"your podcast is a podcast by a builder for other builders here's the most interesting question I think people can ask Builders what is your energy source my energy source is dissatisfaction with stus ..."

"lka this episode is brought to you by cinch the customer Communications Cloud here's the thing about Digital customer Communications whether you're sending marketing campaigns Verification codes or ac..."

"Lenny Toby thank you so much for being here welcome to the podcast I'm glad to be here I'm excited for our conversation I've listened to so many of your other interviews I've talked to a bunch of peop..."

"just not a that's not that's not a path forward that I see valid I I understand that's what a lot of people choose to do um so yeah like um compressing time is important and um you know like I I I I t..."

"because everyone's unambitious and so um I have found that reminding people of their own potential constantly is actually a wonderful thing to do um and and I have a history of being right about uh pe..."

"um I I I I find that uh like like in a way Shopify has been an wonderful um experimental lab for this sort of conviction and um um uh I I've just seen this to come um to to be true and of course heari..."

"basically model learning how to cheat on The Benchmark on or like on on on on on the fitness function so there's a business analogy of this which is that U not actually analogy there it's called good ..."

"afterwards you can build like you can find the schools that you like for I mean just like supplying this for us for us it was just m maintaining curiosity I like this is a completely different goal fr..."

"a company to work that way because a lot of people will try it and fail this is very close to what what I just talked about with overfitting but um a good heart's law is real the moment you create a l..."

"um what Shopify attempts to do um is to um and in a lot of different places this is one of them but also in products is just not uh overfitting for the quantifiable because I think there is like again..."

"um the the the you know do the unit test pass the unit tests might not pass and the unit test will pass 15 minutes later because we we we fix them or or adjust the one or two things um so they support..."

"right like and so I think there needs to be more acceptance uh in businesses of unquantifiable things one the most powerful thing the most powerful uh not unquantifiable things in the world of busines..."

"support function where um we often defer to uh just more you know sometimes a little bit emotional but like generally less um quantifiable things I imagine if someone were to hear you describe this uh..."

"like I've at this point like kind of learned to um well first of all I've I've always kind of ignored um uh you know what people think generally um um that came pretty natively to me somehow which I'm..."

"astray this is an awesome segue to the other theme that I wanted to spend some time on which is thinking from first principles Elon is the classic example of that honestly I think you're the other mos..."

"builder um for other builders here's the most interesting question I think people uh can ask Builders it's like what is your energy source where like what are you where are you getting energy from I I..."

"very quickly goes into the emotions actually there's a really so I watched the last dance like a the the Netflix special of uh like Michael Jordan a while ago of course but there was like one scene wh..."

"that was not possible back van because we didn't have the right architecture for this but now it is so I think what you have to do is to actually have when you come up with a new product or you discus..."

"do the same thing it just it's like exatic not possible to do um it's like fails archimedian logic um yet it's something it's you would be amazed how many business plans are actually um failing ariman..."

"um also solving all the Enterprise cases because no one had to like enterprise software is uh overfit to the sales process um which is that um it wins the RPS because it has every feature ever or at l..."

"thing then figure out how to uh optimize it then automate it uh what I'm hearing so far and I'm curious if you've thought about this enough or and if not this feels like a really good blog post in the..."

"also easy for us to say cool we are going to be remote only forever like let's go um and um because we we we realized that the temporal shelter in place would cause a series of events that would make ..."

"making mistakes um or that the presence of a kind of downside of an idea ends up disqualifying the idea both those things are incorrect so um what you need to do then is uh so so like that was an over..."

"go this episode is brought to you by loom loom lets you record your screen your camera and your voice to share video messages easily record a loom and send it out with just a link to gather feedback a..."

"stack concept that you've touched on a couple times that I think but before we get there I want to kind of go in a different direction which I think is an interesting uh foundational element to your a..."

"with all these remarkable people who join us on Journey just like like building stuff it's like I mean I do my job so that that is the jobs that exist for other people that's the job I actually want t..."

"have I have like I mean I I have a view on my screen left of you is uh uh cursor right now um where um which is opened to a um a juniper notebook where I'm um working on some projection stuff um that ..."

"I thought the story was important is and the reason I think your first principal approach works is you're you're actually in the engineering details similar to Elon if you think about it of just like ..."

"conform to the sort of traditional view of what CEOs of public companies should be like or even should spend their time but I think I'm successful because I don't uh uh try to conform to anything othe..."

"effort for so it's a kind of thing that actually is like something I'm I'm I'm uniquely positioned to be involved with because it's actually a business strategy thing as well it's like that's an inves..."

"a main canes um uh School of um you know when the facts change I change my opinion what do you do sir it's like sounds like um a better OS to go by so it's awesome because I'm extracting more of these..."

"okay this actually is a good sideway to something else that uh someone that you work with suggested ask you for Han your head of engineering asked them what's the best way to kind of get a glimpse int..."

"than than courage so so so I I like that I wish it wouldn't require that I this is why I try to be very inviting of it um so when someone disagrees with me I uh I I I tend to immediately stop and sayi..."

"very good um so yeah like how to disagree I I you know I really like uh I really like debate I um will play de dev's Advocate um actively if everyone agrees on something and again especially if you ha..."

"and um um uh and and and and millions and millions tin decisions so you're not hiring Engineers for the M primarily or like uh accountants you're hiring people who make excellent decisions um given th..."

"like that because otherwise this ends up being like just like taking way too long but give opportunity for everyone to change you know my mind over glance mind and so on like it's an excellent practic..."

"that you shared about building one product building towards One Vision this actually reminds me of something that came up basically every time I had someone from Shopify on which is this idea of a hun..."

"want more of this we want um want people to be able to window shop for a place where they can be enormously successful because it just the place's set of beliefs just fits you like a glove and so um 1..."

"as a courageous act and a glorious act even but that's not true in most of the world in fact most of most people never encounter anyone who engages in doing that right like um it's not something peopl..."

"but like man like if they just look at a marshmallow they just eat it right like so so Mo most CEOs most companies can't even success successfully do that and um just like engage in like this sort of ..."

"PowerPoint from investment bankers or so like it's like they they tell me I have enormous PR pricing power and I could like massively change in prices I'm like yeah but like I'd leave Shopify if that ..."

"mission of a company are in uh in in in alignment but they are again non-quantifiable things um they they are Pursuits um and um maybe at time Horizons that go past all of our term Horizon for our car..."

"which I think we need a Toby version of this book with the forward and uh I heard Simon simok wrote a book of a similar title I've actually never gotten around to read it but like I think he would be ..."

"don't need be extrinsic appreciation for it I suppose um there's um uh millions millions millions of people um um that uh use shop by daily um and uh that's that that is represents the business and um..."

"definitely take off S side of um what we have determined is that every single time um we make a complex thing simpler it is actually that more businesses will exist on a platform so it's it's I I thin..."

"discourages people already which is not super helpful so now you have a situation where uh you know people are telling you to quit um potentially um um you are like you don't have a lot of money presu..."

"that shouldn't exist anyway let stop in this way in fact it's actually and this is again what the data says so many businesses get very close to this point many many time I can tell you Shopify did ma..."

"are overly complex like or shouldn't even be there it's just physically painful because I know like like it's like all these business that are like that that that were trying to get some like somewher..."

"most profound insightful pieces of software I've encountered and as a connoisseur of good ideas I've never had this as a valuable thing it feels like an um a step function upgrade to the traditional A..."

"just like I follow my curiosity I I love programming and I loved computers and I loved the internet when it came along and I just like cool I'm gonna find a task that I find valuable which I sort of l..."

"like it's it's it's great fun great fun for me I don't know how much of a advice that is but maybe a proof point that that can work really well um I I I some this voo that like things like this end up..."

"at yeah yeah so this is what we very actively tell our customers right like there's a a 2005 essay by Kevin Kelly saying the like in the future on the internet you just need a thousand true fans um it..."

"for your career too because by the way we are all entrepreneurs so the way to think about any career if you actually ask me for career advice is um we are products like we are engaged in entrepreneurs..."

"podcast conversation we can have I know you have to go run this n and 10,000 person company and do real work so I'm going to end it there we got through almost everything I was hoping to get through b..."

"just kind of again it so much goes into this um unquantifiable conversation which we already had but boy is that important because it just isn't about the brief document like it isn't about the aligni..."