All Segments
Andrew Kortina of Venmo and Fin on Technological Determinism and Work's Relationship to Dignity
39 segments available
Andrew Kortina - https://twitter.com/kortina - is the cofounder of Venmo and Fin. Fin is a high quality, on-demand, personal assistant and executive assistant service. You can get a $100 credit to try Fin at https://fin.com/yc Andrew blogs at https://kortina.nyc/ The YC podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon - https://twitter.com/craigcannon *** Topics 00:00 - Human dignity and work 7:35 - Creating jobs 9:35 - From The Beautiful Struggle // The Beautiful Game - You might argue that we’re already in a sort of failure mode, where our ability to assign dignity to arbitrary work and motivate people to work bullshit jobs is more efficient than our ability to allocate labor towards industry that would have greater social benefit, like education, healthcare, food, etc. If we’re already in this failure mode, it’s kind of the worst of all worlds, because not only are we assigning meaning to work that doesn’t need to be done, but, also, we could be redeploying that labor towards efforts that are actually important today. https://kortina.nyc/essays/the-beautiful-struggle-the-beautiful-game/ 18:00 - Travel 20:30 - Why do we want to do anything? 21:35 - Life after Fin 24:45 - From The Emperor Has No Clothes, There is No Santa Claus, and Nothing is Rocket Science - I want to preface this talk by warning you that it’s quite possible you’ll interpret much of this talk as cynicism. It is not my intention to be cynical. My goal is to treat you with respect by speaking to you honestly, without any grand illusions. None of the companies trying to convince you to work for them will mention technological determinism. They will confirm what your parents and teachers told you, that your work and contribution will be totally unique and significant. https://kortina.nyc/essays/the-emperor-has-no-clothes-there-is-no-santa-claus-and-nothing-is-rocket-science/ 31:30 - From The Emperor Has No Clothes, There is No Santa Claus, and Nothing is Rocket Science - I recognize that the meditative aspect of craft is an excellent way to cope with meaninglessness 38:00 - Technological determinism 42:30 - Andrew's company Fin 47:45 - Ryan Hoover asks - When (if ever) will Fin task completion be 100% AI-driven? 49:00 - Differences between running Fin and Venmo 56:15 - Venmo's Lucas ads 58:00 - Spencer Clark asks - How did you and your co-founders decide to sell Venmo? 1:01:30 - Charlie Kaufman on Screenwriting - What I’m trying to express – what I’d like to express – is the notion that, by being honest, thoughtful and aware of the existence of other living beings, a change can begin to happen in how we think of ourselves and the world, and ourselves in the world. https://kortina.nyc/essays/charlie-kaufman-bafta-speech/ 1:08:30 - Get $100 credit to Fin at https://fin.com/yc
Segments Timeline
The Dignity of Work
Andrew Kortina discusses the historical connection between work and human dignity, questioning whether this association remains relevant in today's world. He reflects on how personal experiences and cultural influences shape our understanding of dignity and the role of work in our lives.
"all right Andrew Cortina welcome to the podcast thanks for having me how's it going man pretty good cool so you are the founder or co-founder of both venmo and fin but you're also blogger yeah and I w..."
Cultural Influences on Dignity
Kortina explores how cultural factors, such as the Protestant work ethic, influence our perceptions of dignity and work. He shares insights on how difficult it is to change ingrained beliefs about the value of work, even when recognizing their origins in societal norms.
"another company I assume like you could have taken some time off it not worked why do you go back to work yeah I think it's I think it's very difficult to change your own idea of dignity and I don't n..."
The Role of Work in Uncertain Times
In this segment, Andrew Kortina reflects on the necessity of work in uncertain environments, suggesting that work serves as a means to create stability and resilience against potential crises. He discusses how this perspective shapes the American view of entrepreneurship and service.
"that a lot of things that I have are not measure things like I have accomplished myself but things I've received from like teachers or like reading great books from the past 2,000 years of Western civ..."
The Challenge of Changing Perspectives
Kortina addresses the difficulty of altering one's perspective on work and dignity, especially as one ages. He contrasts the allure of a carefree lifestyle with the societal pressures to find meaning through productivity, emphasizing the deep-rooted nature of these beliefs.
"been a useful thing to do if you live in a very uncertain world where there's things like you know a horde of locusts can take out the crops for the year and then there's famine right like you want to..."
Flow States Beyond Work
Andrew discusses moments of flow outside of traditional work, contemplating whether engaging in hands-on projects can provide a sense of fulfillment. He questions the balance between internal reflection and the need for societal contributions through meaningful work.
"well you did describe I forget I think it was in that maybe it wasn't an essay before these kind of like flow state moments you've had outside of work you know you were talking about moving this like ..."
The American Perspective on Dignified Work
In this segment, Kortina reflects on the American cultural emphasis on dignified work as a motivator for helping others. He considers how this perspective may shift as society moves towards greater abundance and questions the necessity of productivity for a dignified life.
"think that's one of the cool things about American culture is like I do see that and like that's kind of what I like about the idea of like dignified work is that you know it is a motive to inspire th..."
Creating Jobs in the Attention Economy
Andrew Kortina discusses the phenomenon of job creation in the attention economy, using examples like Twitch streamers. He reflects on the sustainability of such jobs and the potential disconnect between creative pursuits and societal value.
"weird situation I might know something I think about a lot so then do you do you not buy the argument that humans are very very good at creating jobs when we when we were talking last week I was talki..."
The Failure Mode of Work
Kortina introduces the concept of a 'failure mode' in which society assigns dignity to arbitrary work while neglecting more meaningful labor in sectors like education and healthcare. He questions whether we are currently in this failure mode and its implications for the future.
"that was how you ended the other essay when you said like what would be the last human job gratitude and yet it still resonates with you yeah I'd like I still like that one it's always good when you l..."
Consumerism and Time Waste
Andrew shares a personal anecdote about his experience in a supermarket, illustrating the wastefulness of consumer culture. He critiques the time and effort invested in producing unnecessary goods, prompting a reflection on what truly matters in life.
"today do you think we're there yeah I mean I think about this a lot when I go to a supermarket and I guess I know when you I got into the habit of like going just like you know uh like a bodega in New..."
The Singularity of Money
In this thought-provoking segment, Kortina discusses the idea that money has already become a controlling force in society, shaping human behavior and decision-making. He reflects on the implications of this perspective for the future of work and human interaction.
"waste and it's just like if you if you think about the things that you actually need to survive and the things that you let you value kind of at the end of the day or like when you're reflecting on th..."
Humanizing Money
Andrew Kortina discusses the philosophy behind Venmo's approach to money, emphasizing the importance of human connection over mere transactions. He explains how the platform aims to make financial interactions more meaningful by focusing on the moments shared between people rather than just the dollars exchanged.
"was coming through our phones and because we're getting used to intermediating between these like pretty bad devices it's going to be so easy for us to just have the full integration happen as soon as..."
The Burden of Commercial Tourism
In this segment, Kortina reflects on the overwhelming nature of commercial tourism and the artificial experiences it creates. He shares his experiences in Cambodia, highlighting the similarities between tourist traps around the world and expressing a desire for more authentic interactions rather than commodified experiences.
"if this world like the commercial world is overwhelming to you or just wonder whatever too much do you practice some kind of Stoicism you have nothing in your apartment what does it look like no I mea..."
The Joy of Bike Touring
Andrew Kortina shares his newfound passion for bike touring, describing it as an accessible and enriching way to travel. He explains how this form of travel allows for genuine connections with locals and a deeper understanding of the places he visits, contrasting it with traditional tourism.
"I mean it's also just depressingly commercial or just like travel I don't know like I was in I went to Cambodia I think a couple years ago you think you're in Cambodia I think was someplace late but t..."
The Search for Meaning in Work
Kortina contemplates the intrinsic motivation behind work and the human desire to contribute meaningfully. He discusses the challenges of balancing personal fulfillment with societal expectations, questioning the nature of work and its role in defining one's identity.
"something you know like Wyatt like is that natural or is that just because you know of all the things that you've read right like why do we want to do something yeah I don't know it's a I I was able t..."
Post-Fin Life Reflections
In this segment, Kortina reflects on his future after Fin, considering the complexities of work and creativity. He discusses the challenges of maintaining a creative flow while managing responsibilities and the desire for a fulfilling life beyond corporate structures.
"is like kind of it I know a big thing yeah but it's so hard to get into like a creative mode or you can like you know like I forget takes like hours to get to the point where you can like hmm be like ..."
Technological Determinism and Work
Andrew Kortina addresses the concept of technological determinism and its implications for the workforce. He critiques the narrative that tech companies promote about work being uniquely significant, contrasting it with the reality of job markets and the societal pressures faced by young professionals.
"about technological determinism the emperor has no clothes there is no Santa Claus and nothing is rocket science this was a lecture at Cal yeah right and I found it really interesting because it kind ..."
The Illusion of Financial Independence
Kortina discusses the modern obsession with financial independence among young people, expressing concern over the unrealistic expectations set by society. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the implications of pursuing wealth and the potential for missing out on meaningful experiences.
"because you're like by default this game is like a multi-year game that will encompass like your 20s you might not ever do anything yeah and that makes me sad but yeah yeah you know there's a lot of t..."
Critiquing Craftsmanship
Kortina addresses the tendency to critique others' craftsmanship without recognizing their efforts. He discusses the unhealthy nature of such comparisons and the importance of acknowledging the value of work done by others. This segment delves into the dichotomy of craftsmanship and the societal pressures surrounding it.
"craft has that sort of you know like cooking is like that or you know writing software is like that working with your hands I think is like that they're doing excel I think like there's a lot of thing..."
The Allure of Virtual Reality
Andrew Kortina speculates on the potential of virtual reality (VR) as an alternative to real life, discussing its appeal and the possibility of creating fulfilling experiences within it. He contrasts the excitement of VR with the limitations of reality, raising questions about the nature of existence and fulfillment in a technologically advanced world.
"then on the other hand some people clear like all these things are dichotomies right yeah yeah is just tough there's a lot of garbage out there but there's a lot of people trying their best I don't kn..."
The Boredom of Omnipotence
In this thought-provoking segment, Kortina references Alan Watts' ideas on omnipotence and the boredom that may accompany it. He discusses how the knowledge of being omnipotent could lead to a lack of stakes in life, prompting a return to the struggles of finite existence. This philosophical exploration challenges listeners to consider the value of limitations.
"I could like be a professional basketball player in PR never gonna happen you can be good yeah I mean it so if you could somehow slip into that like really feel like you're LeBron James yeah I've neve..."
Technological Determinism Explained
Andrew Kortina defines technological determinism, explaining how society evolves as a product of technology. He discusses the inevitability of technological advancements and the implications for individual agency in innovation. This segment provides insight into the relationship between technology and societal progress.
"little bit and so you like then you start taking away the fact that you know it's a game I think he like returned to this state of the struggle of limited finite life it was just like he kind of like ..."
JFK's Moral Argument for Space Exploration
Kortina references JFK's famous speech on the necessity of space exploration, drawing parallels to the moral imperatives of technological advancement. He discusses the competitive nature of technological development and the responsibility of ethical innovators to lead progress. This segment highlights the intersection of morality and technology.
"bit I was talking more about corollary like technological determinism I think is just the society is a product of technology or something but the kind of thing I think about a lot as a corollary of th..."
The Vision Behind Fin
In this segment, Andrew Kortina introduces Fin, his personal assistant service, explaining its innovative approach to combining human assistance with technology. He discusses the limitations of current AI capabilities and how Fin aims to provide a more effective solution for personal assistance. This segment showcases the vision and practicality behind the service.
"and you use a JFK's moral argument yeah that that JFK's speech from it was a he gave this talk at Rice talking about the space program and he was talking about why quiet like why are we going to space..."
The Value of Time: Choosing Family Over Chores
In this segment, Kortina emphasizes the importance of time management and the value of spending time with family over mundane tasks. He highlights how many people waste hours on chores that could be delegated, advocating for the use of personal assistants to reclaim that time for more meaningful activities.
"just take all these sort of mundane digital chores that you don't want to do yourself but that you're probably doing right now because there's like okay tools to do them and because there's like okay ..."
Challenges of Hiring Personal Assistants
Andrew Kortina outlines the difficulties in hiring personal assistants, particularly the challenges of finding reliable help for short-term needs. He discusses the traditional model of hiring assistants in large blocks of hours and how Fin aims to disrupt this model by offering flexible, on-demand assistance.
"spend time with their kids the sort of historical problem is you can't really get an assistant for three hours per week it's it's pretty tricky to figure out how yeah I mean there are people that tell..."
The Future of Work: AI and Human Collaboration
Kortina explores the potential future where AI could handle all tasks, questioning the implications for human work. He shares his vision for Fin as a platform that enhances human productivity through technology, while acknowledging the ongoing need for human involvement in various tasks.
"from that and like the entity like remembers your preferences around dentist appointments or whatever right you don't want to have to tell you know if you if you're hiring a new assistant every year b..."
Navigating the Complexity of Fin
In this segment, Andrew Kortina discusses the complexities of running Fin compared to Venmo. He shares insights into the challenges of managing a diverse team and the intricacies of providing a service that competes with traditional human assistants.
"and then we're all go to the beach and drink pina coladas and we're at the beginning beginning of the podcast yeah yeah that'll be great so our sort of bet is while there is any human work to be done ..."
Raising Funds: Lessons from Fin and Venmo
Kortina reflects on the fundraising challenges faced while building Venmo and Fin. He contrasts the experiences, highlighting the different business models and the social capital that aided in raising funds for Fin, compared to the difficulties encountered with Venmo.
"dyma I mean booth then though it was always really difficult to raise money because it was a very expensive business to run and it had to be like a huge like event Mo's just now starting to like start..."
The Complexity of Providing Personal Assistance
Andrew discusses the unique challenges Fin faces in providing personal assistance, emphasizing the need to be versatile and capable of handling a wide range of tasks. He explains how this complexity sets Fin apart from traditional service models and the importance of effective measurement in their operations.
"managing people so we lots of challenges like that with Finn on the other hand I like have a little bit more experience managing people so that part like is somewhat easier or you know at least I have..."
Measuring Success in a Diverse Service Model
In this segment, Kortina delves into the difficulties of measuring performance and success within Fin's diverse service model. He explains the challenges of categorizing tasks, understanding customer demand, and ensuring quality service delivery amidst a heterogeneous workforce.
"good at that with Finn we're competing with a full-time human assistant and a full-time human assistant we'll just do whatever you ask them it's like you hire a human assistant and he's like hey can y..."
Understanding Customer Needs at Fin
Andrew Kortina emphasizes the importance of understanding individual customer needs in the context of Fin's services. He discusses how personal assistance differs from media businesses, highlighting the necessity of tailoring services to meet specific demands rather than creating additional work.
"tools for our team that's doing all work and then probably one of the most challenging things is measurement and we spend a huge amount of time on measurement trying to understand things like okay who..."
The Challenge of Marketing Personal Assistance
Kortina shares insights on the marketing challenges faced by Fin, particularly in conveying the breadth of services offered. He discusses the importance of customer communication and understanding their needs to effectively promote the service.
"basically and if we're under supply then people have to wait too long for work to get done for oversupply then we're just like burning money yep and then the other thing that's really hard to it the m..."
Innovative Marketing Strategies for Fin
In this segment, Andrew Kortina reflects on creative marketing strategies for Fin, drawing parallels with past experiences at Venmo. He discusses the potential for unconventional marketing tactics that resonate with users and create memorable brand experiences.
"actually good or bad so it's just really complicated it feels like I'm like trying Leena to do measurement in like macroeconomics or they're just like a billion different dimensions and you're like co..."
The Decision to Sell Venmo
Andrew Kortina recounts the decision-making process behind selling Venmo, explaining the circumstances that led to the sale. He highlights the strategic fit with Braintree and the vision for expanding Venmo's user base in the mobile payments landscape.
"yeah but we can't like know a priori what your needs are and then like put those on the page for you right so there's a certain sense we're like talking to you for a little bit helps us like realize y..."
Braintree and Venmo: A Perfect Match
In this segment, Kortina elaborates on why Braintree was an ideal partner for Venmo. He discusses the alignment of visions and the importance of having a leader who understood the potential of mobile payments and was willing to invest in Venmo's growth.
"gosh you're not so do you do you ever have a moment when you talked about your Lucas venmo hats do you ever have a moment where you're like I want to do this again undo the same thing I want to do it ..."
The Decision to Sell Venmo
Kortina explains the rationale behind selling Venmo to Braintree, highlighting the strategic fit and mutual benefits. He discusses the challenges faced and the vision shared with Braintree's CEO, Bill Ready, which made the acquisition a logical step for both companies.
"do for fun mm-hmm so Spencer Clark asked how did you and your co-founder decide to sell venmo or why well the one it was the options were shut down venmo forever or sell it so that was like a pretty e..."
Understanding the Value of Venmo
In this segment, Andrew Kortina elaborates on how Venmo's integration with Braintree and later PayPal was crucial for enhancing payment processing margins. He reflects on the long-term vision required to build a successful payment platform and the challenges of convincing merchants to adopt new technologies.
"for ven mode to be part of Braintree because it was like this sort of like matching halves and then the same thing when PayPal acquired Braintree I think PayPal was one of the few people that could li..."
Charlie Kaufman's Insightful Speech
Kortina shares his thoughts on Charlie Kaufman's BAFTA speech, emphasizing its themes of authenticity and the mechanization of human relationships. He reflects on how Kaufman's insights resonate with the creative process and the importance of genuine communication in both film and everyday interactions.
"that was great did you transcribe that on your own just like no I I think I found either the YouTube transcription and cleaned up or it might have been on BAFTAs website somewhere okay but I kind of p..."
Intentional Living and Creativity
Andrew Kortina discusses the importance of intentionality in work and life, inspired by Kaufman's reflections. He warns against falling into automatic routines and emphasizes the need for self-awareness and creativity in pursuing meaningful endeavors, while also acknowledging the challenges of maintaining this mindset.
"things and I think he kind of in that it gives context for a lot of stuff he's seen his films where he's reacting to this um mechanization of human relations the kind of alienated us from each other a..."