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Google Photos Product Lead and Bump Cofounder David Lieb with Gustaf Alströmer
43 segments available
David Lieb is the Product Lead for Google Photos. Prior to working on Google Photos, David was the cofounder and CEO of Bump, which was in the Summer 2009 batch of YC. https://twitter.com/dflieb https://photos.google.com/ Gustaf Alströmer is a Partner at YC. https://twitter.com/gustaf The YC podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon. https://twitter.com/craigcannon *** Topics 00:10 - How Bump became one of the biggest apps on the App Store 3:24 - Bump was the billionth app downloaded on iOS 5:42 - David's YC interview 7:45 - Bump's goal during YC 9:40 - Experiments at Bump before working on photos 10:45 - How Bump grew 12:00 - How David thinks about product market fit 13:00 - Flock and talking with the top users of Bump 17:30 - Going upstream in photo sharing, becoming the camera roll 19:00 - Being a photo sharing power user and how that helped when building a product 21:40 - Fundraising 25:40 - Deciding that Photo Roll would work better within a big company and building it at Google 29:10 - When building a product, pretend there's a person doing that task for you in the best possible way then try to build that 31:20 - How David spends his time running Google Photos 33:15 - How David feels about his work at Google after being a startup founder 34:45 - When to apply AI 36:50 - Attention to the user vs the technology 37:30 - Talking to users at scale 40:30 - Lamide Akomolafe asks - What did David focus on too much as a rookie product lead that he thinks was a mistake now? 42:15 - Getting confidence to ship features to a billion users 44:45 - Generating support for a project within a big company 46:30 - In 5-10 years will David be working for a large or small company? 47:55 - When thinking about an acquisition, can you execute your vision in a larger way within the company? 49:40 - Larger truths about people learned by paying so much attention to photos and memories 51:15 - Giving everyone a photographic memory and deciding which photos are important 52:25 - Products David likes and the importance of solving a durable human need
Segments Timeline
The Birth of Bump
David Lieb shares the origins of Bump, detailing how he transitioned from engineering to business school and identified a problem in sharing contact information. He recounts the serendipitous meeting with co-founders and the initial development of the app, which aimed to simplify the process of exchanging phone numbers.
"welcome to the podcast guests hey thanks thank you so much so today we have David liebe he is a product director at Google specifically for Google photos what some people might not know is you are als..."
From Idea to App Store
Lieb discusses the journey of launching Bump on the App Store, highlighting the novelty of the app and its initial slow growth. He emphasizes the importance of media coverage and strategic outreach to journalists, which played a crucial role in gaining visibility and traction for the app.
"built an app that looked for open Wi-Fi networks and it just like told you which ones were open and which ones had a had like a pay or whatever it's called a password and he made two hundred thousand ..."
The Billionth Download
David recounts the moment Bump became the billionth app downloaded from the App Store. He describes the excitement and pressure of handling the sudden surge in users and the pivotal role that Apple’s marketing played in catapulting Bump into the spotlight.
"he was like I think androids gonna be bigger and I said let's start with iPhone I think it'll be better and so we just started hacking away and trying to build this app to make it easier to share your..."
The Power of YC Network
Lieb reflects on the value of the Y Combinator network during a critical moment when Bump's servers crashed due to overwhelming traffic. He shares how fellow YC founders came to their rescue, illustrating the collaborative spirit and support within the startup community.
"very non obvious that apps are gonna be big I remember watching the after first like fart apps yeah you know like silly trivial things and I think a lot of people viewed bump as a silly trivial thing ..."
Navigating the YC Interview
David describes his experience during the Y Combinator interview process, highlighting the unique approach of the interviewers and their focus on understanding the team dynamics. He shares a memorable moment when Paul Graham posed a bold question about Bump's potential to surpass Google.
"and then I did this little hack where I took his article and I forwarded it to like the next highest person on the like journalism Reich and I think I mailed it to David Pogue at the New York Times I ..."
Defining Success Metrics
Lieb discusses the metrics Bump focused on during its early days at Y Combinator, emphasizing user engagement and frequency of use. He reflects on the lessons learned regarding retention and the importance of understanding user behavior for long-term success.
"a call from the woman who runs all of developer relations from Apple and she's like hey good morning you were the billionth app downloaded yesterday we'd like to you know tell the world about it but I..."
Challenges of User Retention
David elaborates on the challenges Bump faced with user retention, explaining how a large user base does not guarantee frequent usage. He shares insights on the need for businesses to create value in each user interaction to sustain growth.
"app for it and then people might remember and we were part of that and we didn't really know we were gonna be a part of it the way Apple works is they're very secretive they say like would you please ..."
Exploring New Ideas
Lieb talks about the various ideas Bump explored to monetize the app, including in-app purchases and a freemium model. He explains how these attempts ultimately led to the realization that a more sustainable business model was necessary.
"time and I said does anybody like there's anybody an expert at this they came over to our office and just sat in our desks and they said like step away from the keyboards we'll fix it and they just to..."
The Role of Word-of-Mouth
David highlights the significance of word-of-mouth marketing in Bump's growth, explaining how users' enthusiasm for the app drove its popularity. He reflects on the unexpected advantages of the app's chicken-and-egg problem in user acquisition.
"like reading TechCrunch a buncha we like kept seeing this thing called Y Combinator I was like what is that and it turns out we knew a couple people who had gone through it already and so we went and ..."
Understanding Product-Market Fit
Lieb shares his thoughts on product-market fit, emphasizing its subjective nature and the challenges of scaling a product to a larger audience. He discusses the importance of continuously assessing fit as user demographics evolve.
"Paul said give us your phone so we want to try it and I was like okay so I hand our phones over to him and they just start playing around like RTM was like I'm gonna try to hack it and break it like l..."
Transitioning to Flock
David introduces Flock, the next project after Bump, explaining how it aimed to address the contact-sharing problem by integrating photo-sharing features. He discusses the evolution of their product strategy and the lessons learned from Bump.
"than Google and I was like dude are you crazy but that just shows like how he thinks that like you can take something that seems so frivolous at the beginning it turned into something potentially that..."
Understanding Product Market Fit
David Lieb discusses the concept of product market fit, emphasizing its subjective nature and the challenges of measuring it across different customer bases. He reflects on Bump's experience and how product market fit can vary as a company scales, particularly in the context of Google Photos, where different user groups have distinct needs.
"what we thought was gonna be an inhibitor to growth which is this chicken and egg problem like I you can't use it unless I have it actually turned out to be the driving force behind our distribution b..."
User Insights Drive Product Development
David shares how user feedback shaped Bump's evolution, particularly when they discovered that users preferred sharing photos over contacts. This insight led to the development of Flock, a photo-sharing app that aimed to reduce friction in sharing experiences among friends and family.
"after after bump you guys tried another product it's just so flock came it came around tell us about that yeah so we built bump to share the contact sharing problem and people started using it for tha..."
The Challenge of User Adoption
Despite the innovative features of Flock, David explains the struggle of user adoption, highlighting the importance of having core utility for initial users. He discusses the concept of 'come for the tool, stay for the network,' and how Flock's reliance on convincing friends to join hindered its success.
"okay so there's clearly a problem in the photo sharing space amongst your like friends or family but the product we built is like kind of the most hard product to use to solve that problem because bot..."
Going Upstream in Photo Sharing
David reflects on the lessons learned from Flock, leading to the realization that to solve the photo-sharing problem effectively, they needed to integrate deeper into the user experience by becoming the camera roll itself. This strategic shift aimed to enhance user engagement and simplify sharing.
"that allowed us to kind of marry those two insights and create this product flock so flock looked at your Facebook friends and figured out when you took a photo at the same time as when your other fri..."
Emotional Understanding of Photo Sharing
David discusses the emotional connection to photo sharing and how personal experiences influenced their understanding of user needs. He emphasizes the importance of being a power user to identify gaps in the market and create solutions that resonate with everyday users.
"and so that led us to the third product that we built well what gives you that insight though that you needed to go upstream but basically none of our friends were using it and we asked them into life..."
Identifying Unmet Needs in Photo Management
David elaborates on the unmet needs in photo management that emerged from their experiences with Flock and the limitations of existing solutions. He highlights the importance of addressing these issues to create a more effective photo-sharing product.
"like to think that we intellectually understood it but I don't think we did I think we more emotionally understood it or personally understood it and I think we we really use this technique that pg ta..."
The Birth of Photo Roll
In this segment, David introduces Photo Roll, a product designed to be a better photo gallery app. He explains how it integrates features from Flock and aims to enhance the user experience by simplifying photo sharing among friends.
"product so the third product we built was this product we called photo roll it was really like a better photo gallery app if this was right on the heels of when inbox launched I don't know if people r..."
Fundraising Insights and Challenges
David shares insights from their fundraising journey, discussing the ease of raising capital due to Bump's popularity and the challenges of managing investor expectations. He reflects on the importance of having a clear vision and the implications of raising too much money too quickly.
"photo sharing behavior unfortunately we have this great insight like kind of at the end of our runway from our twenty million dollars that we had raised and we realized okay this photo product is a wi..."
The Fundraising Journey
David Lieb shares his experience with fundraising during Y Combinator, highlighting how Bump attracted millions of users and investor interest. He reflects on the ease of raising funds, the importance of knowing how to utilize the money, and the lessons learned about managing investor expectations and capital discipline.
"that was our kind of like investment thesis for dropping out of business school and doing this is it's working Mobile's gonna be big we got to give it a shot I think that was the same way that how was..."
Raising Money with Purpose
In this segment, David discusses the strategic considerations behind raising capital. He advises entrepreneurs to only raise funds when they have a clear plan for its use, emphasizing the risks of taking on too much money without a defined purpose. He shares insights on balancing investor expectations with the need for disciplined financial management.
"should I take it with that extra dilution and my advice typically well if you have discipline and you can put half of the money in a different Bank County don't touch it for 12 or 18 months that you s..."
The Decision to Join Google
David reflects on the pivotal decision to join Google after Bump's acquisition. He discusses the alignment of Bump's mission with Google's goals, particularly in organizing and making photos universally accessible. This segment highlights the cultural fit and the long-term vision that influenced their choice.
"looked at photo role and we were like people are gonna love this it's gonna be big if we could get it to be like distributed or part of an operating system like either Apple or Google we think it woul..."
Building Google Photos
In this segment, David explains how the acquisition of Bump led to the creation of Google Photos. He describes the integration of Bump's insights into photo management with Google's technological capabilities, including AI and large-scale photo storage, to enhance user experience.
"another reason that what was their lead you know the Android team it was her photos team do you join it was a Picasa back in the days right so yeah Google has been on the photos trajectory for a while..."
Designing with a Human Touch
David shares his design philosophy for Google Photos, emphasizing the importance of creating a product that acts like a personal assistant. He discusses how understanding user needs and behaviors informed the development of features that enhance photo management and sharing.
"perfect fit and and what I think we brought to the table as photo roll was this insight around like how do people think about their photos what is the right design of a product how do you build these ..."
Daily Life at Google Photos
David provides insight into his daily responsibilities as the Product Lead for Google Photos. He outlines how he allocates his time across strategy, team development, product improvement, and operational tasks, showcasing the diverse nature of his role in a large organization.
"dad who's my sister who's my girlfriend and he would like write on the back of each of those photos metaphorically like this one contains mom and dad this one contains Jenna and then we were like well..."
From Startup to Corporate Culture
David discusses the transition from a startup environment to a large company like Google. He reflects on the cultural alignment and autonomy he experienced, emphasizing how the integration of Bump into Google felt like an expansion rather than a loss of identity.
"very well that model what's your date day today to look like today when you've come into work at Google like how does it like to to run one of the 17 billion building the user apps in the world right ..."
Harnessing AI for Real Problems
In this segment, David explores the effective application of AI in products like Google Photos. He distinguishes between problems that AI can solve at scale versus those that require human intervention, providing insights into how startups can leverage AI to enhance their offerings.
"actually after after kind of having that insight at Google when I invest in companies this is a question I explicitly asked them is if you could go acquire a big company with the purpose of furthering..."
User-Centric Product Development
David emphasizes the importance of focusing on user needs rather than just technology. He reflects on Google's shift towards user-centricity under Sundar Pichai's leadership, highlighting how this approach has influenced the development of Google Photos and improved user experience.
"payoffs if you can get it right so that's how I think about it so my advice to people who are like an AI startup is tell me which of those two are you like are you trying to solve this unsolvable huma..."
Scaling User Feedback
Lieb contrasts the user feedback process at Google Photos with his experience at Bump. He shares how the volume of feedback at scale makes it challenging to engage directly with users, and discusses the methods Google employs to gather and interpret user insights effectively.
"just really played out in the form of Google photos is it different to talking to users at scale when you bill users versus when you're going to startup how is the different yeah I've got a tab open i..."
Empathy in User Research
David shares his experiences conducting user testing in informal settings, like bars, to gather genuine feedback. He discusses the challenges of maintaining empathy and understanding user needs at scale, and the importance of interpreting user feedback accurately.
"google employees like yeah go to bars and ask people what they think it's not gonna work so you know I would say it's an area that that in general could probably be improved is how do you create these..."
Learning from Early Mistakes
Reflecting on his early days as a product lead, Lieb discusses the pitfalls of focusing too much on technical performance rather than user needs. He cites Sam Altman's insight about startups often failing due to working on the wrong problems, emphasizing the need for a broader perspective.
"in building what you think is right yeah absolutely so a question from Twitter related to products lamby day acha acha mola Fay hopefully I got that right asks what did David focus on too much that he..."
Confidence in Shipping Products
David outlines the processes Google Photos employs to ensure confidence before launching new features to a massive user base. He discusses the importance of internal testing, user feedback, and iterative experiments to validate product decisions.
"trap that you can fall in which is like oh this is not as good as it could be we should make it better where even if you made it perfect it doesn't matter and actually you needed to work on this other..."
Navigating Large Organizations
Lieb reflects on the challenges of transitioning from a startup founder to a product lead at Google. He shares insights on building support within a large organization and the importance of grassroots advocacy to drive product initiatives.
"step is do we like it and often you know I challenge our team where we've we've like done experiments we've run stuff we we were like about to launch something and I just asked the team I'm like what ..."
The Future of Work: Startups vs. Big Companies
In a thought-provoking discussion, David contemplates his future career path, weighing the impact he can have at a large company like Google against the raw, hands-on experience of startups. He emphasizes the significance of affecting billions of users positively through meaningful products.
"see there are two problems and they're wrapped together the the the meta problem that I made met a mistake I made was I really believed in this vision for what we could build in the photo space so muc..."
Grassroots Support in Big Companies
David Lieb discusses the importance of grassroots support when navigating challenges in a large company like Google. He emphasizes the value of engaging with team members who are directly involved in product development, gathering diverse opinions, and presenting a united front to leadership to advocate for effective solutions.
"was how can you do that at a big company and I have learned now is you can really get a lot of support at the grassroots level so what when I ran into these problems going up the stack at Google I kin..."
The Impact of Google Photos
Lieb reflects on his role at Google Photos, highlighting the potential to positively affect billions of users. He contrasts the reach of working at a large company with the rawness of startups, emphasizing the significance of creating meaningful experiences that capture and preserve memories.
"let's look at it objectively and decide what we should do in five or ten years do you see yourself working for a large company or startup that's a great question I love startups I love the the rawness..."
Executing Vision in Large Companies
David shares insights on the critical question of whether one can execute a vision for a larger audience within a big company. He stresses the importance of alignment in vision and the potential pitfalls of misalignment, especially during acquisitions, which can lead to disastrous outcomes.
"not many products can do that and then on the importance or depth of the of the experience I believe there's not a lot of things more valuable to you than the record of your life your your memories ri..."
Challenges of Acquisitions
Lieb discusses the complexities of acquisitions, noting that many fail due to a lack of alignment in vision. He reflects on his experiences at Google, emphasizing the need for meaningful conversations with potential partners to ensure shared goals and successful integration.
"question to answer yeah yeah and a corollary is if you don't have that alignment and you do go to that company it's going to be a disaster yeah basically most acquisitions don't turn out well and it's..."
The Power of Nostalgia
David explores the profound impact of nostalgia on human experience, sharing insights gained from his work with photos. He highlights how memories are tied to significant moments in life and the innate human desire to reflect on the past, suggesting that this understanding can inform product development.
"quite right so it's it's this like asymmetric problem and now that I'm on the other side at Google like I try to empathize with my former self yeah and like you know we've done acquisitions that photo..."
Creating a Photographic Memory
Lieb outlines Google Photos' goal to provide users with a 'photographic memory.' He discusses the challenges of identifying which moments are significant and how to help users engage with their most important memories while filtering out less relevant content.
"nostalgia I think we all feel it and we all know that feeling but seeing it from the perspective that I get to see it it's one of the most powerful things in the human experience I think and and we've..."
Navigating Memory and Experience
David addresses the difficulty of managing memories in Google Photos, particularly the challenge of distinguishing between memories users want to revisit and those they prefer to forget. He acknowledges the complexity of this task and expresses a desire to improve the user experience in this area.
"humans but it is a really powerful phenomenon have you mM everything in Fast and Slow wait talks about so like how important for the graphic memories are for happiness yeah I haven't I totally believe..."
Innovative Consumer Products
Lieb shares his perspective on emerging consumer products, emphasizing the importance of addressing durable human needs. He discusses his interest in technology that enhances everyday experiences, such as food and healthcare, and the challenge of identifying products that will have lasting impact.
"want to improve yeah so I've one final question as a product lead I was we had similar role a a B & B I spent a lot of time looking at other products and new products what are you top like other new a..."
Understanding Consumer Needs
David reflects on the evolution of consumer products, noting the difference between fleeting trends and essential human needs. He emphasizes the importance of understanding what drives user engagement and how successful products amplify existing behaviors to create lasting value.
"world today movie we were like oh it definitely is seven years ago yeah it's we've like developers have gone and like figured out all the obvious wins already in the consumer space and the ones that e..."