
46 segments available
Janna Bastow is a former product manager, and currently the CEO and co-founder of ProdPad. She also co-founded Mind the Product, a community for PMs, which has grown to 300,000 members across the world. In today’s podcast, Janna discusses the limitations of timeline-based Gantt charts and her “Now/Next/Later” framework. She also shares stories about hosting conferences and gives some great tips on how to improve your presentation skills and cope with performance anxiety. Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-better-product-roadmaps-janna-bastow-mind-the-product-prodpad/#transcript — Where to find Janna Bastow: • Twitter: https://twitter.com/simplybastow • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jannabastow • The ProdPad newsletter: https://www.prodpad.com/newsletter/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible: • Formsort: https://formsort.com/lenny • Coda: http://coda.io/lenny • Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/ — Referenced: • Mind the Product: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/ • The Trouble with Traditional Roadmaps: https://www.prodpad.com/resources/guides/ditch-the-timeline-roadmap/the-trouble-with-traditional-timeline-roadmaps/ • ProdPad’s Sandbox: https://www.prodpad.com/sandbox/ • Geoffrey Moore’s product vision template: https://www.prodpad.com/blog/product-vision-template/ • The Art of Profitability: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Profitability-Adrian-Slywotzky/dp/0446692271 • The Sandman on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81150303 • Startups for the Rest of Us podcast: https://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/ • Christina Wodtke on Twitter: https://twitter.com/cwodtke — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Janna’s background (05:28) How the community evolved at Mind the Product (08:22) The tricky logistics of putting together a conference (10:48) Are conferences profitable? (13:00) How Janna developed her storytelling and presentation skills (16:44) How to fight performance anxiety (19:25) Mistakes are humanizing—how to power through and deliver your presentation (22:11) The limitations of traditional timeline roadmaps (25:00) Janna’s Now/Next/Later framework (28:08) How to work without the structure of dated timelines, and why soft launches are important (32:57) What great product teams are doing well (35:05) The importance of retrospectives (36:45) How to shift the culture at larger companies (39:43) How ProdPad creates better product management practices (42:04) How to learn the Now/Next/Later framework (46:59) Geoffrey Moore’s product vision template (48:36) Lessons for PMs interested in becoming founders (50:48) Lightning round — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Janna Bastow discusses the concept of roadmaps as prototypes for strategy rather than fixed plans. She emphasizes the importance of using roadmaps to test assumptions about problems being solved, encouraging collaboration and feedback from team members and customers to refine ideas.
"the whole point about a road map is that it's not designed to be your plan I think about it as being a prototype for your strategy what I mean by that is we talk about prototyping all the time in the ..."
In this segment, Lenny introduces Janna Bastow, co-founder of Mind the Product and ProdPad. Janna shares her journey from product manager to founder, highlighting her contributions to the product management community and her innovative roadmapping framework, Now/Next/Later.
"welcome to Lenny's podcast I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing your own products I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to lea..."
Janna reflects on the evolution of the Mind the Product community, emphasizing the grassroots approach that fostered collaboration among product professionals. She shares insights on the importance of consistency and surrounding oneself with the right people to maintain community quality.
"formsort the leading low code form builder for product teams if you work at a startup you've probably experienced the pain of building forms product managers come up with an idea for new onboarding fl..."
Janna discusses the key factors that contributed to the success of Mind the Product, including the importance of collaboration and learning from each other. She highlights how the community grew organically through shared experiences and consistent engagement.
"investor you can sign up for a free account on formstore.com and use promo code Lenny for twenty percent off a form sort Pro Plan [Music] this episode is brought to you by coda coda is an all-in-one d..."
In this segment, Janna shares the logistical challenges of organizing conferences, including the risks and difficulties involved. She recounts a specific incident where catering issues led to a scramble for food, illustrating the unpredictable nature of event planning.
"effectively and have published their templates for anyone to use if you're ping-ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets make your life better and start using Coda you can take advantage of ..."
Janna discusses the financial aspects of running conferences, explaining the thin margins and risks involved. She emphasizes the importance of building a community well in advance to ensure ticket sales and the sustainability of the event.
"decade or so and currently you have a company maybe just mentioned that before we move on because I think it'll be important yep absolutely so that tools that I was talking about turned into prodpad w..."
Reflecting on her experiences, Janna shares valuable lessons learned from mistakes made while building the Mind the Product community. She emphasizes the importance of adaptability and the goodwill built with the community to navigate challenges.
"it grew and consistency as well like just always being there every month holding a product tank every year holding an event and just being there whenever those tends to be there so I'm hearing is just..."
Janna discusses the high-stress nature of event management, highlighting the numerous challenges that can arise. She shares insights on the emotional toll of organizing events and the need for resilience in the face of unexpected issues.
"know that there's thousands and thousands of product people around the world who are taking part in the community in one way shape or former the other and of course some people take part in the big co..."
In this segment, Janna compares the challenges of product management to those of event organization. She reflects on the evolving nature of product management and the skills required to navigate its complexities.
"a plus one for me to never run a conference something I never want to do and this is a reminder of all the pain yeah Comfort conferences are ridiculously hard I mean the thing that I've learned is whe..."
Janna Bastow discusses the complexities and risks involved in organizing conferences. She highlights the importance of building a community before launching events and shares insights on how ticket sales can make or break a conference. Janna emphasizes the unpredictability of the event business, especially in light of challenges like COVID-19.
"hugely risky in hindsight I'm highly surprised we actually made it through some of those first ones if you can do it there are some amazing ways that you can monetize them but it only starts making a ..."
Janna reflects on the high-stress nature of event management, comparing it to product management. She shares her experiences and the emotional toll that comes with organizing events, noting that the pressure can be overwhelming but also rewarding.
"yeah but there again product management was also listed as one of the toughest jobs one of the hardest jobs out there I'm not sure if that still stands but I know product management as it stood 10 yea..."
Janna shares her journey to becoming an effective speaker and storyteller. She emphasizes the importance of communication skills for product leaders and discusses how observing other speakers has helped her refine her own presentation style.
"conferences and speaking I've watched a bunch of your talks online before we started chatting today and a couple of things they noticed one is just an awesome speaker and you're awesome storyteller an..."
Janna recounts her experience working with a speaker coach to improve her presentation skills. She explains how the coach helped her refine her talk, enhance her delivery, and overcome the nerves associated with public speaking.
"that sort of thing but also one of the things that mind the product has been able to provide to speakers is a speaker coach so when I was invited to speak on behind the product stage in 2017 one of th..."
Janna discusses her approach to creating presentations, emphasizing the importance of starting with a narrative rather than focusing on slides. She shares how this shift in mindset has improved her storytelling and presentation effectiveness.
"things she did was make me listen to it and play it back which I had not done before and I still hate doing to this day but I'm now more used to it than before and I don't think anybody likes listenin..."
Janna offers practical tips for managing performance anxiety, including the 'power pose' technique. She explains how physical posture can influence confidence levels before taking the stage.
"one of the things that I've stopped doing is I used to sit down with a PowerPoint and start writing my deck in PowerPoint right or slides now what I now do is I start with my story points I start with..."
Janna shares strategies for connecting with the audience during presentations. She advises speakers to focus on supportive audience members and to visualize the audience to reduce anxiety.
"better as you're getting ready to stand on stage and something that me and other find the product speakers and um you know I've done behind all the big stages that I've done in recent years standing t..."
Janna discusses the placebo effect in relation to public speaking, emphasizing that even if techniques like the power pose lack scientific backing, they can still boost confidence and improve performance.
"that's such a good advice the power pose piece you said that it's like hands on hips I think there's also like when we raise your hands up and you're like Superman or something I think I think there c..."
Janna shares a personal story about her early speaking experiences, highlighting the importance of resilience and the supportive nature of audiences. She encourages speakers to embrace mistakes as part of the learning process.
"and they were all super professional and they're all looking at me and I stood at the front of this group and I was supposed to just not tell them what they were supposed to be doing that day and I've..."
Janna emphasizes that audiences are generally supportive and rooting for speakers to succeed. She discusses how vulnerability and authenticity can enhance the connection with the audience.
"with it that's such a great story and it's a good example of people have this fear of like the worst case scenario everything's gonna fall apart they're gonna be seen as idiots they don't know what th..."
Janna introduces her critical perspective on traditional Gantt charts in roadmapping. She reflects on her past experiences with timeline roadmaps and the challenges they present in product management.
"worse than that like as long as they just remembered their name they'd be fine crack on they got it speaking of screwing up you have some very spicy takes on road mapping and roadmaps and then general..."
Janna emphasizes the importance of flexibility in product roadmaps. She explains how the Now/Next/Later framework allows teams to prioritize tasks without the pressure of strict deadlines, fostering a more adaptive work environment.
"and whatever I can now start using this digitize tool but one of the things that we started hearing from early customers is about a month later they said great but I want to take this and move all the..."
Janna discusses the concept of the cone of uncertainty, highlighting how planning becomes less certain as timelines extend. She advocates for a roadmap that reflects this reality, allowing teams to focus on immediate tasks while acknowledging future uncertainties.
"sat down and we came up with uh three column roadmap current near-term future which we came now next later and it took away the simple concept of a timeline at the top now the problem with the timelin..."
Janna explains how to balance the need for deadlines with the flexibility of the Now/Next/Later framework. She discusses the importance of distinguishing between hard and soft launches to manage expectations effectively.
"because people went oh wait I can just say What's Happening Now what's happening next and what's happening later and if I want to I can add a date to the specific thing but I don't have to and I can b..."
Janna stresses the need for regular communication among teams to ensure alignment on project timelines. She suggests that marketing and sales teams should be kept informed about the current status of product developments.
"States on some of the things that's interesting because I was trying to understand exactly how this approach works we should also mention you came up with this whole idea of now next later which a lot..."
Janna differentiates between soft and hard launches, explaining how soft launches allow for testing and feedback before a full rollout. This approach helps marketing teams prepare effectively without relying on uncertain timelines.
"well we've always thought of amplitude as being about supporting the full product Loop think collect data inform bets ship experiments and learn that's the heart of growth to us so the big aha was see..."
Janna discusses the common pitfalls of relying on strict timelines in product development. She advocates for a more fluid approach that prioritizes quality and adaptability over rigid deadlines.
"there's two questions that this brings up and you may have answered them in part one is just without dates on things how do you make sure marketing and sales and your CEO has things that they need for..."
Janna acknowledges that while flexibility is key, certain projects may require strict deadlines due to regulatory requirements. She emphasizes the need for careful planning to meet these critical dates without compromising quality.
"marketing and sales teams is separating your hard launch from your soft launch so you know what you should be doing is basically saying your developers are able to launch something on a particular dat..."
Janna highlights the tension between speed and quality in product development. She argues that teams should focus on delivering high-quality products rather than rushing to meet arbitrary deadlines.
"better for marketing anyways because they're not setting up their launch steps based on something that they don't have eyes on there's nothing worse than the marketers trying to Market something based..."
Janna reflects on the traits that distinguish high-performing product teams from mediocre ones. She emphasizes the importance of effective processes, hiring practices, and a commitment to continuous improvement.
"they're done that marketing isn't okay great what have you built we're ready to work on the next thing so you're just separating soft launch from hard launch so that you don't have this stress of tryi..."
Janna Bastow discusses how smaller product teams can outpace larger organizations by focusing on delivery rather than getting bogged down in timelines and approvals. She highlights the agility of these teams, which allows them to build and iterate quickly without the constant back-and-forth that often slows down larger teams.
"where compared to these tiny teams who are just out delivering them and just spinning things out the door they're the ones who aren't spending all their time going are we certain this is going to deli..."
Bastow reflects on the evolution of product management practices, noting that the Now/Next/Later framework has become increasingly accepted. She emphasizes how this approach has shifted the expectations of product teams, moving away from traditional timelines to a more flexible and iterative method of working.
"more than a lot of other folks and so I was curious what percentage of teams that you see are what you'd call like top-notch highly functional product teams that's a good push-up don't think I've got ..."
In this segment, Janna identifies key traits that separate high-performing product teams from mediocre ones. She emphasizes the importance of discovery, psychological safety, and open communication, which allow teams to question processes and learn from each other effectively.
"change the expectations of the audience I guess putting the now next later he's to the site for one moment I'm curious what else have you seen separates the best product teams from mediocre product te..."
Janna discusses the significance of retrospectives in product teams, highlighting how they foster psychological safety and encourage continuous learning. She explains that teams that regularly reflect on their processes and outcomes are more likely to adapt and improve their product development practices.
"questions less silos things what's the lasting change that a team has made that made them significantly better at Building Product is it these two things doing more Discovery and maybe more safety ima..."
Bastow shares insights on the challenges of transforming product development culture in larger organizations. She likens cultural change to 'calcification,' emphasizing the need for incremental changes and the importance of finding advocates within the company to drive the shift towards more agile practices.
"expectations of what's going to be done and when because that was really only done because some head honcho wanted to see that information that wasn't psychological safety that was somebody hitting th..."
In this segment, Janna explains how to initiate change within large companies by identifying small teams or departments that can experiment with new methodologies. She emphasizes the importance of leadership support and how successful small-scale changes can influence broader organizational practices.
"companies larger companies are tough they're tougher right I think of culture as calcification so calcification being the Limestone that you know is built up as slaughtered run over and that sort of t..."
Janna discusses the competitive landscape for large companies, particularly how startups can disrupt established businesses. She highlights the need for larger organizations to innovate and adapt to avoid losing market share to more agile competitors.
"a lot of these larger companies they're incentivized to keep the company as stable as possible to keep the company just growing quarter on quarter which is great for the stock market right they love t..."
Bastow shares her experiences with implementing the Now/Next/Later framework in large enterprises. She describes how initial buy-in from advocates within the organization can lead to broader acceptance and transformation in product management practices.
"being willing to take the dip to move upwards what's the biggest company that you've implemented this new way of building and is that how you approached it you found a team within the larger company t..."
In this segment, Janna explains how using ProdPad not only helps teams deliver products but also enhances their overall product management skills. She discusses how the tool encourages thoughtful planning and reflection, making it easier for teams to adopt better practices.
"within the business because one of the things about broadbed is that it's not just a tool to help you deliver products it's actually a tool that helps you become a better product manager like it sets ..."
Janna introduces the concept of treating roadmaps as prototypes for strategy. She emphasizes the importance of sharing assumptions and gathering feedback to refine product direction, highlighting that the process of roadmapping is as valuable as the final product.
"of this sort of work if someone wanted to experiment with now next later what would be a good place to go and just start to play around with it I mean you can start a free trial in broadpad you can st..."
In this concluding segment, Janna addresses skepticism about adopting the Now/Next/Later framework. She provides compelling reasons for teams to embrace this approach, drawing parallels with how other departments operate and encouraging product teams to adopt a more experimental mindset.
"mapping process what you're actually doing is laying out your assumptions of the problems that you're solving so you're saying I think we have this problem then this problem what do you think the whol..."
Janna discusses the value of treating product development like an experiment, where outcomes are uncertain but guided by a structured process. She draws parallels with sales strategies, advocating for a mindset that embraces trial and error, allowing teams to learn from both successes and failures.
"they don't know that what they do know is that they have a process by which they're going to fill a pipeline and almost certainly they're going to to be able to close a million pounds worth of or a mi..."
Janna introduces her framework for developing a product vision, inspired by Geoffrey Moore's elevator pitch template. She outlines key components that define a product's target customer, needs, and differentiation, providing a structured approach for product managers to articulate their vision effectively.
"so you're not asking for any more leeway than your sales person what you should be able to do is point at how many experiments you ran the previous quarter and what numbers moved in the right directio..."
Janna shares insights for product managers aspiring to become founders. She highlights the transferable skills gained as a PM, the importance of surrounding oneself with knowledgeable people, and the need to embrace challenges as part of the entrepreneurial journey.
"very exciting lightning round which I didn't tell you about we'll see how that goes so one is you have an interesting framework for coming up with a product vision and I don't know if you have this in..."
In this segment, Janna offers practical advice for product managers looking to transition into entrepreneurship. She encourages them to take risks, learn from experiences, and leverage their existing skills while building a supportive network to navigate the challenges of starting a business.
"the last question European not your founder so you moved from pm to founder and a lot of PMS imagined being Founders someday I'm curious if you have any advice for folks that are currently PMS that ma..."
Janna participates in a lightning round, sharing her favorite books, shows, and podcasts. She highlights 'The Art of Profitability' and 'Startups for the Rest of Us,' providing quick insights into her preferences and the resources she values in the product management and startup communities.
"and there's always going to be bumps like you don't know what they're going to be yet there's always going to be things that are going to come by and sideswipe you but that's always the case that you ..."
Janna invites listeners to connect with her on social media and explore ProdPad. She emphasizes the importance of feedback from fellow product professionals and encourages engagement with the community to enhance product management practices.
"amazing I think we covered a lot of different topics more than we often cover in a podcast like this two final questions where can folks find you online if they'd like to reach out and learn more and ..."