main bottleneck if..."

"right and so right now something like a decentralized blockchainbased a AGI framework or or narrow AI framework it's cool it's it's nice to have on the other hand if government start trying to T down ..."

"putting this kind of tool set out there if you compare to opencog what you could see is opencog allows tight integration of a few AI algorithms that share the same knowledge store in real time in in R..."

"looser coupling as as as you get get higher up in that hierarchy I mean you have that in biology you have that in in the internet as a just networking medium and I think I think that's what we're goin..."

"that that's that's fairly simple if you wrote an AI and want it listed on Like official Singularity net Marketplace which is which is on our website then we we have a a publisher portal and then there..."

"regulations being put into place and you could see that in the music industry right I mean Napster just happened and bit torrent just happened and now most people in my kids generation they're baffled..."

"including animals plants and superum beings and David he wanted exactly the same thing but he had a different idea of of how to do it he wanted to get computational compassion like he wanted to get ma..."

"and Hardware manufacturer ecosystem in Shenzhen across the border which is like the only place in the world that makes sense to make complex consumer electronics at large scale and low cost it's just ..."

"there's computer vision to recognize people's faces recognize when someone comes in the room and leaves try to recognize whether two people are together or not I mean the dialogue system it's a mix of..."

"and like using various deep neural architectures and to improve the way these Transformer models are trained but in the end neither one of them really understands what's going on and I mean that's the..."

"right now of course uh many people have prescribed much greater prescribed essentially AGI type of capabilities to Sophia when they see her and of course um friendly French folk like uh Yan laon IM im..."

"have stopped being being pissed off whereas folks like Yan Lun have remained pissed off after their after their after their initial well their initial re his thing that's his thing yeah I think that i..."

"100% 100% correct I'll tell you what yeah this wasn't Sophia this was Philip K dick but we did some actions between humans and Philip KCK robot in Austin Texas a few years back and in this case the Ph..."

"intelligent uh I I I played with her last one actually with the spot mini yeah very cool I mean it it reacts quite in a fluid and and flexible way right but we immediately ascribe the kind of intellig..."

"they talk to her they still attribute more agency and Consciousness to her than than is is is really there so I think there's there's a couple levels of ethical issue there one issue is should you be ..."

"good for the world and it's a very cool playground for for like putting deep neural it's an open Cog together so we have like a bio adom Space full of all sorts of Knowledge from many different biolog..."

"people weren't seeing otherwise because the thing in this cases for each combination of antivirals you may have only a few patients who've tried that combination and those few patients may have their ..."

"I've been I've been doing bio AI die since 2001 but mostly human longevity research and fly longevity research try to understand why some organisms really live a long time this is the first time like ..."

"malaria after so long and after the Gates Foundation and others putting putting so much so much money in into it I mean I think clearly the whole Global Medical system Global health system and the glo..."

"that government has and I think that's much more likely to do good than trying to like explicitly reform the global government system I mean I'm happy other people are trying to explicitly reform the ..."

"the universe into paper clips or or computronium because what you have here is mostly good-hearted and nice people who are sucked into a mode of organization right of large corporations which has evol..."

"cool projects you're coding stuff that gets used by like billions and billions of of people and you think if I improve this feature that's making billions of people's lives easier right so of course o..."

"the best we got yeah I mean you can you can there's Iceland very nice country right I mean very de Democratic for 800 plus years very very benevolent beneficial government and the I think yeah there a..."

"it it's a good song uh tell me why do you think it is a good thing that we all get old and die is one of the songs I love the way it sounds but let me ask you about death first do you think there's an..."

"yeah so if you could live forever would you live forever forever I my my goal with longevity research is to abolish the plague of involuntary death I don't think people should die unless they choose t..."

"push back again this the Russian side of me I do romanticize suffering it's non obvious I mean the way you put it it's seems very logical it's almost absurd to to romanticize suffering or pain or deat..."

"would be there just to confess a small thing I'm uh don't ask me why but I'm I'm doing this physical challenge currently where I'm doing 680 push-ups and pull-ups a day and and my shoulder is currentl..."

"might not be true that humans need a certain element of suffering to be satisfied humans consistent with the human physiology if it is true that's one of the things that makes us and disqualified to b..."

"there um we've been skirting around a little bit but if I were to ask you the most ridiculous big question of what is the meaning of life uh what would your answer be three values Joy growth and choic..."

"maybe even finding ways to go beyond the realm of matter that as as we understand it right now so I think in a practical sense much of the meaning I see in human life is to create something better tha..."

"prolongation of of human life but we could do a do a lot better so for example The extracellular Matrix which is a bunch of proteins in between the cells in your body they get stiffer and stiffer as y..."

"after the last financial crisis Obama who I generally like pretty well but he gave $4 trillion do to large Banks and insurance companies you know now in this covid crisis trillions are being spent to ..."

"like then I would do that or emit emit a bit string which uh will be the the code for a super AGI on the Intel i7 processor right so those would be good questions so if you're on mind was expanded to ..."

"to put your mind into into a dolphin or a space amoeba or all sorts of other things or you can imagine one version that doubled its intelligence every year and another version that just became a super..."

"values to get to that future we need to na navigate through a whole lot of human of companies and and governments and and killer drones and making and losing losing money and and so and so forth right..."

"bifurcation point now right where where what we do now has significant causal impact on what comes about and yet most people on the planet aren't thinking that way whatsoever they're thinking only abo..."

"scale corporate leadership position right it's it's terrible how little understanding of these fundamental issues exists out there now that may be different five or 10 years from now though because I ..."