"the following is a conversation with jay baracaria professor of medicine health policy and economics at stanford university please allow me to say a few words about lockdowns and the blinding destruct..."

"to our best understanding today how deadly is coveted do we have a good measure for for this very question so the the best evidence for covet the deadline to covet comes from a whole series of zero pr..."

"uh we don't know exactly the number of people with cove just by counting the people that are there to present themselves with symptoms of covid um covet has it turns out a very wide range of symptoms ..."

"tens of thousands of dollars extra per per covered patient um and the other thing they did is they they gave a 20 bump to medicare payments for elderly patients who are treated with covet the idea is ..."

"about this i mean it's a philosophical question right like ultimately what kills you it's which is an odd thing to say if you if you're if you're not you're not in medicine but like really it's it's a..."

"freudian uh psychotherapy session but across the world something that uh psychologists are gonna have a field day with for generation trying to understand um i mean i think that i mean what you say is..."

"meant to live apart from one another that's of course the ideology of lockdown is to make people live apart alone isolated so that we don't spread diseases to each other right but we're not actually d..."

"it's lower 0.05 but there's not a single sharp cut off it's more like i have a rule of thumb that i use um so if you're 50 say the infection fatality rate from covalent is 0.2 according to the zero pr..."

"positive as a false positive 0.5 of the time um and then you know like a false negative rate about 10 12 something like that i don't remember the exact number but the false positive rate is the import..."

"we did this facebook sampling scheme um which is i mean not not the ideal thing but just like it was very difficult to get a random sample on and during the you know during lockdown um where we put ou..."

"so for every case that had been reported to the public health authorities we found that you know you know 40 or 50 other infections people with antibodies in their blood that suggested that they'd had..."

"worldwide so we did these studies and it generated an enormous amount of blowback by people who thought that the infection rate is much higher and there's some controversy over the quality of some of ..."

"this sometimes surprises people because they think well it's a it's a virus it should have the same properties no matter where it goes but the virus kills or infects or hurts in interaction with the h..."

"coveted infected patients back to nursing homes to keep hospitals empty what do you mean by differentially infected the policy that you adopt determines who is most exposed right that okay so that's w..."

"which do so like using ventilators like the the over reliance on ventilators is what i'm primarily thinking of but i can think of other things um but that that uh also we've learned over time how bett..."

"response to that it's very unpleasant to hear even to consider the possibility that the death rate is not as high as you might otherwise as you might feel yeah i was surprised by the reaction both by ..."

"like when we so um we released the the santa clara study via this open open science process and this uh server called med med archive it's it's designed for releasing studies have not yet been pre-rev..."

"if we can just get the virus to go away we won't have to ever worry about it again the main problem with our result as far as that strategy was concerned wasn't the death rate it was the 40 to 50 time..."

"for h1n1 not the three three like a hundredfold difference so this made you think okay it took us a couple of two to three years to discover the truth behind the actual infections uh for a h1n1 and th..."

"where does kovitz stand yeah the flu is a very serious thing it kills you know 50 60 000 people a year something i found that order depending on the the particular strain that goes around uh that's in..."

"i'm going to get the number wrong but something like 70 80 percent of the deaths are people over the age of 60. well we've talked about the fear the whole time really but my interaction with folks now..."

"will be by the you know that's not that's not like but would we cross i think it's in the united states it's uh the way the desk currently reports like 800 000 something like that do you think we'll c..."

"yeah and and then there's i think studies and discussions like the the best protection would be to get it and then also to get vaccinated and then a lot of people push back against that for the obviou..."

"science and also kindness respect and love and human things francis collins wrote a letter in october 2020 to anthony fauci anything somebody else i have um the letter oh it's not a letter email i apo..."

"but i don't i haven't read my old emails maybe i'm pretty sure sometimes later i could be an asshole well i mean look he's a christian and i'm a christian i'm supposed to forgive right i mean i think ..."

"alternate path that that the path we've chosen this path of lock down with an aim to suppress the virus to zero effectively i mean that was unstated um cannot work and is causing catastrophic harm to ..."

"one so how does a democratic uh government deal with that challenge uh so to me that you asked me how i felt i was actually frankly just i was i i suspected there had been some email exchanges like th..."

"of francis collins was actually frankly a disappointment because i i've looked up to him for years yeah i've looked up them as well i um i mean i look for the the best in people and i still look up to..."

"the same kind of arrogance that you see when tony fauci gets on tv and says that uh that if you criticize me you're not simply criticizing a man you're criticizing science itself right right that is a..."

"declaration what i was hoping for was a discussion about how to protect the vulnerable i mean that was the key idea to me in the whole thing was better protection of the older population who really at..."

"was a propaganda term to hit the fear centers of people's brains oh these people are immoral they just want to let the virus go through society and hurt everybody that was that was that was the idea t..."

"beings can be like this to each other and then i i went back to just a double check is this really how many people are here is this theater and then i uh asked to come on stage on clubhouse to make a ..."

"in this email and i really would love to have a million things to talk about to try to figure out how can we find a path forward i think a lot of a lot of the problems we've seen in the the discussion..."

"in face of those constraints but underneath it at the individual level at the institutional level it seems like um arrogance is really destructive so the flip side of that the productive thing is humi..."

"what you said earlier lex the purpose of nih is to support the work of scientists to some extent it's also how to help scientists to direct scientists to work on things that are very important for pub..."

"role where he defines some of the public policy like you know depending on how he thinks about the world millions of people could die because of one decision he make yeah and that's a lot of burden to..."

"that's what i look for when i when i listen to podcasts like yours um is is an understanding of that of that of that person and the moment and how they dealt with it i mean i guess the hope is to disc..."

"what are your thoughts on the safety and efficacy of covered vaccines at the individual and the societal level so for the the vaccine safety data it's it's actually challenging to convey to the public..."

"were pretty safe and quite effective at preventing both you from getting covid actually i think the main endpoint of the trial itself was a symptomatic covet right so um uh so that was like that was y..."

"covered let's separate because this seems to be um there's critics of both categories but different kids and kids and old not older people like uh let's say five years old and above or something like ..."

"for sure in the pandemic in january of la of this year 2021 i thought that the vaccines would stop infection yes right it would would make it so that you were much less likely to be infected at all be..."

"fact they're i mean i don't know to which agree they're not i mean i think it's it's a little complicated because i think the first two or three months after you're fully vaccinated after the second d..."

"from in terms of it seems like obviously a vaccine is a powerful solution to let us open this thing up yeah so i wrote a wall street journal op-ed with sinatra gupta in december of last year yes a ver..."

"before the election and then after the election the the rhetoric switched on a dime right all of a sudden it's republicans that are cast as if they're vaccine hesitant that kind of political shift the..."

"result let me ask you about i've recently had a conversation with the pfizer ceo this is part therapy session part advice because i again i really want us to get through this together and it feels lik..."

"it's not obvious to me i don't see where the manipulation is so the fear that people have and i talked to joe about this quite a bit i i think this is a legitimate fear and and a fury should often hav..."

"not have happened without companies like pfizer um on the other hand the there is this sort of corrupting influence of that money uh uh just to give you one example uh there's a there's an enormous co..."

"that uh you can't just dismiss people period yeah well i mean i think here here take ivermectin right there's actually a study funded by the nih by tony fauci's nia id and the nih um called active six..."

"the fact that young people see the the bullshit of this young phd students graduate students young students in college they see the the less than stellar way that our scientific leaders and our politi..."

"conference where he was inviting me and sinatra gupta who was a professor of theoretical epidemiology at harvard at oxford university and i mean i jumped at the chance uh because i knew that martin an..."

"way um it's you know like it's a go it's less than a page you can go look online and read it it's written written for not for scientists but for the general public so people can understand the ideas r..."

"in poor countries stopped because of lockdowns uh childhood vaccinations of measles rubella dpt diphtheria so on pertussis tetanus all those standard vaccination campaigns stopped tens of millions of ..."

"back to their villages or taking a train back a thousand died on route overcrowded trains dying essentially on the side of the road i mean it was it was absolutely inhumane policy uh and uh the lockdo..."

"point we close schools especially in blue states we close schools now richer parents could send their kids to private schools many of which stayed open even in the blue states they could get pods they..."

"non-laptop class people would lose their jobs yes there might be in the in the western world support for them financially but the the big loss there that is perhaps correlated with the depression and ..."

"we mentioned that there is so much priority given or so much power given to maybe nih versus um other civilian leaders or do people just not care about the economic pain the leaders i mean uh because ..."

"the economic harms matter but the but he's he he counseled me and i think he was he had his bet my best interest at heart like if if we were to put that in the story i would be i'd essentially be canc..."

"data starts coming in you start becoming more and more detached from the data you don't start carrying less and less and you start just swimming in the space of narratives like existing the space of n..."

"the resources are available in the community uh the the uh the technology is available to do this and so it's almost always going to be in fact it'll always be a local thing because it'll depend on th..."

"the hospital beds well for somebody who loves the miracle optimization i love the way you frame this but those are kind of connected right if you actually focus on protecting the vulnerable you will a..."

"groceries to them we did that for the laptop class right uh or or you can even just there's a volunteer effort you know the older people living next door just call them up and say can i help you get u..."

"you should just let just allow society to go on some disease will spread but as we've seen the lockdown didn't stop the disease from spreading anyways right so what do you make of the criticism that t..."

"so shaming around mask i mean a huge amount of effort on things that were only tangentially related to focus protection what if we turned our energy that enormous energy put into that instead into foc..."

"the question that's interesting here is about the future too uh so uh covet has very specific characteristics like you mentioned about the curve of the the the death rate based on the like it's it's u..."

"right so the polio epidemic in the 40s and 50s in the u.s the the great the people at most risk were children we didn't know really at the beginning there was this vehicle oral spread and so we did al..."

"laptop class populations and also we should probably expand the class of people who call vulnerable to those who would suffer who have the capacity to suffer given the policies they're you're weighing..."

"policy now for covet and we're not right so the vaccines are there's a great shortage in vaccines you wouldn't know it in the united states and in rich parts of the world but in there's a great shorta..."

"seems not well calibrated let's put it this way also pathological pathological is one way to put it given that i believe depending on the university but i think many universities require that the stud..."

"yeah this this the part i don't understand the discussion we're even having um okay let's leave focus protection aside here because that's a brilliant policy for perhaps for the future when there's no..."

"at this point yes because like uh it's already deeply integrated into the human civilization well i mean it's here forever right there's a zero survey of white-tailed deer in the u.s it turns out 80 p..."

"the universities should be fighting tooth and nail to not be shut down not the other way around yeah whatever the mechanisms that uh results in the universities doing that that's probably this is me t..."

"powerful exactly so i think um that fear is natural and it it uh it's not something that you have to you have to nest you have to stoke to get when the facts on the ground suggest it right uh in fact ..."

"you give them about their career and maybe about their life thinking about somebody in high school maybe an undergraduate college i'd say a few things one is this is a wonderful profession you have an..."

"guess is there a memory from when you were young that was very formative to you so you just gave advice to some young people is there something that stands out to you that uh a decision you made an ev..."

"but i i do i mean i just i think we can't help but we worry about the the well-being of our loved ones so from the perspective of god then let me ask you um what do you think is the meaning of this wh..."