All Segments
Ben Westhoff — Fentanyl, Inc. | Episode 189
39 segments available
Ben Westhoff is a best-selling investigative journalist focusing on culture, drugs, and poverty. Ben’s book Fentanyl, Inc.: How Rogue Chemists Created the Deadliest Wave of the Opioid Epidemic was the culmination of a four-year investigation into the worst drug crisis in American history, an investigation that included Ben making an undercover visit to Chinese drug factories. His latest book, Little Brother: Love, Tragedy, and My Search for Truth tells the story of Ben’s search for his little brother’s killer. Ben is currently working on a documentary, Antagonist, about naltrexone, an opioid treatment medicine that some have called a “wonder drug.” Ben joins the show to discuss the failure of the War on Drugs, the role played by Big Pharma, how he speaks to his children about drugs, what most Americans misunderstand about poverty, and MUCH more. Important Links: - Ben’s Website- https://www.benwesthoff.com/ - Drugs + Hip-Hop Newsletter- https://benwesthoff.substack.com/about - Antagonist Documentary Teaser - https://www.benwesthoff.com/documentary Show Notes: 0:00:00 Intro 0:01:06 Main podcast 0:02:23 The Worst Drug Crisis in World History 0:07:53 How China and Fentanyl Are Connected 0:10:37 Why Can’t the USA Stop This? 0:13:36 The Failure of the War on Drugs; Better Solutions 0:19:36 Vivitrol: a Wonder Drug? 0:29:33 Finding Better Ways to Care For the Vulnerable 0:32:22 Free Markets & Big Pharma 0:37:10 How Ben Speaks to His Children About Drugs 0:39:40 Innovation & Stigmatization 0:46:57 How Harm Reduction Can Help 0:49:25 What Has Happened to San Francisco? 0:52:34 Could Decriminalization Work? 0:58:01 Ben’s Hunt For His Little Brother’s Killer 1:01:29 What Most Americans Misunderstand About Poverty; How Listeners Can Help 1:06:30 How Ben’s Documentary Can Help 1:09:56 Ben as Emperor Of The World 1:13:41 End screen Books Mentioned: - Fentanyl, Inc.: How Rogue Chemists Created the Deadliest Wave of the Opioid Epidemic; by Ben Westhoff - Little Brother: Love, Tragedy, and My Search for Truth; by Ben Westhoff - Original Gangstas: Tupac Shakur, Dr. Dre, Eazy-E, Ice Cube, and the Birth of West Coast Rap; by Ben Westhoff - Thank You For Smoking; by Christopher Buckley
Segments Timeline
The Global Fentanyl Crisis
Ben Westhoff discusses the staggering scale of the fentanyl crisis, emphasizing that it is not only the worst drug crisis in American history but potentially the worst in world history. He critiques the ineffectiveness of the current strategies employed by the DEA and highlights the unethical practices within the methadone industry, setting the stage for a deeper exploration of the crisis.
"we have this massive supply of the synthetic venyl it seems to be manufactured mostly in China this is not only the worst drug crisis in American history but it's quite probably the worst drug crisis ..."
Ben Westhoff's Investigative Journey
In this segment, Ben Westhoff introduces himself and his work, including his book 'Fentanyl, Inc.' and his documentary 'Antagonist.' He shares insights into the opioid epidemic and the importance of understanding the crisis beyond headlines, providing a compelling overview of the challenges faced in addressing this public health emergency.
"this well hello everyone it's jimo shauny with yet another infinite Loops today's guest I I said to him off air that literally I could read all of his accomplishments but that would occupy about 30 mi..."
Understanding the Opioid Crisis
Ben Westhoff provides a detailed overview of the opioid crisis, revealing shocking statistics about overdose deaths in the U.S. He explains the rise of synthetic opioids like fentanyl and the dangers they pose compared to traditional plant-based drugs, emphasizing the need for public awareness and education on this critical issue.
"lot of people are really not aware of just how bad this epidemic is so if you wouldn't mind for our listeners and viewers giving an overview of the OB opioid crisis because a lot of people just look a..."
The Shift from Plant-Based to Synthetic Drugs
Westhoff contrasts the historical use of plant-based drugs with the modern explosion of synthetic alternatives. He discusses how synthetic drugs, such as fentanyl, are often more potent and dangerous, leading to increased risks of overdose. This segment highlights the significant changes in drug manufacturing and consumption patterns over the years.
"little bit about the difference between plant-based medicines and synthetic because you make a big deal about that rightly um um that the differences are really staggering and they can contribute uh i..."
The Unforeseen Rise of Fentanyl
In this segment, Westhoff explains how fentanyl became a leading cause of overdose deaths, surpassing heroin and prescription painkillers. He discusses the supply-driven nature of the current drug epidemic, where traffickers cut fentanyl into other drugs, making it more accessible and deadly for users.
"thumb with all these new drugs is the old version you know may have been addictive may have had its issues but the new new versions like fenil are much much worse so you know the the obvious question ..."
China's Role in the Fentanyl Crisis
Westhoff shares his firsthand experience of going undercover in Chinese drug operations, revealing how fentanyl analogs were previously legal and how they contributed to the crisis. He discusses the ongoing issue of precursor chemicals being sold to Mexican cartels, which play a crucial role in the production of fentanyl in the U.S.
"counterintuitive because what's different about this drug epidemic is that it's not demand driven you know like usually uh drug becomes popular because people want it you know people want cocaine peop..."
Challenges in Drug Interdiction
This segment addresses the challenges faced by U.S. authorities in stopping the influx of fentanyl and other drugs. Westhoff highlights the difficulties of interdiction efforts and the alarming statistic that the average American is now more likely to die from an overdose than from a car accident.
"on righty well I actually went uh undercover into some Chinese drug operations you know a number of years back for my reporting for fenil Inc and at the time this is 2018 um these variations on fentel..."
The Medical Use of Fentanyl
Westhoff clarifies the legitimate medical uses of fentanyl in hospital settings, contrasting it with the dangers of street fentanyl. He explains how trained professionals administer the drug safely, while on the street, the lack of proper dosing leads to a high risk of overdose.
"sell them to Mexican cartels and the cartels finish the fenel and send it North across the border and this is really at the heart of this whole drug epidemic in the United States because China sells t..."
Rethinking the War on Drugs
In this segment, Westhoff critiques the failed War on Drugs and discusses the need for new strategies to combat the opioid epidemic. He emphasizes the importance of education and medication-assisted treatment as key components in addressing the crisis effectively.
"stop drugs from getting into prisons so how are we gonna stop them from getting into a whole country yeah I saw that quote I loved it too if we can't stop betol from getting into a solitary confinemen..."
Innovative Approaches to Education
Westhoff suggests innovative ways to educate the public about the dangers of fentanyl, including leveraging hip-hop artists to reach vulnerable populations. He argues for a shift away from traditional anti-drug campaigns towards more relatable and impactful messaging.
"interdiction attempts these attempts to stop the drugs from getting into this country as the new war on drugs because I don't think people realize that tens of billions of dollars every year are spent..."
Medication-Assisted Treatment Accessibility
In this segment, Westhoff discusses the necessity of medication-assisted treatment for long-term opioid users, particularly those in vulnerable populations like the homeless. He highlights the misconception that these treatments are unaffordable, revealing that many programs are actually funded and accessible. This segment underscores the importance of making effective treatment options available to those in need.
"free you know uh before we began recording uh I said that your body of work was so impressive that you've done a lot about hipop as well but I've invited you back for a separate podcast about that but..."
Leveraging Hip-Hop for Drug Education
Westhoff proposes an innovative approach to drug education by involving hip-hop artists to reach vulnerable populations. He critiques traditional drug education methods and suggests that hip-hop could be a powerful medium for conveying important messages about the dangers of drug use, particularly fentanyl. This segment explores the potential of cultural influence in public health education.
"population yeah I think that's a great idea and I have spoken to people who have done it you know there's um D are we allowed to swear on this program [ __ ] yes okay great yeah yeah I'm uh other the ..."
Vivitrol: The Wonder Drug for Opioid Addiction
Ben Westhoff introduces Vivitrol, a medication that blocks opioid receptors and prevents the effects of heroin and fentanyl. He describes it as a 'wonder drug' and discusses its potential as a preventative measure against opioid addiction. This segment highlights the importance of awareness and access to such treatments in combating the opioid crisis.
"rappers have died from that exact thing so let's talk a bit about your documentary because you know at G I don't know whether you know about sh Adventures but we do have a film uh Division and uh when..."
Challenges of Detox and Treatment Options
In this segment, Westhoff addresses the challenges faced by individuals undergoing detox and the limitations of current treatment options. He discusses the necessity of being completely detoxed before starting Vivitrol and the hurdles that come with this process. The conversation emphasizes the need for comprehensive support systems for those battling addiction.
"addiction and the other two are a lot better known uh you have methadone and the other one is buprenorphine otherwise known as Suboxone and so these are really important medications too I'm not trying..."
The Need for Holistic Approaches to Addiction
Westhoff argues for a holistic approach to addiction treatment, emphasizing that simply detoxing individuals without follow-up support is ineffective. He compares the experience to being pushed out of a burning airplane without a parachute, highlighting the importance of ongoing care and support for recovering addicts. This segment calls for systemic changes in how addiction is treated.
"that's like 7 to 10 days of of withdrawal you know so so just clearing that hurdle uh is a challenge for for some people but for those people who can um now treone is is basically like an insurance po..."
The Suppression of Naltrexone Knowledge
Westhoff discusses the historical suppression of knowledge regarding naltrexone, a medication that could benefit opioid users. He highlights how misinformation and lobbying efforts have overshadowed its potential benefits, leading to a lack of awareness among both users and healthcare providers. This segment sheds light on the political and economic factors influencing drug treatment options.
"that this should be an option you know and there are so many of these uh kind of rehab facilities where they they drive people out they detox people and then they just send them right back onto the st..."
Profit Motives in the Methadone Industry
In this segment, Westhoff critiques the methadone industry, pointing out its profit-driven motives and the regulatory capture that affects treatment options for opioid addiction. He discusses how the focus on profit can overshadow the needs of patients and calls for a reevaluation of how addiction treatment is approached in the healthcare system.
"drug that is what I've experienced uh definitely and it started at the very beginning of when now treone was approved by the FDA in 1984 so on right right then like the next day it was on the cover of..."
Regulatory Challenges in Addiction Treatment
Westhoff highlights the regulatory challenges surrounding methadone treatment, noting that it is the only medication requiring specialized clinics for access. He discusses the implications of this system on patient care and the need for more flexible prescribing practices. This segment emphasizes the barriers that prevent effective treatment for those struggling with addiction.
"drugs I mean methadon like I said just to reiterate at it works great for a lot of people it's very important but there's no denying that the methodone industry is um just a giant Cash Cow you know um..."
The Intersection of Homelessness and Addiction
Westhoff addresses the growing visibility of homelessness and its connection to the opioid crisis. He discusses the need for holistic solutions that address both housing and addiction treatment. This segment underscores the complexity of the issues at hand and the necessity for integrated approaches to tackle these intertwined problems.
"the puzzle pieces together but you know presumably those are legitimate uh uh businesses right why can't the uh regulatory bodies that govern the regulation of those methodone clinics for example why ..."
Meeting Vulnerable Populations Where They Are
Ben Westhoff discusses the need for compassionate care for vulnerable populations affected by the opioid epidemic. He highlights the work of Percy Menes at ARCA clinic in St. Louis, which aims to meet people struggling with addiction on their level. Westhoff emphasizes the importance of addressing the intertwined issues of homelessness and drug addiction, advocating for a holistic approach to these crises.
"tell you to do it or you're not going to get it now to me since we can swear on this podcast that seems really [ __ ] up is there is there like a is there a third way that the these Setters could be r..."
The Illusion of Free Markets in Pharma
Westhoff critiques the pharmaceutical industry's practices, arguing that the market is not truly free due to regulatory capture and unethical marketing strategies. He points out how companies like the makers of Vivitrol engage in questionable practices to promote their products, and he calls for accountability, suggesting that prison time for executives involved in the opioid crisis could be a necessary step towards justice.
"know it just seems like almost the perfect storm right because we have uh an organized Lobby that makes lots of money uh you know the the classic example of regulatory capture crony uh capitalism in m..."
The Opioid Crisis: A Socioeconomic Issue
In this segment, Westhoff explains how the opioid crisis affects all socioeconomic classes, but particularly marginalized communities. He reflects on the dangers young people face today with the prevalence of fentanyl-laced drugs and stresses the importance of honest conversations about drug use with children, moving away from scare tactics to factual discussions.
"part of the cost of doing business so all of these Pharma companies are doing it and and I mean I guess one of one way to help with it might be to give some actual prison time you know like the Purdue..."
Talking to Kids About Drugs: The Importance of Honesty
Westhoff shares his approach to discussing drugs with his children, emphasizing the need for honesty and factual information. He critiques the outdated scare tactics of programs like DARE and highlights the importance of addressing the realities of drug use, particularly the dangers of fentanyl, while also dispelling myths about marijuana being laced with fentanyl.
"across all socioeconomic distinctions all age categories um we probably hear the most about young people who are overdosing and dying just because the landscape is so different you know if I were a 20..."
The Business of Drug Dealing: Innovation and Branding
Westhoff explores the entrepreneurial aspects of drug dealing, citing examples of innovative marketing strategies used by drug dealers. He discusses the case of a methamphetamine derivative called 'ice cream' and reflects on how branding can influence drug use. This segment raises questions about the glamorization of drug culture in media and its impact on public perception.
"so so I think it's important to to be real when you talk to your kids you know I don't want my kids smoking weed especially you know when they're young um but I I it's important to tell them the truth..."
The Need for Stigmatization in Drug Use
Westhoff argues for a nuanced approach to stigmatization in drug use, suggesting that while it's important to reduce stigma around addiction, there should still be a recognition of the dangers associated with drug use. He discusses the glamorization of drug culture in media and the need for responsible messaging that accurately portrays the risks of drug use.
"drug drugs I'm almost feeling guilty for being a big fan of Breaking Bad right because you know the the color was the marketing genius there and of course the fact that it was nearly what 98% pure it ..."
Harm Reduction Strategies: Learning from Other Countries
In this segment, Westhoff discusses harm reduction strategies, referencing successful models from countries like Portugal and Spain that have decriminalized drugs. He highlights the importance of naloxone in preventing overdoses and the need for comprehensive approaches to drug policy that prioritize public health and safety.
"we'd call Legal fentanyl right given given in hospitals potentially not now but maybe by prescription for through it an MD uh is can we ensure that that that is clean and clear or or is that also yeah..."
The Glamourization of Drug Culture
Ben Westhoff discusses the troubling trend of glamorizing drug use in hip-hop culture, highlighting the tragic stories of artists like Lil Peep and Juice WRLD. He reflects on how their music and imagery often romanticize drug use, leading to a dangerous disconnect between the perceived fun of drug culture and its harsh realities.
"difficult problem on so many different levels um I you know maybe thinking back to the documentary idea about the hip-hop stars and rappers who died because of this uh you know maybe maybe that kind o..."
Harm Reduction Strategies
Westhoff explores harm reduction as a viable approach to the drug crisis, citing successful models from countries like Portugal and Spain. He discusses the importance of supervised injection facilities and the use of life-saving drugs like Narcan and naltrexone, emphasizing that while harm reduction is gaining traction, it is not a complete solution to the epidemic.
"that you mention as being potentially effective here um is the the general idea of harm reduction um and could you just walk you've already mentioned a few but could you walk us through a few more of ..."
The San Francisco Dilemma
The conversation shifts to the worsening drug crisis in San Francisco, where harm reduction measures have not alleviated the problem. Westhoff shares observations from his visit, highlighting the stark contrast between the city's tolerance policies and the visible suffering of its residents, raising questions about the effectiveness of current strategies.
"burden has actually fallen on the advocates for for harm reduction because San Francisco for example is one of the cities that is the most friendly towards har reduction in the whole country and uh yo..."
Decriminalization and Regulation
Westhoff and his host discuss the complexities of drug decriminalization and the potential for regulated supply systems. They consider historical precedents like alcohol prohibition and the challenges of creating a safe drug supply, while acknowledging the ongoing issues with black markets and the need for innovative solutions.
"you're you're having a situation where you know people are coming from out of town out of state you know I've talked to people in San Francisco they're drawn very often to the the the tolerance that t..."
The Case for Safe Supply Programs
In this segment, Westhoff advocates for safe supply programs for drug users, drawing parallels to marijuana regulation. He argues that providing safe, government-distributed drugs could help mitigate the dangers of tainted substances, while also emphasizing the need for a structured approach to addiction treatment.
"just a crazy idea well regulation is uh it's not a crazy idea at all and in fact in in some countries in Europe they have a safe supply of heroin so you have government distributed free heroin to addi..."
Understanding Poverty Through Personal Stories
Westhoff shares his personal connection to poverty through the story of his mentee, Jerell Cleveland, who faced significant challenges growing up in a disadvantaged environment. He reflects on the misconceptions surrounding poverty in America, emphasizing that systemic barriers often trap individuals in their circumstances despite the myth of the American Dream.
"drive out you know you've heard of gresham's law maybe you haven't gresham's law is an economic rule that bad money drives out good right and and and so maybe we could reverse gresham's law and flood ..."
Bridging the Gap Between Wealth and Poverty
Westhoff reflects on the divide between wealthy and poor communities, arguing that true understanding comes from direct engagement. He encourages listeners to immerse themselves in different environments to grasp the complexities of poverty and the necessary actions to help.
"know I think I got just as much out of it as he did you know like I got to see these places I would never see I got to learn about his life his the world he lived in um you know I was a hip-hop fan he..."
Cynicism vs. Purpose
Ben discusses how learning about his brother's life and struggles affected his worldview, leading to a mix of cynicism and renewed purpose. He emphasizes the importance of confronting difficult truths and taking action rather than succumbing to despair.
"advice and uh what has what you when you were doing the investigation which led to the book uh little brother uh did what you learned about him affect how you interact with other people uh yeah defini..."
A Call to Action Against the Opioid Crisis
Westhoff expresses his desire for his documentary to save lives by raising awareness about the opioid crisis. He stresses the need for accessible treatment options and compassionate policies to address addiction, urging viewers to recognize the crisis as a solvable issue.
"about it um I I kind of went against that attitude yeah that that that can often be one of the hardest things after um you know learning things for the first time that are are not so great uh the it s..."
Changing Perspectives on Drug Use
Ben shares his vision for changing public perception regarding drug use and harm reduction. He discusses the importance of presenting facts in an engaging manner to foster understanding and compassion for those affected by addiction.
"show that um I think that uh anything that we can do like this film for example uh where we present these facts uh in a way that is very much not the reformatus style that was tried uh are probably gr..."
The Role of Education in Addressing Drug Issues
Westhoff highlights the need for increased dialogue about drug issues, emphasizing that education can lead to greater awareness and understanding. He reflects on his own journey of learning and the importance of sharing knowledge with others.
"way you know couple that with uh trying to figure out like harm reduction I think makes a ton of sense but then you've got the alternative with San Francisco looking the way that it does and people ju..."
Empowering Change Through Awareness
In a light-hearted segment, Ben imagines being the 'emperor of the universe' and shares two impactful ideas he would instill in the global consciousness regarding drug safety and public health. He emphasizes the importance of informed choices in combating addiction.
"talking about this more I mean like when I was reading your stuff I was like holy [ __ ] I had no idea and you know I had I I had considered myself fairly well informed on some of these issues and the..."
Future Endeavors and Ongoing Advocacy
Westhoff discusses his upcoming projects, including a novel addressing drug issues and his ongoing speaking engagements. He expresses his commitment to raising awareness about the opioid crisis and the importance of continued dialogue on these critical topics.
"and um you can't kill anyone and you can't you can't put anyone in a re-education cab but what you can do uh Ben is you can have a magic microphone and you can say two things into that magic microphon..."