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Building minimum lovable products, stories from WeWork & Airbnb, and thriving as a PM | Jiaona Zhang
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Jiaona Zhang (JZ) is a product leader with a strong background in consumer products and extensive hiring and management experience. She is currently SVP of Product at Webflow as well as a lecturer at Stanford, where she teaches a graduate-level course on product management. Before Webflow, JZ was Head of Product for the Homes Platform at Airbnb and has also led product teams at Airbnb, WeWork, and Dropbox. In today’s episode, we discuss: • Building a “minimum lovable product” rather than a minimum viable product • How to create better roadmaps through storytelling • Top lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow • The importance of setting ambitious OKRs • JZ’s first 90 days playbook: how to succeed in a new role • Advice for early-career PMs — Brought to you by Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-minimum-lovable-products Where to find Jiaona Zhang: • Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/managing-your-pm-career • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/ • Website: https://www.jiaonazhang.com/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) JZ’s background (04:22) Common mistakes new PMs make (06:44) Why Airbnb Plus didn’t work out, and takeaways from that experience (10:51) Executing big dreams step-by-step (13:45) The right way to push back against founders (16:54) Minimum lovable product vs. minimum viable product (20:53) What makes a product lovable (22:20) Advice on roadmapping and prioritization (28:04) Tips for new PMs to accelerate their career (29:16) JZ’s top skills and how they have evolved over her career (31:37) Designing crisp OKRs (36:09) Lessons from WeWork (43:01) Winning the first 90 days at a new company (48:34) Why trust is crucial (51:48) High-level lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow (56:38) The one piece of advice that transformed JZ’s career (58:39) Lightning round Referenced: • Mike Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikelewis/ • “What working at Figma taught me about customer obsession,” VP of Product Sho Kuwamoto: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-working-at-figma-taught-me-about • WeWork: https://www.wework.com/ • WeCrashed on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/wecrashed/umc.cmc.6qw605uv2rwbzutk2p2fsgvq9 • Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days: https://www.amazon.com/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X • The Making of a Manager: What to Do When Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0735219567 • Tress of the Emerald Sea: A Cosmere Novel: https://www.amazon.com/Tress-Emerald-Sea-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/1250899656/ • Arcane on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81435684 • Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/ • Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/ Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
Mastering Complex Launches
Jiaona Zhang emphasizes the importance of becoming known for managing complex product launches. She discusses how excelling in this area can lead to greater responsibilities and opportunities within product management. By focusing on a specific strength, PMs can build a reputation that attracts more significant projects and roles.
"I think it's really important to become really good at and also known for something you could be known for shepherding like the most complex launches because you're just so good at quarterbacking work..."
Jiaona Zhang's Journey
In this introduction, Lenny welcomes Jiaona Zhang, a seasoned product leader with experience at Webflow, Airbnb, WeWork, and Dropbox. They discuss her extensive background in product management and the common mistakes new PMs make, setting the stage for deeper insights into product leadership.
"interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-winning experiences building and growing today's most successful products today my guest is Jay-Z Jay-Z is senior vice..."
Common Mistakes New PMs Make
Jiaona shares insights on the most frequent mistakes made by new product managers, particularly the tendency to jump to solutions without fully understanding user problems. She stresses the importance of focusing on user needs rather than preconceived solutions, which is crucial for effective product management.
"today's episode is brought to you by Brave search and their newest product the brave search API an independent Global search index you can use to power your search or AI apps if your work involves AI ..."
The Airbnb Plus Experience
Jiaona reflects on her experience with Airbnb Plus, discussing the challenges faced in ensuring quality and trust in the platform. She highlights the mistake of being solution-focused instead of understanding the core user problem, emphasizing the need for a strategic approach to product development.
"is you jump to Solutions and so one of the biggest things I see not just in my course but also just as a PM and like some of the mistakes that you make as a PM is the idea of you get really attached t..."
Understanding User Trust
In this segment, Jiaona elaborates on the challenges of building trust in the Airbnb platform. She discusses the importance of representing homes accurately and the pitfalls of relying on inspections rather than leveraging user reviews to ensure quality, highlighting the need for a user-centric approach.
"both there and and this one does stand out to me so you know we're working on this concept called Airbnb Plus you know if you took a step back we're really trying to do is to be like hey not everyone ..."
Balancing Vision and Execution
Jiaona discusses the importance of having a big vision while maintaining thoughtful execution. She advises product leaders to clearly define phases of development, allowing teams to learn and adapt without overcommitting resources to unproven ideas. This balance is crucial for successful product innovation.
"think there wasn't really a clear path I think there's less exactly and it's more just like if you understood again this is what my point around you in economics there are things where I think you hav..."
Setting Milestones for Success
Jiaona emphasizes the need for clear milestones and success metrics in product development. By breaking down goals into manageable timeframes, product teams can avoid the pitfalls of the sunk cost fallacy and make informed decisions about the direction of their projects.
"how to be clear about the phase that you're in so I think it's totally fine to be like hey we are going to try X for six months three months you know whatever it is and we're explicitly going to go le..."
The Art of Pushing Back
Jiaona shares insights on how product leaders can effectively push back against founders or leadership when they believe an idea is flawed. She highlights the importance of understanding the underlying goals and presenting better alternatives to align with the company's vision.
"like some cost fallacy that kicks in of just like oh I spend so much time and money and resources on this thing let's just go a little bit longer let's just see if we give it another quarter maybe it'..."
Conviction in Decision Making
In this segment, Jiaona discusses the necessity of having conviction when challenging ideas proposed by leadership. She explains how to articulate concerns effectively and provide data-driven alternatives that align with user needs and business goals.
"versus like let's go for it I think first it comes down to your conviction like do you actually have conviction this is a bad idea or are you still are you personally still learning right I think if y..."
Minimum Lovable Product Explained
Jiaona introduces the concept of a Minimum Lovable Product (MLP) as a step beyond the Minimum Viable Product (MVP). She explains how understanding user expectations and creating a product that resonates emotionally can lead to greater success in a competitive market.
"biggest thing the biggest tip I would have for for people in this situation is really understand whether it's the founder or your manager or whoever it is like what is it that you're actually trying t..."
Examples of Minimum Lovable Products
Jiaona provides examples of Minimum Lovable Products, discussing how Webflow approached new features with a focus on user experience. She emphasizes the importance of knowing when to release a product and how to balance user expectations with development capabilities.
"so I think that's that's the real point but at the end of the day it does come back to what are the options that a user has and what are they trying to do so there's a world where you know know your Q..."
Creating Lovable Experiences
In this segment, Jiaona discusses the elements that contribute to making a product lovable. She shares insights on how small, thoughtful features and enhancements can significantly impact user satisfaction and loyalty.
"something out there that's an example of like here's maybe an example of a minimal level product versus MVP again it's very hard I think every product Team every product person struggles with this ide..."
Pixie Dust in Product Design
Jiaona talks about the concept of 'pixie dust' in product design, referring to those delightful, unexpected features that enhance user experience. She illustrates how adding these elements can elevate a product from merely functional to truly lovable.
"would actually respect this idea of like you've given me minimal lovable in five areas as opposed to minimal viable in 15 areas is there anything you've seen of just like that makes something lovable ..."
Storytelling in Roadmapping
Jiaona emphasizes the importance of storytelling in product roadmapping. She advises teams to focus on themes and narratives rather than just data points, ensuring that everyone understands the 'why' behind their work.
"shifting to a different topic I know you have strong opinions about Road mapping and okrs and fertilization and I know that's a big topic but let me just ask what's the most common advice you give aro..."
Effective Roadmap Artifacts
In this segment, Jiaona discusses how to effectively present product roadmaps in a remote work environment. She suggests using written documents to articulate the rationale behind decisions, ensuring clarity and alignment among team members.
"important can I ask a follow-up question on that really yeah it's easy to visualize the roadmap of a spreadsheet to help people visualize what you're suggesting there what does that actual artifact lo..."
Advice for New Product Managers
Jiaona shares her top advice for new product managers aiming to accelerate their careers. She stresses the importance of becoming known for a specific strength within the company, whether it's managing complex launches or tackling technical challenges. By building a reputation for excellence, PMs can gain more responsibilities and opportunities for growth.
"you know so often docs get out of or like spreadsheets get out of date right because they're they're like a snapshot of whatever it is that you needed at the point in time but you if you said you link..."
The Importance of Execution and Hard Work
In this segment, Jiaona reflects on her career journey and the significance of hard work in product management. She highlights how being known for execution and reliability can lead to increased responsibilities and trust from leadership. This foundational principle is crucial for PMs looking to make a lasting impact in their roles.
"superhuman how much time do you spend in email each day how about your team you may not realize this but your email tools are wasting your time superhuman is blazingly fast email for high performing t..."
Setting Ambitious OKRs
Jiaona discusses the critical role of setting ambitious Objectives and Key Results (OKRs) in product management. She encourages PMs to focus on the qualitative aspects of success rather than just quantitative metrics. This mindset fosters innovation and allows teams to learn from failures, ultimately driving better outcomes for users and the business.
"thing I'll give you a couple examples you could be known for shepherding like the most complex launches because you're just so good at quarterbacking working with you know go to market teens and cross..."
Navigating Performance Reviews with Ambitious Goals
In this segment, Jiaona addresses the challenges PMs face during performance reviews when they set ambitious OKRs. She advocates for a culture that rewards risk-taking and learning from failures, rather than punishing missed targets. This approach encourages PMs to dream big while also having a clear plan to achieve their goals.
"decisions I also learned as I was doing that I was actually really good at execution and so you know being able to keep a lot of plates kind of spinning and and working on kind of like the largest stu..."
Learning from WeWork's Challenges
Jiaona reflects on her experience at WeWork during a tumultuous period. She shares valuable lessons about empathy and organizational building, emphasizing the importance of understanding team dynamics and fostering a supportive environment. These insights have shaped her approach to product management and leadership.
"know as I've run my career whether it's at Airbnb or we work at other places I flex into maybe like a different it's like taking your core strength but then flexing it and finding different ways to br..."
Setting Ambitious Milestones
Jiaona Zhang emphasizes the importance of setting ambitious goals as a product manager. She discusses how to break down these goals into manageable milestones, ensuring that the team understands the path to achieving them. This segment highlights the balance between ambition and practicality in product management.
"to say is like this is my North North Star I'm not going to be able to do that in a quarter that just is unreasonable but here are the five Milestones you know whatever number some number of Milestone..."
Lessons from WeWork's Chaos
Reflecting on her time at WeWork, Jiaona shares valuable lessons learned during a tumultuous period. She discusses the significance of empathy in leadership and the challenges of managing a growing team amidst organizational instability. This segment provides insights into the human side of product management during crises.
"awesome you mentioned wework and I want to spend a little time on wework you were at wework for about a year and I think it was like in the middle of a lot of the craziness that went on at wework uh i..."
Avoiding Over-Hiring Pitfalls
Jiaona Zhang discusses the critical lesson of avoiding over-hiring in product management. She reflects on her experiences at WeWork and the consequences of expanding teams too quickly. This segment underscores the importance of strategic hiring aligned with clear milestones and operational needs.
"that I got a crash course on I think before uh you know early and the the second lesson really was around not over hiring and so I think that was huge and I think I personally learned that lesson thro..."
Understanding Product Desires
In this segment, Jiaona emphasizes the need to understand customer desires when developing products. She explains how operational strengths can drive product success without necessarily relying on advanced technology. This insight is crucial for product managers aiming to align their vision with market needs.
"technology there's technology that would accelerate that but do we need it to be super platform aware do we need to be like super futuristic like that's actually not what people care about so this all..."
Memories from WeWork
Jiaona shares her favorite and hardest memories from her time at WeWork. She reflects on the ambitious spirit of the team and the personal challenges she faced during layoffs while pregnant. This segment highlights the emotional aspects of leadership and the importance of empathy in difficult situations.
"if you think back to wework what was your favorite memory and what was your hardest least happy memory if anything comes to mind I mean I think this idea like dreaming really big like I think everyone..."
Navigating Personal and Professional Choices
Jiaona discusses the difficult decision she faced between staying at WeWork during layoffs or taking a new role. She reflects on her responsibilities towards her team and the impact of her choices on their futures. This segment illustrates the complex interplay between personal and professional decisions in leadership.
"in my first trimester when we were going through all of these layoffs and I basically uh was faced with a choice it was like hey do I stay at wework I would be guaranteed maternity leave I was going t..."
The First 90 Days Strategy
Jiaona outlines her approach to the first 90 days in a new role, emphasizing the need to build context quickly. She shares strategies for effective onboarding, including meeting key stakeholders and creating actionable plans. This segment is essential for new product managers looking to make an immediate impact.
"me just really stood out and then goes back to this concept around like leadership is so much about like empathy and like people it's it's as much that as is it about as it's about like understanding ..."
Building Context Efficiently
In this segment, Jiaona elaborates on the importance of building context in a new role, especially under time constraints. She discusses her strategy for meeting various team members and gathering insights to inform her decisions. This practical advice is invaluable for product managers entering new environments.
"that's a great segue to the question I was gonna ask is around your 90-day plan that I know you have you put a lot of thought into how to think about the first 90 days but before we get there the movi..."
Creating a Strategic Plan
Jiaona emphasizes the necessity of having a strategic plan before taking maternity leave. She discusses how to identify key priorities and delegate responsibilities to ensure continuity. This segment highlights the importance of proactive leadership in maintaining momentum during transitions.
"I create like a like a even just like a calendar of like speaking to people yes my leadership team but also like across a bunch of functions and then across a bunch of levels so it's really important ..."
Strategic Planning in the First 90 Days
Jiaona Zhang shares her approach to strategic planning during her first 90 days in a new role. She emphasizes the importance of gathering context, identifying key stakeholders, and creating a clear plan that includes research assignments. JZ highlights the need for transparency with the leadership team about staffing challenges and the significance of building trust while pushing for necessary changes.
"okay this information this data is is making us choose to go down the path or this is a no go or no-go decision we can make that decision now where we couldn't make that decision number four so that w..."
The Trust Factor in Product Management
In this segment, JZ discusses the critical role of trust in product management. She reflects on her early mistakes in a new role, where she pushed for changes too quickly without establishing trust first. JZ likens trust to a bank, where you must deposit social capital before making withdrawals to advocate for change, emphasizing the balance between gaining trust and driving progress.
"and then the second bucket was identify things that need to be shifted changed flagged I imagine there's also an element of trust and building trust was that in part of this of how you thought about i..."
Lessons from Legendary Companies
Jiaona Zhang shares key lessons learned from her experiences at Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow. She stresses the importance of understanding what makes a product special and investing in those core strengths rather than chasing competitors. JZ illustrates this with examples from each company, highlighting how focusing on user love and core advantages can lead to better product outcomes.
"what were signs maybe looking back that you didn't necessarily have the trust that you thought you did or you should have had I think something like you know a product like waffle is a very complex pr..."
Investing in Core Strengths
In this segment, JZ elaborates on the importance of doubling down on what makes a product unique. She discusses how Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow each have distinct strengths that should be prioritized in product development. JZ emphasizes that understanding user love and maintaining focus on core offerings can prevent dilution of the brand and enhance user experience.
"forgetting to invest deeply in that core concept and then building everything around that and and so I'll walk you through the different companies so specifically for for Dropbox I think we did waste ..."
The Power of Asking for Help
Jiaona Zhang reflects on the transformative advice of asking for help as a product leader. She discusses the importance of being honest about what you know and don't know, and how seeking assistance can lead to better decision-making and product outcomes. JZ shares her recent experiences in developing product strategy and the value of collaboration in navigating complex challenges.
"Airbnb special how do you double down on your strength it's like spending the time to make that that experience of like really understanding what's in a home so people don't go and get surprised like ..."
Leveraging AI for Product Strategy
Jiaona Zhang discusses her approach to developing a three-year product strategy at Webflow, focusing on leveraging AI to enhance user experience and support content creators. She emphasizes the importance of seeking help from experts and continuously iterating on strategy to adapt to the rapidly changing landscape of AI technology.
"biggest thing that I I hold as like a core principal and and just helps me build better products what's something that you've asked for help about recently as an example so I'm working on our product ..."
The Lightning Round Begins
In an engaging lightning round, Jiaona shares her favorite book recommendations, including 'Design Sprint' by Google and insights from Julie's management book. She also reveals her love for fantasy author Brandon Sanderson and discusses the impact of parenting on her media consumption, highlighting her current favorite shows and movies.
"comes to mind I feel like every night I'm watching Sesame Street like like video uh like songs we don't we don't do TV but we do do YouTube songs so I honestly don't have an answer to that other than ..."
Interviewing for Ambiguity
Jiaona explains her preferred interview technique, focusing on behavioral questions that reveal how candidates navigate ambiguity. She shares what she looks for in responses, emphasizing the importance of structure and the ability to seek help in uncertain situations, which is crucial for product managers.
"what is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love I love I mean it's not recent but I do love this new and it's very top of mind because I just graduated my second son from the snoo ..."
Innovative Product Building Techniques
Jiaona reflects on minor changes in her product-building approach that have led to significant improvements in team efficiency. She discusses the importance of conducting tech spikes to assess project complexity and the value of involving cross-functional partners early in the process to enhance collaboration.
"ability to execute there's so many different things that we've done at all the different companies it's it really depends on the company and and what I mean by that is like at a company like webflow w..."
Pro Tips for Webflow Success
Jiaona shares her top pro tip for using Webflow effectively, highlighting the platform's high learning curve and the upcoming integration of AI and educational resources. She expresses excitement about making the learning process more intuitive and context-driven for users, aiming to enhance their experience with the product.
"out in the future okay no specific dates yet yeah you could share the sounds like breaking news of cool stuff coming some things are in uh you know Alpha and probably beta but we do want to be develop..."