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Garry Kasparov: IBM Deep Blue, AlphaZero, and the Limits of AI in Open Systems | AI Podcast Clips
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This is a clip from a conversation with Garry Kasparov from Oct 2019. New full episodes once or twice a week and 1-2 new clips or a new non-podcast video on all other days. You can watch the full conversation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVa0THWUWw (more links below) Podcast full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Podcasts clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/ai Podcast on Apple Podcasts (iTunes): https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Podcast on Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 Podcast RSS: https://lexfridman.com/category/ai/feed/ Note: I select clips with insights from these much longer conversation with the hope of helping make these ideas more accessible and discoverable. Ultimately, this podcast is a small side hobby for me with the goal of sharing and discussing ideas. For now, I post a few clips every Tue & Fri. I did a poll and 92% of people either liked or loved the posting of daily clips, 2% were indifferent, and 6% hated it, some suggesting that I post them on a separate YouTube channel. I hear the 6% and partially agree, so am torn about the whole thing. I tried creating a separate clips channel but the YouTube algorithm makes it very difficult for that channel to grow unless the main channel is already very popular. So for a little while, I'll keep posting clips on the main channel. I ask for your patience and to see these clips as supporting the dissemination of knowledge contained in nuanced discussion. If you enjoy it, consider subscribing, sharing, and commenting. Garry Kasparov is considered by many to be the greatest chess player of all time. From 1986 until his retirement in 2005, he dominated the chess world, ranking world number 1 for most of those 19 years. While he has many historic matches against human chess players, in the long arc of history he may be remembered for his match again a machine, IBM's Deep Blue. His initial victories and eventual loss to Deep Blue captivated the imagination of the world of what role Artificial Intelligence systems may play in our civilization's future. That excitement inspired an entire generation of AI researchers, including myself, to get into the field. Garry is also a pro-democracy political thinker and leader, a fearless human-rights activist, and author of several books including How Life Imitates Chess which is a book on strategy and decision-making, Winter Is Coming which is a book articulating his opposition to the Putin regime, and Deep Thinking which is a book the role of both artificial intelligence and human intelligence in defining our future. Subscribe to this YouTube channel or connect on: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman
Segments Timeline
The Seminal Moment of Deep Blue
Garry Kasparov reflects on his historic loss to IBM's Deep Blue in 1997, describing it as a pivotal moment in human history. He discusses the significance of chess as a representation of human intellectual achievement and the emotional pain he felt from the defeat, emphasizing that it was not just about the game but the implications for AI and humanity's future.
"your loss to IBM d blue in 1997 in my eyes that is one of the most seminal moments in the history again I apologize for being romanticized in the notion but in the history of our civilization because ..."
Understanding the Pain of Defeat
Kasparov delves into the psychological impact of losing to a machine for the first time. He shares his anger and frustration, believing that his loss was influenced by factors beyond his control, and reflects on the broader implications of this defeat for the perception of chess as the pinnacle of human intellect.
"or was that exactly why was that powerful as I already said losing was painful physically passing and the match I lost in 1997 was not the first match I lost to a machine he knows the first match I lo..."
Machines in Closed Systems
In this segment, Kasparov explains how machines excel in closed systems like chess by minimizing mistakes rather than solving the game. He discusses the implications of this for future AI developments, asserting that machines will always outperform humans in structured environments due to their ability to maintain consistency and accuracy.
"probably one exception is that considering chess you know as the sort of as a pinnacle of intellectual activities without mistake because you know we just thought oh it's a it's a game of the highest ..."
The Evolution of Chess and AI
Kasparov reflects on the evolution of chess engines and their superiority over human players. He compares modern chess engines to past machines, emphasizing the growing gap in performance and the need for humans to adapt to this new reality where collaboration with machines becomes essential.
"moment you build a closed system no matter how this system is called chess go froggie daughter machines will prevail simply because they will bring down number of mistakes machines don't have to solve..."
The Shift from Competition to Collaboration
In this insightful discussion, Kasparov highlights the transition from viewing chess as a competition between humans and machines to recognizing the importance of collaboration. He shares his experiences in subsequent matches and the realization that humans can work alongside machines to enhance their capabilities.
"of affairs was alpha zero you beating other machines the idea that we can compete with computers in so-called intellectual fields it's it was wrong from the very beginning it's just it's by the way in..."
The Future of AI and Human Interaction
Kasparov discusses the future of AI, emphasizing the unique qualities of human intelligence that machines cannot replicate. He warns against overstepping in areas where machines excel and advocates for a balanced approach to human-machine collaboration, particularly in fields requiring nuanced understanding.
"didn't have enough time if you play a longer match we will not make the same mistake nonsense so this yeah we had more time but we still make mistakes and machine also has more time and machines machi..."
AlphaZero: A New Era of AI
In this segment, Kasparov introduces AlphaZero as a groundbreaking advancement in AI, marking a shift towards machine-generated knowledge. He reflects on the implications of AlphaZero's learning capabilities and its potential to revolutionize the understanding of strategy in games like chess.
"the bloomin dip I'm not speaking about chess engines that are so much superior and by the way when you analyze games who played against the blue 90 97 on your chess engine they'll be laughing yeah so ..."
The Limits of Machine Learning
Kasparov explores the limitations of machine learning, particularly in open-ended systems. He discusses how machines struggle to ask the right questions and the importance of human intuition in guiding AI development, emphasizing the need for a collaborative approach to maximize the strengths of both.
"think just like chess that might fall soon with the same set of approaches if you look at alpha zero the same kind of learning approaches as the machines grow in size no it's talking about the growing..."
Recognizing Human Value in AI
In this concluding segment, Kasparov stresses the importance of recognizing human contributions in the age of AI. He argues that while machines can outperform humans in many areas, there are unique human qualities that remain invaluable, and understanding this balance is crucial for future advancements.
"into the game so the greatest danger is when we try to interfere with machines superior knowledge so that's why I always say that sometimes you'd rather have by reading these systrace pictures in radi..."