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Francis Collins: National Institutes of Health (NIH) | Lex Fridman Podcast #238
45 segments available
Francis Collins is the director of the NIH and former head of the Human Genome Project. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Ten Thousand: https://www.tenthousand.cc/ and use code LEX to get 15% off - Allform: https://allform.com/lex to get 20% off - SimpliSafe: https://simplisafe.com/lex and use code LEX to get a free security camera - NI: https://www.ni.com/perspectives - Magic Spoon: https://magicspoon.com/lex and use code LEX to get $5 off EPISODE LINKS: Francis's Twitter: https://twitter.com/NIHDirector NIH: https://www.nih.gov Human Genome Project: https://www.genome.gov/human-genome-project PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 OUTLINE: 0:00 - Introduction 1:18 - Lab-leak theory 4:26 - Gain-of-function research of viruses 16:35 - Bioterrorism 21:04 - Tony Fauci 31:15 - COVID Vaccines 37:20 - Joe Rogan 44:23 - Variants 49:05 - Rapid at home testing 53:18 - Animal testing 58:44 - Stepping down as director of the NIH 1:02:37 - Barack Obama 1:04:40 - Accelerating Medicines Partnership 1:15:18 - Faith 1:20:47 - Fear of death 1:23:49 - Meaning of life SOCIAL: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman
Segments Timeline
Introducing Francis Collins
In this segment, Lex Fridman introduces Francis Collins, the director of the NIH, highlighting his significant contributions to science, including the Human Genome Project and the Brain Initiative. Collins is portrayed as a humble and thoughtful leader in the scientific community, appointed by three U.S. presidents, and a man of faith who has made a lasting impact on health and medicine.
"the following is a conversation with francis collins director of the nih the national institutes of health appointed and reappointed to the role by three presidents obama trump and biden he oversees 2..."
The Lab-Leak Theory
Francis Collins discusses the origins of COVID-19, addressing the lab-leak theory. He expresses skepticism about the likelihood of a lab leak but emphasizes the need for thorough investigation into the virus's origins, suggesting that it most likely has a natural origin. Collins reflects on the challenges of obtaining information from the Chinese government regarding the virus's early days.
"conversation with francis collins science at his best is a source of hope so for me it's been difficult to watch as it has during the pandemic become at times a source of division what i would love to..."
Science Amidst Political Tensions
Collins shares insights on conducting scientific research during a pandemic marked by political tensions. He emphasizes the importance of international collaboration in science, citing the Human Genome Project as a successful example. Collins laments the current state of scientific discourse, which has been affected by political divisions.
"and remember it takes a while to do this with sars it was 14 years before we figured out it was the civet cat that was the intermediate host with mers it was a little quicker to discover it was the ca..."
Understanding Gain-of-Function Research
In this segment, Collins explains the concept of gain-of-function research, clarifying its scientific meaning and the ethical implications surrounding it. He discusses the NIH's decision to lift the ban on this type of research, emphasizing its potential benefits in understanding and countering evolving pathogens while also acknowledging the associated risks.
"giving all the data away i was the person who was supposed to keep all that coordinated it was a wonderful experience and that included china that was sort of their first real entry into a big interna..."
The Benefits of Gain-of-Function
Collins elaborates on the positive aspects of gain-of-function research, particularly in cancer immunotherapy. He illustrates how enhancing immune function can save lives, countering the negative perception of gain-of-function research by providing examples of its beneficial applications in medicine.
"viruses i can and first let me say this term gain of function is causing such confusion that i need to take a minute and just sort of talk about what the common scientific use of that term is and wher..."
Risks of Enhanced Pathogens
Collins discusses the stringent oversight required for gain-of-function research involving potential pandemic pathogens. He explains the criteria that define enhanced potential pandemic pathogens (EPP) and the rigorous review process that ensures safety in such experiments, highlighting the balance between scientific advancement and public health safety.
"gain of function so that's where a lot of confusion has happened the kind of gain of function which is now subject to very rigorous and very carefully defined oversight is when you are working with an..."
Clarifying Misconceptions
In this segment, Collins addresses misconceptions surrounding the research conducted at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. He clarifies that the experiments did not meet the criteria for enhanced potential pandemic pathogens and emphasizes the importance of accurate information in the ongoing discussions about the origins of COVID-19.
"safely because we all know lab accidents can happen and i mean look at sars where there have been lab accidents and people have gotten sick as a result we don't want to take that chance unless there's..."
The Political Targeting of Dr. Fauci
Collins expresses concern over the political targeting of Dr. Anthony Fauci, highlighting Fauci's dedication to public health and his expertise in infectious diseases. He critiques the politicization of science and the detrimental effects it has on public trust and scientific discourse.
"to look at what epp means and what those experiments were would have to agree with what i just said what is the biggest reason it didn't cross that threshold is it because it wasn't jumping to humans ..."
Ethics of Gain-of-Function Research
Collins discusses the ethical considerations surrounding gain-of-function research, acknowledging the risks involved in studying potentially dangerous pathogens. He advocates for open discussions about the thresholds and regulations governing such research, emphasizing the need for a balanced approach to scientific inquiry.
"politicians there they often play games with black and white they try to sort of uh use the gray areas of science and then paint their own picture but i have a question about the gray areas of science..."
Future Risks of Research
In this segment, Collins reflects on the future of gain-of-function research and the potential risks it poses to humanity. He acknowledges the challenges of oversight as research becomes more accessible and emphasizes the importance of maintaining stringent controls to prevent catastrophic outcomes.
"there was three studies that passed that threshold with influenza that's a fascinating human question scientific question about ethics because you're playing like you said there's uh there's pros and ..."
The Risks of Gain-of-Function Research
Francis Collins discusses the ongoing debates surrounding gain-of-function research, particularly its potential to create serious human pathogens. He emphasizes the need for rigorous oversight and public discussion about the benefits and risks of such research, especially in light of the COVID-19 pandemic.
"result in a serious human pathogen has been front and center in many deliberations for a decade or more involved a lot of my time along the way by the way and has been discussed publicly on multiple o..."
Concerns Over Man-Made Viruses
Collins expresses his worries about the risks of man-made viruses escaping laboratories, especially as technology becomes more accessible. He highlights the importance of federal oversight in research and the potential dangers posed by individuals or groups with malicious intent.
"if we can briefly look out into the next hundred years on this i apologize for the existential questions but it seems obvious to me that as gain of function type of research and development becomes ea..."
The Threat of Incompetence in Biosecurity
Collins reflects on the risks posed by incompetence in biosecurity, citing past incidents like SARS leaking from labs. He stresses the need for strict biosecurity measures and the importance of accountability in research involving dangerous pathogens.
"to undertake this on purpose uh given the likelihood that they too uh would go down we don't imagine there are going to be bioweapons that only kill your enemies and don't kill you sorry we're too muc..."
The Role of International Oversight
Collins discusses the lack of international oversight in biosecurity and the challenges of enforcing ethical standards in scientific research. He emphasizes the need for stronger mechanisms to prevent nefarious activities related to pathogen research.
"look where we are with germline genome editing for humans for instance there's no enforcement mechanism there's just bully pulpits and governments that get to decide for themselves so you talked about..."
Defending Anthony Fauci
Collins defends Dr. Anthony Fauci against calls for his dismissal, arguing that the attacks on him are politically motivated and not based on truth. He highlights Fauci's commitment to science and the importance of trust in public health leadership.
"not continuing online of difficult questions we're gonna get to fun stuff after a while we will soon i promise you are the director of the nih you are dr anthony fauci's technically his boss yep you h..."
The Challenge of Trust in Science
Collins addresses the challenges of maintaining public trust in science during a pandemic. He discusses the need for leaders like Fauci to communicate effectively and honestly, even in the face of political attacks and misinformation.
"it's a circular argument they've decided they don't like tony so they make up stuff and they twist comments that he's made about things like gain a function where he's referring to the very specific g..."
The Importance of Humility in Leadership
Collins reflects on the importance of humility in leadership, particularly in science communication. He suggests that acknowledging mistakes can help build trust with the public, especially when dealing with complex and evolving situations like the COVID-19 pandemic.
"garners trust and when you're in a leadership position representing science especially in catastrophic events like the pandemic it feels like as a leader you have to go far above and beyond your usual..."
Navigating Uncertainty in Science Communication
Collins discusses the complexities of communicating scientific information during a crisis. He emphasizes the need to balance transparency with the potential for public panic, particularly regarding evolving recommendations about masks and vaccines.
"that at every moment i don't think him expressing more humility would change the fact that they're looking for a target of somebody to blame to basically distract people from the failings of their own..."
Vaccine Hesitancy and Public Perception
Collins empathizes with individuals hesitant about COVID-19 vaccines, acknowledging the confusion caused by conflicting information. He stresses the importance of listening to concerns and addressing the underlying fears that contribute to vaccine hesitancy.
"is that there was this distrust of science that's been brewing and i'm maybe you can correct me but i'm a little bit unwilling to fully blame the politicians because politicians play their games no ma..."
The Power of Science and Leadership Responsibility
Collins reflects on the responsibility of leaders in science to inspire trust and hope during a pandemic. He discusses the remarkable achievements of vaccine development and the need for leaders to communicate effectively to counteract division and distrust in science.
"i think you have more confidence in the ability to get beyond our current divisions uh than i do after seeing just how deep and dark they have become tony fauci has said multiple times the recommendat..."
The Role of Humility in Science
In this segment, Collins argues that the scientific community must adapt its communication style to foster trust and understanding. He believes that humility and love should guide discussions about science, especially in the face of skepticism. Collins emphasizes the importance of listening to people's experiences and fears, rather than asserting authority, to effectively address public health concerns.
"in a fashion that doesn't convey a message that you're smarter than the person you're talking to because that isn't going to help to really address what the substance is of the concerns but my heart g..."
Concerns About Joe Rogan's Influence
Collins addresses the controversy surrounding Joe Rogan's vaccine skepticism and his promotion of ivermectin. He expresses concern about the potential harm of Rogan's messages during a pandemic, highlighting the responsibility of public figures to convey accurate information. Collins underscores the importance of relying on scientific evidence and the dangers of misinformation in public health discussions.
"place but alex if there's something i'm really worried about in this country and it's not just this country but it's the one i live in is that we have another epidemic besides covet 19 and it's an epi..."
The Importance of Data in Vaccine Decisions
Collins discusses the necessity of data-driven decision-making regarding vaccines, particularly for healthy individuals and children. He acknowledges the value of skepticism but stresses the importance of consulting scientific evidence to inform choices about vaccination. Collins shares anecdotes of healthy individuals who suffered severe consequences from COVID-19, reinforcing the need for widespread vaccination.
"we're on and i'm usually an optimist well to give you an optimistic angle on this i actually think that this sense that there's no one place for truth it's just a thing that will inspire leaders and s..."
Worries About COVID Variants
In this segment, Collins expresses his concerns about the emergence of COVID-19 variants, particularly the delta variant. He explains how variants can evolve and spread rapidly, posing new challenges for public health. Collins emphasizes the importance of monitoring these variants and the potential need for vaccine adjustments to maintain efficacy against new strains.
"just challenges our leaders to uh go back and learn to be part of my french less and uh more kind and like you said to listen to listen to the experiences of people that are good people not not the on..."
The Future of Vaccine Efficacy
Collins discusses the ongoing research into vaccine efficacy against emerging variants of COVID-19. He highlights the adaptability of mRNA vaccines and the potential for rapid updates to address new strains. Collins reassures listeners about the current effectiveness of vaccines while acknowledging the uncertainty surrounding future variants and the importance of continued vigilance.
"believer too yes that is the question i have to ask you about uh he has gotten some flack in the mainstream media for not getting vaccinated and when he got coveted recently taking ivermectin as part ..."
Addressing Vaccine Reluctance
Collins outlines strategies to combat vaccine reluctance in the U.S., emphasizing the need to encourage vaccination among the 64 million unvaccinated adults. He discusses the importance of booster shots and the role of effective communication in persuading hesitant individuals to get vaccinated. Collins advocates for a comprehensive approach to public health that includes education and outreach.
"by kaiser or at least a hundred thousand of those were unnecessary deaths of unvaccinated people and for joe to promote that further even as this uh pandemic rages through our population is simply irr..."
The Challenge of Variants
Francis Collins discusses the ongoing challenge of COVID-19 variants and the importance of vaccination. He emphasizes the need for a diverse immune response and the potential for mRNA vaccines to adapt quickly to new strains. Collins highlights the critical role of reducing infections to prevent the emergence of variants, particularly in low and middle-income countries where vaccine access is limited.
"about each of these variants it's like uh it's always a pleasant surprise the vaccine seems to have still have efficacy and hooray for our immune system may i say because the vaccine immunized you aga..."
The Importance of Rapid Testing
Collins expresses frustration over the slow rollout of rapid at-home testing during the pandemic. He advocates for widespread testing as a means to empower individuals with information and reduce virus transmission. He discusses the NIH's efforts to accelerate diagnostics and the potential for millions of tests to be available, emphasizing the need for accessible and affordable testing solutions.
"seen happen repeatedly in the last 22 months i think i'm really surprised annoyed frustrated that testing rapid at home testing from the very beginning wasn't a big big part of the solution it seems f..."
Innovations in Home Testing
Collins shares insights on the NIH's initiative to support home testing innovations through the RADx program. He highlights the collaboration with small businesses and academic labs to develop effective testing solutions. The segment underscores the importance of rapid testing in controlling the spread of COVID-19 and the NIH's role in facilitating advancements in diagnostic technologies.
"yeah you i'm so with you we got off to such a bad start with testing and of course all the testing was being done for the first several months in big box laboratories where you had to send the sample ..."
Ethics in Animal Research
Collins addresses the ethical considerations surrounding animal research, particularly in light of recent controversies. He reflects on NIH's decision to halt chimpanzee research and the ongoing debates about the necessity of animal testing in biomedical research. The discussion emphasizes the balance between scientific advancement and ethical responsibility in research practices.
"need to be wow yeah that's a dream that's a dream for me it seems like an obvious solution engineering solution everybody's behind it it leads to hope versus division i love it okay a happy story a ha..."
Proud Achievements at NIH
As he prepares to step down, Collins reflects on his proudest achievements during his tenure at NIH. He discusses groundbreaking advancements in gene editing, single-cell biology, and the rapid development of COVID-19 vaccines. This segment highlights the transformative impact of NIH's research initiatives and the collaborative efforts that have propelled scientific progress over the past decade.
"animals um everybody's heart starts to be hurting when you see anything done that seems harmful to a dog or a cat i have a cat i don't have a dog and i i understand that completely that's why we have ..."
Conversations with President Obama
Collins shares memorable moments from his interactions with President Obama, particularly regarding scientific discussions. He describes Obama's deep understanding of science and technology, including artificial intelligence. This segment captures the significance of leadership in promoting science and the collaborative spirit fostered during Collins' directorship at NIH.
"and as nih director you have this convening power and this ability to look across the whole landscape of biomedical research and identify areas that are just like ready for something big to happen but..."
Bridging Public and Private Sectors
Collins explains his efforts to break down barriers between public and private sectors in science. He discusses the Accelerating Medicines Partnership (AMP), which fosters collaboration to advance research in critical areas like Alzheimer's and diabetes, emphasizing the need for open access in scientific endeavors.
"gave me hope as well and having those experiences oftentimes in a group i mean another example was trying to figure out how do we take what we've learned about the genome and really apply it at scale ..."
The Success of Accelerating Medicines Partnership
Collins details the success of AMP in fostering collaboration between academic scientists and pharmaceutical companies. He highlights the importance of shared goals and open access in advancing research, leading to significant projects in various fields, including Alzheimer's and gene therapy.
"to that is curiosity yeah it's i don't think he's even like he's trying to be a good leader he's legit curious yes legit that he almost like a kid in a candy store gets to talk to the world experts he..."
Rapid Response to COVID-19
Collins reflects on the rapid development of COVID-19 vaccines through the ACTIVE partnership. He describes how collaboration between industry, government, and academia enabled swift vaccine protocols and therapeutic trials, showcasing the power of teamwork in addressing public health crises.
"and over the course of that couple of years built a momentum behind three starting projects one on alzheimer's one on diabetes one on rheumatoid arthritis and lupus very different each one of them try..."
The Dance of Vaccine Development
Collins elaborates on the intricate process of vaccine development during the COVID-19 pandemic. He emphasizes the importance of early manufacturing and collaboration among various stakeholders, highlighting how this 'dance' of science and engineering led to successful vaccine deployment.
"the last 20 months accelerating covet 19 therapeutic interventions and vaccines we just had our leadership team meeting this morning it was amazing what's been accomplished that's a pretty much a hund..."
Stepping Down: A Leader's Reflection
Collins discusses his decision to step down as NIH director after 12 years, emphasizing the need for new leadership and vision in scientific organizations. He reflects on his time at NIH, the challenges faced, and the importance of allowing new perspectives to emerge.
"it's such a nice dance between engineering and the space of manufacturing the vaccines you know you start before the studies are complete you start making the vaccines just in case the if the studies ..."
The Legacy of the Human Genome Project
Collins reflects on the significance of the Human Genome Project and its impact on science and medicine. He shares the profound realization of mapping the human genome and its implications for understanding human biology and disease, emphasizing the ongoing journey of discovery.
"well no other nih director has served more than one uh president after being appointed by one you're sort of done and the idea of being carried over for a second presidency with trump and now a third ..."
Faith and Science: A Personal Journey
Collins shares his journey from atheism to faith, discussing the intersection of science and religion. He reflects on how his belief in God complements his scientific work, particularly in the context of medical advancements like COVID-19 vaccines, which he sees as both scientific achievements and answers to prayer.
"i think the right answer is you're just uh stepping down to focus on your music career [Laughter] but that that might not be a good plan for anything very sustainable uh but i i think that is a sign o..."
The Journey to Faith
Francis Collins shares his personal journey from atheism to Christianity, influenced by his medical studies and the search for meaning in life. He discusses the limitations of science in answering existential questions and how he found compelling reasons to believe in God, ultimately leading to his embrace of faith.
"and of science and society and in the individual human mind and heart like yours well i was not a person of faith when i was growing up i became a believer in my 20s influenced as a medical student by..."
Friendship with Christopher Hitchens
Collins reflects on his friendship with the late Christopher Hitchens, a prominent atheist. He recounts their intellectual exchanges and how their differing views on faith enriched his understanding of life, culminating in a bond that transcended their beliefs.
"and somewhat kicking and screaming i became a christian even though at the time as a medical student already interested in genetics people predicted my head would then explode because these were incom..."
Confronting Mortality
In this segment, Collins discusses his thoughts on mortality and the fear of death. He expresses a sense of peace as a person of faith, emphasizing the importance of making a meaningful impact during his remaining time on Earth.
"sam harris who feel differently sam wrote a rather famous op-ed in the new york times when i was nominated as the nih director saying this is a terrible mistake you can't no you can't ham you can't ha..."
Legacy and Impact
Collins reflects on his legacy and the profound experiences he has had throughout his career, from the Human Genome Project to his role at the NIH. He shares heartfelt stories from those he has impacted, emphasizing the importance of contributing positively to society.
"and there's nothing better uh for trying to figure out where you are with your own situation and your own opinions your own world views than encountering somebody who's completely in another space and..."
The Meaning of Life
Collins tackles the profound question of life's meaning, suggesting that our existence is brief but significant. He advocates for striving to make the world a better place and living out the principles of love and altruism as taught in the Sermon on the Mount.
"thomas jefferson sometimes it was faith and i knew it would always be really interesting so he's now gone yeah do you think about your own mortality are you afraid of death i'm not afraid i'm not look..."
Closing Thoughts
In the closing moments, Collins expresses gratitude for the conversation and reflects on the pursuit of knowledge and truth. He leaves the audience with a quote from Isaac Newton, highlighting the vastness of undiscovered truths in life.
"it's about francis um i'm truly humbled and inspired by both your brilliance and your humility and that you would spend your extremely valuable time with me today it was really an honor thank you so m..."