"can you imagine possible features that python 4.0 might have that would necessitate the creation of the new 4.0 given the amount of pain and joy suffering and Triumph that was involved in the move bet..."

"the following is a conversation with Guido van Rossum his second time on this podcast he is the creator of the Python programming language and is Python's Emeritus pdfo benevolent dictator for life th..."

"python implementation standing also the first one that was ever created the original python implementation that I started over 30 years ago so what does it mean that python the programming language is..."

"make him mad I'm sure he has a cell phone so uh he's probably very suspicious about what goes on in that cell phone but he must have heard that inside his cell phone is a tiny computer and a programmi..."

"a difference and it could be that there are Regional variations in how China native Chinese speakers pronounce that one sound that sounds to L to some like L to some of them like R to others so it's b..."

"languages I think ambiguity is a feature not a bug in human spoken languages like uh that's the dance of communication between humans well for lawyers ambiguity certainly is a feature uh for plenty of..."

"you go through and pepe the style guide for python code some ideas of what this language should look like feel like read like and the big idea there is that code readability counts what does that mean..."

"the instructions that he gives to the computer so that the thing is there is a difference between a cookbook recipe and a computer program The cookbook recipe the the author of The cookbook writes it ..."

"debugging and you end up with the activity of so debugging is trying to figure out why your code doesn't run the way you thought it should run that means brother could be stupid little errors or it co..."

"but there's also like a spatial structure to it can you explain the indentation style of python and what is the magic to it space bases are important for readability of any kind of text if you take a ..."

"um but there is a strictness to the spacing that python defines so there's some a looser thing some stricter things but the four spaces for the for the indentation is really interesting it it really u..."

"think also all the Google C plus plus code is indented with only two spaces per block if you're not used to that it's harder to at a glance understand the code because the the sort of the the high lev..."

"you're also not sort of misled into putting them where they don't belong because you don't learn about them in the first place the flip side of that is forcing the strictness onto the beginning progra..."

"because a very earliest shells had a notion of scripting but they did not have a notion of parameterizing the scripting right and so a script is just a few lines of text where each line of text is a c..."

"already has a meaning because that presumably means X itself is the file it's a file name it's not a variable name uh and so the inventors of of things like the unique shell and I'm sure job command l..."

"and so it was was sort of invented as a clever way to make parsing of things that contain but contain both variable and fixed parts very easy in a very simple script processor it also helps even then ..."

"just like biological systems right I mean that the sort of the inner workings of DNA have been stable for well I don't know how long it was like 300 million years half a billion years yeah and there t..."

"and there are error correcting or self-correcting mechanisms at many levels including probably the user of the code well in the end the user who sort of is told well you got to reboot your your PC is ..."

"out there from the code that runs nuclear weapons to the code that runs all the amazing companies that you've been involved with and not the code that runs Twitter and Facebook and Dropbox and Google ..."

"mature software that that is considered interesting as good as it gets can I give you some facts here there's a lot of good papers so you said mature software right so here's uh a report from a uh lik..."

"identifying and fixing bugs imagine this is marketing literature for someone who claims to have a golden bullet or a silver bullet that makes all that investment in fixing bugs go away but that that i..."

"bugs oh absolutely isn't that scary that 70 bucks per 1000 lines of code so even 10 bucks per thousand lives well that's about one bug after every 15 lines and that's when you're first typing it in ye..."

"my code watch anyone give you a little coding demonstration they'll have to produce like four lines of code and now see how many times they use the backspace key yeah because they made a mistake and a..."

"so I don't know what your definition of bug is arguably mistyping a word and then correcting it immediately is not a bug on the other hand you you already do sort of lose time and every once in a whil..."

"way I should mention that I use the Kinesis keyboard which has the backspace under the thumb and one of the biggest reasons I use that keyboard is because you realize in order to use the backspace on ..."

"you are um but also it's a you know for a lot of people for me certainly there's a comfort space where there's a certain kind of setups that are maximized productivity and um it's like some people hav..."

"not well you know in most cases like that the particular technology eventually gets replaced but many of the concepts that the technology introduced or made accessible first are preserved of course be..."

"I mean flash was an innovation when it first came up and when it was replaced by JavaScript equivalence stuff it was a somewhat better way to do animations but those animations are still there not all..."

"ten times you sort of you discover something that's better or that's that somehow works I mean there are all sorts of crazy things that were invented uh by accident by people trying trying stuff toget..."

"I had a very difficult in my own head Brave leap that I had to take relevant to our discussion which is most of my life I programmed in C and C plus plus and so uh having that hammer everything looked..."

"face that kind of decision it was a difficult decision for me um when I made it at this time it's an obvious switch if you're into machine learning but at that time it wasn't quite yet so obvious so i..."

"community about where you predict the community's headed what large systems are programmed in that but can you create that spreadsheet because that sort of you're mentioning a whole bunch of inputs th..."

"so 3.11 is coming out one of the big sexy things in it is it'll be much faster so how did you beyond hiring a great team or working with a great team make it faster what are some ideas uh that may mak..."

"the chef yeah what are the algorithmically tricky things that happen to be low-hanging fruit that could be improved on maybe throughout the history of python but also now how is it possible that 3.11 ..."

"efficient what's adjust in time compiler that is a thing from the Java World although it's now applied to almost all uh programming languages especially interpreted ones so you see the compile inside ..."

"no such thing as adding two numbers there's just an the the compiler doesn't know that you're adding two numbers you might as well be adding two strings or two lists uh or two instances of some user-d..."

"the basics of ant and float and add who carries the knowledge of how to add two integers is it the integer it's the type integer versus it's the type integer and the type float what about the operator..."

"in a particular line of code so now you you write your little Python program and you write a function and that function sort of takes a bunch of inputs and at some point it adds two of the inputs toge..."

"code if it's this if it's the same type all the time uh we say oh so this add operation even though it's the generic ad operation it might as well be the add integer operation and add integer operatio..."

"waste that much time and statistically uh most of the time basically we were sort of hoping that most of the time we guess right because if we if it turns out that we guessed wrong too often uh or we ..."

"understand how people are using the language right python is not the first language to do a thing like this this is a fairly well-known trick especially from other interpreted languages that had reaso..."

"and so we made we made a choice of not using the annotations there there is a possible future where eventually three four five releases in the future we could start using those annotations to sort of ..."

"libraries that uh are in that business so it's possible to do that kind of thing it's possible to for a third party library to take a hint and enforce it it seems like a tricky thing what what well wh..."

"well so my pie uh was started by a Finnish uh developer ukulele so many cool things out of Finland I gotta say just that part of the world I guess people have nothing better to do in those long cold W..."

"JavaScript old school JavaScript AES whatever well in the JavaScript world transpilers are sort of the standard way of working anyway which is why typescript being a transpiler itself is not a big dea..."

"yeah just to look at it as almost like a biological system that's evolving it's fascinating to see JavaScript evolve the way it does well maybe we should consider that biological systems are just the ..."

"Facebook was one of the first they decided that they wanted to use the same technology that they had successfully used for hhvm because they they sort of they had a bunch of compiler writers and and s..."

"syntax that they're trying to push uh and worse once we've all agreed that we are going to put some new syntax in we can never take it back at least a sort of deprecating an existing feature takes man..."

"laboratory of experiments yep Microsoft Google and all and you get to see and you see that everywhere right because there's not one single uh JavaScript in engine either there is one in Chrome there i..."

"wow I wonder how they measured that did they just scan all of GitHub yeah that's what it looks like yeah they did a quick sentence all of but like a random sampling so you mentioned pie charm let me a..."

"I didn't have very good Tooling in emacs for finding a definition of a function got it when I was at Dropbox exploring a 5 million line python code base uh just grabbing all that code for where they'r..."

"practice typing you can actually estimate back to the spreadsheet the number of paragraphs sentences or words you write for the rest of your life yes I mean all of that is not actual like converting t..."

"going to stop you uh I I think that that sort of everybody has to decide for themselves which one they want to to invest more time in I actually ended up giving vs code a very tentative try when I sta..."

"what other peripherals you have and and so the sort of the the extreme extensibility and the package ecosystem that you that you see in vs code is a is a mirror of very similar architectural features ..."

"like a typical web server does so iOS input and outputs you're writing either to the network network connection or reading and writing to a hard drive the story also possible and you can do uh the ide..."

"proposed and you were deeply involved with that at the time I was very much involved with that I was like the lead architect uh I ended up talking to people who had already developed Syria's third-par..."

"a paradigm where there is sort of notionally a threat of control whether it's an actual operating system thread or more an abstraction in async IO we call them tasks but a task in async IO or a thread..."

"to callbacks okay beautiful so how does that all interplay with the infamous Gill the goal the global interpreter lock maybe can you say what the Gill is and how does the dance beautifully with Ace in..."

"did you shed a single tier while looking out over the horizon I'm not not a very poetic person and I don't shed tears like that but no yeah we we actually had planned a party but the party was planned..."

"is heavily based on C extensions and that is like the entire machine learning data science Scientific Python world is all based on C extensions for python and so those people would likely feel the pai..."

"for something significant is using third-party extensions they're like I don't know several hundreds of thousands of third-party extensions on uh the Pi Pi service and I'm not saying they're old they'..."

"to test the waters see what they need to syntactically to be able to compile at all maybe they're using functions that are defined by the Python 3 runtime that won't be in the python 4 runtime those f..."

"uh out of the Pi Pi packages Pi Pi packages uh do you have uh do you have ones you like do you in your opinion other must have Pi Pi libraries or ones you use all the time constantly oh my that I shou..."

"alternative anyway and we're sort of slowly removing those that often those are things that I sort of I spiked somewhere in 1992 or 1993 and if you look look through the commit history it's very sad l..."

"because DNA search was all based on regular expressions and pearl has the fastest and most comprehensive regular expression engine still does I spent quite a long time with pearl that was another lett..."

"fundamental mathematical algorithms of linear algebra and and other stuff and so gradually some libraries started appearing that did very fundamental stuff with arrays of numbers in Python I mean when..."

"why why start from scratch in Pearl or JavaScript where there's not that infrastructure for arrays of numbers yet whereas in Python you have it and so more and more scientists at different places doin..."

"forks out uh is to community fostering things So speaking of egalitarian last time we talked four years ago it was just after you stepped down from your role as the benevolent dictator for life pdfo l..."

"I probably held on to the position too long I remember being just extremely stressed for a long time and it wasn't very clear to me what was leading what was causing the stress and looking back uh I I..."

"it's still hard to say what are Python's core principles but the fact that I was playing that role and sort of always very active grew the community in a certain way it modeled to the community how to..."

"are things I can just ignore yeah oh yeah there's a bug in multi-processing let someone else decide whether that's important to solve or not I'll I'll stick to typing in the async io and the faster in..."

"guy was in charge of of infrastructure one year and the next year he was made in charge of I don't know product development it's fascinating because like you don't think about these companies internal..."

"well and in what ways do you provide value and happiness to the world make sure you do that well um is there something else to say about Google and Microsoft Microsoft has said a very fascinating shif..."

"is that I've never learned how to use Excel well I mean it just always felt like so many features are there it's similar with ideas like pie charm it feels like I I converge quickly to the dumbest way..."

"pivot a company towards open source or develop a culture is there something you could see about like how what's the role of leadership in such a pivot and definition of a new vision I've never met him..."

"the basics right yeah you can't expect to Learn Python from a one hour video recording blanking out on the name of of someone who who wrote a very funny blog post where he said I see all these ads for..."

"you guys you build layers of abstractions I mean most programmers nowadays rarely need to do binary arithmetic right yeah or even think about it or even learn about it or they could go quite far witho..."

"it's nice the other day as a sort of a mental exercise I was trying to figure out if I could build a a flip-flop circuit out of uh relays it was just sort of trying to remember oh how does it really r..."

"that I I could still do a little bit of problem solving and thinking at that level and it's cool how we build on top of each other so there's people that are just you you stood on the shoulders of gia..."

"figures out how it itself Works maybe maybe not yeah I did I mean it's it's possible I mean if you think of human consciousness if that's even the right concept it's it's interesting that that sort of..."

"over time it goes on that way and those computers when they go to college try to figure out how to program and they built their own little computers they're increasingly more intelligent increasingly ..."