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Competing with giants: An inside look at how The Browser Company builds product | Josh Miller (CEO)
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Josh Miller is the CEO and co-founder of The Browser Company, where he helped build Arc, my go-to web browser. In today’s episode, we get an inside look at the unique structure and values of The Browser Company and how their company culture has helped them land some of the best talent in tech. Josh shares ways that his company embraces experimentation, including their “optimizing for feelings” approach to building, and explains why extreme transparency is at the forefront of everything they do. Special invite link to skip the waitlist: https://arc.net/gift/lenny — Brought to you by Writer—Generative AI for the enterprise | Dovetail—Bring your customer into every decision | Linear—The new standard for modern software development Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look-at-how-the-browser-company-builds-product-josh-miller-ceo/#transcript Where to find Josh Miller: • Twitter: https://twitter.com/joshm • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-miller-b31259106/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ Referenced: • Early access to Arc: https://arc.net/gift/lenny • The Browser Company: https://thebrowser.company/ • Hursh Agrawal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hurshagrawal/ • Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/ • Scott Belsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottbelsky/ • Notes on Roadtrips: https://thebrowser.company/values/ • Shahed Khan on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_shahedk • Paper by FiftyThree: https://www.hellobrio.com/blog/digital-drawing-paper-fiftythree • Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/ • Peter Vidani on Twitter: https://twitter.com/pter • The Verge: https://www.theverge.com/ • Ellis Hamburger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellishamburger/ • Airbnb’s Snow White project: https://uxdesign.cc/how-airbnb-proved-that-storytelling-is-the-most-important-skill-in-design-15d04ac71039 • General Magic: https://www.generalmagicthemovie.com/ • Linear: https://linear.app/ • Raycast: https://www.raycast.com/ • Cron: https://cron.com/ • Thrive Capital: https://thrivecap.com/ • Tuple: https://tuple.app/ • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ • Harold and the Purple Crayon: https://www.amazon.com/Harold-Purple-Crayon-Crockett-Johnson/dp/0062086529 • Seeing Is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Forgetting-Name-Thing-Sees/dp/0520256093/ • God Save Texas: A Journey into the Soul of the Lone Star State: https://www.amazon.com/God-Save-Texas-Journey-State/dp/0525520104 • The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us • Adam Curtis documentaries on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLStWlBRkr0N_aYjPmbrrjm_rsstpkUBLc • Notion: https://www.notion.so/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Josh’s background (04:37) Arc and the metrics they use to track growth (05:23) Arc’s retention numbers (09:03) Josh’s product-building philosophy and why he believes in optimizing for feelings (19:38) How The Browser Company’s values create a culture that allows them to ship so quickly (23:27) The “Notes on Roadtrips” doc about values (28:29) How Josh is able to hire such amazing talent (38:10) The good and bad of building in public (45:57) Some of the odd teams at The Browser Company and why Josh calls it a prototype-driven culture (46:42) The membership team (48:48) The storytelling team (52:41) Why The Browser Company doesn’t have traditional PMs (54:48) A case for adding PMs (58:13) The role of data, even in a company that optimizes for feelings (59:11) Airbnb’s Snow White project (1:02:55) How impactful moments in Josh’s life influenced values at The Browser Company (1:03:49) How the film General Magic has inspired Josh (1:05:13) The value of novel names (1:07:31) Why The Browser Company’s approach works for Arc (1:13:28) Why you need to nail latency and why Josh loves Tupl (1:15:14) The shift to cloud computing and the ultimate vision at The Browser Company (1:23:56) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Segments Timeline
Optimizing for Feelings
Josh Miller discusses the common obsession in Silicon Valley with metrics and numbers, explaining how The Browser Company prioritizes optimizing for feelings instead. He emphasizes the importance of understanding how users feel when interacting with their software, aiming to evoke emotions like joy, organization, and focus.
"Silicon Valley at least the most modern version of Silicon Valley has this obsession with graphs and has this obsession with numbers and metrics I mean you saw me in the previous answer I'm talking ab..."
The Power of Product Experience
In this segment, Josh reflects on the romantic notion of optimizing for feelings in product development. He contrasts this with the traditional focus on metrics, arguing that the essence of great products lies in the emotional connection they create with users, drawing on examples from iconic brands like Nike and Disney.
"how does the software how do we want to make someone feel on the other end of our software do we want to make them feel Joy do we want to make them feel fast do we want to make them feel organized do ..."
A New Approach to Metrics
Josh shares insights on how The Browser Company tracks user engagement through a unique metric called D5 D7, which measures how many users engage with Arc at least five days a week. He explains the significance of this metric in capturing retention and growth, emphasizing a focus on relative growth rates rather than absolute numbers.
"romantic because they're like okay you're optimizing for feelings [Music] welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won exper..."
Retention and Engagement Insights
In this segment, Josh reveals the retention rates for Arc, discussing how they measure success through cohort analysis. He highlights the importance of improving retention over time and expresses pride in the upward trend of their retention curve, despite the challenges of scaling.
"clear I'm not an investor in the browser company and I barely knew anything about the company before I chatted with Josh so I'm just a fan and as a special surprise Arc is normally invite only but if ..."
The Philosophy Behind Product Building
Josh elaborates on his product-building philosophy as a reaction to traditional Silicon Valley methods. He emphasizes the need for a human-centered approach, focusing on how products make users feel rather than solely relying on data and metrics.
"an already widely deployed it world-class Brands like uber Spotify HubSpot and uipath with writer you can break through content bottlenecks across your organization for our marketing web pages to sale..."
Creating Meaningful Connections
Josh discusses the importance of understanding the emotional impact of products, using examples from his time at Facebook. He contrasts the metrics-driven approach with a more human-centric perspective, advocating for a focus on how products foster connections among users.
"this episode is brought to you by dovetail the customer insights platform for teams that gets you from data to insights fast no matter the method there's so much customer data to get through from user..."
Operationalizing Feelings in Product Development
In this segment, Josh addresses the challenge of balancing emotional optimization with business goals. He shares how The Browser Company implements their philosophy in practice, ensuring that while they prioritize feelings, they also maintain accountability through measurable goals.
"today for free that's dovetailapp.com Lenny Josh welcome to the podcast thank you so much for having me Lenny it's absolutely my pleasure you are the CEO and co-founder of the browser company which bu..."
Optimizing for Feelings Over Metrics
Josh Miller discusses the importance of focusing on human emotions in product development rather than solely on metrics. He shares insights from his experience at Facebook and contrasts it with The Browser Company's approach, emphasizing that true success lies in making users feel connected and engaged, rather than just tracking numbers.
"thinking about the iPhone or the Macintosh by all means numbers are a fantastic way to be honest with yourself about whether or not you are achieving what you aim to do but at the at the moment of cre..."
The Balance of Feelings and Metrics
In this segment, Josh Miller elaborates on how The Browser Company operationalizes its philosophy of optimizing for feelings while still maintaining accountability through metrics. He explains that the right feelings often align with key performance indicators, creating a balance that drives both emotional engagement and business success.
"as you pointed out I think a lot of people are listening are like I love that I wish I could do that I want to optimize for feelings but then I gotta drive the business forward I got goals to hit I wa..."
Creating Airy and Effortless Features
Josh shares the development process behind the 'Peak' feature at The Browser Company, which aims to provide a seamless user experience. He emphasizes the importance of making interactions feel light and effortless, showcasing how the team collaborates to ensure that new features evoke the desired emotions in users.
"just like optimizing for metrics so purely is deeply flawed in my opinion optimizing for feelings so purely is flawed as well and it depends on what you are doing what the project is and a lot of othe..."
Values That Drive Rapid Shipping
Josh Miller explains how The Browser Company's core values enable them to ship features quickly and effectively. He highlights the significance of hiring passionate individuals and fostering a culture of action and ambition, which collectively contribute to their ability to deliver meaningful updates to users consistently.
"segue to a question I wanted to touch on so I asked uh Scott belski what I should ask you he's a big fan of yours I don't know if he's an investor but he's just like I love Josh and asked him what sho..."
Crafting Unique Company Values
In this segment, Josh discusses the unconventional approach The Browser Company took to define its values. Instead of traditional corporate values, they created a narrative around road trips that reflects their culture and ethos, emphasizing the organic development of these values through team feedback and collaboration.
"that has a lot of heart has a lot of intrinsic motivation and a it's the first day of my career I wonder what's gonna happen attitude and I think all of those things add up to a culture which is let's..."
The Process of Defining Values
Josh shares insights into the lengthy process of defining The Browser Company's values, which involved interviewing team members to gather their thoughts and experiences. He reflects on the collaborative nature of this effort and how it ultimately led to a deeper understanding of the company's identity and mission.
"that's awesome I have the page here and it's quite beautiful and uh we'll link to it in the show notes just like very briefly and tactically they just sit down and start writing this thing and then pe..."
Attracting Top Talent
In this segment, Josh shares insights on how The Browser Company attracts exceptional talent, including industry veterans who have worked on transformative projects. He highlights the intentionality behind their hiring process, focusing on creating an environment where the best minds want to collaborate. Josh reflects on the aspirations of new hires and how the company's mission resonates with them, making it an appealing place to work.
"this was not CEO in a corner writing a missive this was a team effort there's a woman Abby on our team that did did so much work on this project the words themselves came from our team so it has my na..."
Building a Dream Team
Josh Miller elaborates on the vision behind The Browser Company, emphasizing that the product is not just the web browser Arc, but the team itself. He discusses the importance of hiring individuals who are not only talented but also share the company's values and aspirations. This segment highlights the unique culture at The Browser Company, where the focus is on collaboration and creating a fulfilling work environment.
"a lot of ideas that get us really excited there are a lot of shapes and sizes but as we you know we're kind of nostalgic for looking back on the decade prior it was groups of people and moments in tim..."
Celebrating Contributions
In this segment, Josh explains how The Browser Company fosters a culture of recognition and celebration. He shares how they publicly acknowledge new hires and the contributions of team members, reinforcing a sense of belonging and appreciation. This approach not only motivates employees but also attracts top talent who value a supportive and collaborative work environment.
"values and let's go find people that resonate with that and that trickles down to everything we do whether it's our policy about this or the way we do that I'll give you one example our goal of interv..."
The Power of Mission
Josh discusses the significance of having a meaningful mission at The Browser Company. He reflects on how a compelling vision can attract talented individuals who are eager to contribute to something impactful. This segment emphasizes the role of shared aspirations in building a cohesive team and driving innovation within the company.
"that's coming from people that have done really remarkable things by all accounts and I think more than anything we've realized that in order for people like that to join and to show up that there are..."
Transparency in Action
Josh Miller shares insights into The Browser Company's commitment to transparency, including their practice of sharing internal meetings and processes with the public. He discusses the benefits and potential pitfalls of this approach, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and trust in rebuilding faith in tech companies. This segment highlights how transparency can foster a deeper connection with both employees and users.
"think just at some point that Tumbleweed is I think a big part of it is like once you get amazing people more amazing people want to join so I think that's very much uh helpful something else this res..."
Building Trust Through Transparency
Josh Miller discusses the importance of radical transparency at The Browser Company, emphasizing how building in public can help restore trust in tech companies. He reflects on the cultural shift that has led to a loss of trust and how sharing their processes and intentions can foster a deeper connection with users, ultimately aiming to rebuild that trust.
"gravitational pull for the CEO and the founders to be at the center of that and so sometimes I even this morning we had our best performing YouTube video ever the first one that really kind of broke o..."
Rediscovering Idealism in Tech
In this segment, Josh shares his vision of The Browser Company as a group of idealists and optimists seeking to rediscover the joy and potential of technology. He reflects on the hopefulness he felt as a teenager using the internet and how that drives their mission to create better products that resonate with users' feelings.
"intentions are are pure and Earnest which are I and we another thing that defines people to join the browser company in addition to wanting to do the work that defines their careers is I would charact..."
The Challenge of Trust in Tech
Josh elaborates on the challenges of trust in the tech industry, discussing how past experiences have led to skepticism towards tech companies. He emphasizes the need for transparency and personal connection to regain users' trust, highlighting the importance of understanding the human element behind technology.
"and as part of that I would view Arc in the browser company as an experiment in can we can do it better is possible and as we were thinking about better as possible you know rediscovering what we love..."
Radical Trust Building
This segment focuses on Josh's approach to building radical trust through transparency. He discusses the importance of sharing imperfections and fostering a genuine relationship with users, aiming to create a sense of community and understanding that can lead to better user experiences.
"why should anyone trust us we have your most sensitive personal data we have your most sensitive professional data why should you trust us if we have had our trust broken again and again and I think o..."
The Role of Storytelling in Trust
Josh highlights the significance of storytelling in building trust with users. He reflects on how personal connections and narratives can enhance the perception of a brand, making it essential for The Browser Company to communicate its values and intentions effectively.
"that's better and if not you know I'll say someone tweeted something yesterday um who apparently we didn't earn the trust yet and they haven't gotten to know us and their interpretation of what we wer..."
Creating a Human Connection
In this segment, Josh discusses the importance of creating a human connection through their content and interactions. He shares his thoughts on how personal experiences and genuine communication can help bridge the gap between tech companies and their users, fostering a sense of trust and community.
"but that's the intentionality behind it that is a really interesting Insight it makes a lot of sense for a browser to find that so important to build that trust I haven't done podcast interviews I hav..."
The Power of Community in Tech
Josh reflects on the role of community in technology, discussing how building a supportive environment can enhance user experiences. He emphasizes the need for collaboration and shared learning, which can lead to more meaningful interactions and a stronger connection with users.
"ways this podcast at a mental level of inspiration for it I feel the same way in Reverse you made this point about being worried about being like two front and center for your company I have the same ..."
Innovative Team Structures
Josh introduces the unique team structures at The Browser Company, including the membership and storytelling teams. He explains how these teams focus on building deep relationships with users and telling the company's story, which sets them apart from traditional startup practices.
"don't one of the other things that hopefully you're picking up in this interview so far is we are a very prototype driven culture you know it goes back to the assume you don't know ethos we try a lot ..."
Holistic User Relationships
In this segment, Josh discusses the importance of holistic relationships with users, emphasizing that every interaction matters. He shares how The Browser Company aims to understand users deeply from their first touchpoint, ensuring that their needs are met throughout their journey with the product.
"the most impressive thing to me about how Facebook built product was their user research to you shout out to Loey and Jane I don't know why you'd be listening to this podcast but you deeply inspired m..."
The Intentionality Behind Teams
Josh elaborates on the intentionality behind the formation of teams at The Browser Company. He explains how they prioritize understanding user needs and experiences, leading to innovative approaches in product development and storytelling that resonate with their audience.
"and think about it holistically and so that's the membership team on the storytelling side very similar different type of person again we're a humanistic company so the theme Here is the people on the..."
Embracing Multi-Disciplinary Talent
Josh discusses the value of hiring multi-disciplinary talent at The Browser Company. He shares how individuals with diverse backgrounds contribute to various roles, enhancing creativity and innovation within the team, and how this approach aligns with their mission to create impactful products.
"their incentives what are the disciplines on the team uh you know even hiring a video editor for example is a small company but the video editor not having just like make a tick tock account go viral ..."
The Future of Product Management
In this segment, Josh addresses the future of product management at The Browser Company. He explains their unique approach to PM roles, emphasizing flexibility and adaptability based on project needs, and how this strategy fosters a more dynamic and responsive product development environment.
"via PM again as you can imagine as is going through the heads of ever and listening that must break down in 18 ways oh it definitely does and so you know I'm not promising one day it won't change but ..."
Rethinking Product Management
Josh Miller discusses The Browser Company's unconventional approach to product management, emphasizing that they do not have traditional PM roles. Instead, they hire multi-disciplinary individuals who can adapt to project needs, showcasing a culture that values flexibility and creativity over rigid titles. He shares an example of a team member, Rebecca, who embodies this philosophy, blending data science and software engineering to contribute effectively to product development.
"you think you'll hire PMS in the future you know having a PM background do you think you'll get there or do you think you'll try to stick to this people do the PM roll depending on the project yeah we..."
The Evolution of Roles
In this segment, Josh reflects on the evolution of roles within tech companies, particularly the transition from flexible roles to more defined positions like PMs. He shares insights on how individuals often find themselves overwhelmed by PM responsibilities, leading to a desire for dedicated PMs to streamline processes. Josh emphasizes the importance of hiring individuals who are passionate about making things, regardless of their official titles.
"and sometimes they may play the verbs of a PM and sometimes it may be something else this can be a really interesting story to follow I've seen this journey a few times at different companies what I f..."
Data vs. Feelings in Product Development
Josh explores the balance between data-driven decision-making and optimizing for user feelings at The Browser Company. He highlights the importance of having team members who are both data-oriented and humanistic, ensuring that the emotional aspect of product development is not overlooked. This dual focus aims to create products that resonate deeply with users while still being informed by data.
"experience I remember uh getting to know Evan from Snapchat just a little enough to know how he's talked about PMS and it was we're never going to hire PMS it's that everyone's a designer and you know..."
The Storytelling Team's Unique Composition
In this segment, Josh introduces the storytelling team at The Browser Company, detailing the diverse backgrounds of its members. He emphasizes the importance of hiring individuals with varied experiences and perspectives to foster creativity and innovation. Josh shares anecdotes about team members, illustrating how their unique journeys contribute to the team's success in crafting compelling narratives.
"and of course even that could be wrong and maybe in a year you know we gave it you know I got it totally wrong we got it totally wrong so we'll see but I I would also admit that of all the things I sh..."
Inspiration from Airbnb's Storytelling
Josh draws parallels between The Browser Company's storytelling team and Airbnb's approach to marketing. He reflects on his early experiences at Airbnb, where he was inspired by their creative processes and emphasis on storytelling. Josh discusses how these influences shape their current practices and the importance of creating memorable user experiences through effective storytelling.
"design team is there all over the place in terms of who they are what they've done their sensibilities their aspirations and all whether it's the storytelling team or the design team that can be hard ..."
Lessons from General Magic
Josh shares insights from the documentary 'General Magic,' which chronicles a pioneering tech company that ultimately failed. He reflects on the pride and nostalgia of its team members, emphasizing the value of passion and creativity over traditional success metrics. This discussion highlights the importance of building a culture that fosters innovation and resilience, regardless of immediate outcomes.
"and companies that we've been fortunate to see and now the trickling is happening from your your lessons and experience and your unique approach I hope there's a documentary that I highly recommend uh..."
The Power of Naming in Innovation
In this closing segment, Josh discusses the significance of naming within The Browser Company, suggesting that unique names for teams and projects can encourage innovative thinking. He argues that avoiding preconceived notions associated with traditional titles allows for a more creative exploration of roles and responsibilities. This approach reflects their commitment to first principles thinking and continuous experimentation.
"yeah what's cool is you're getting a lot of footage that will be very useful for a future documentary on the history of the browser I didn't think about it like that for better or worse one last thoug..."
Building Amazing Product Experiences
In this segment, Josh shares insights on the emerging trend of companies focused on creating exceptional product experiences rather than solely driving metrics or revenue. He highlights The Browser Company’s commitment to user experience and emotional connection, positioning it alongside other innovative companies like Linear and Raycast. Josh emphasizes that prioritizing user experience is not just a strategy but essential for growth in the competitive landscape of consumer software.
"and it's very undoable like you're gonna do it you know it was like it's exactly it's a two-way door and uh I like the the just the vision the value you have just prototyping things and whatever it di..."
The Emotional Connection in Browsers
Josh elaborates on the unique attributes of web browsers as consumer software, emphasizing their universal appeal and the need for emotional connections. He explains how the browser market is a commodity, where differentiation comes from how much users love the product. This segment underscores the importance of creating delightful experiences to win over users in a market filled with interchangeable options.
"and one of the things I learned is different ideas product ideas business ideas company ideas come with different attributes and things that will matter to their success and so when thinking about sta..."
Crafting the Future of Computing
Josh discusses the vision for The Browser Company and its product Arc, positioning it as an 'internet computer' that transcends traditional web browsing. He reflects on the shift to cloud computing and how it will redefine user interactions with technology. This segment highlights the ambition to create a platform that integrates seamlessly into users' lives, much like the iPhone did for mobile phones.
"so that attributes of those business of that business and that product category mean you have to win on how much do people love your product and feel an emotional connection to it and choose your bran..."
The Internet Computer: A New Paradigm
In this concluding segment, Josh outlines the long-term vision for Arc as a development platform that will revolutionize how users interact with the internet. He emphasizes the importance of building tools that are accessible and transformative, akin to the evolution of mobile technology. Josh's insights provide a forward-looking perspective on the future of computing and the role of The Browser Company in shaping that future.
"that for Consumer software especially and for commoditized Consumer software specially experience as a differentiator you need some reason to give people or you need to give people a reason to even tr..."
The Challenge of Native Software
Josh Miller delves into the challenges faced by web applications compared to native software, discussing how major companies like Apple and Google have incentives to maintain the status quo. He explains how these companies' business models hinder the development of immersive web experiences. This segment emphasizes the need for better interfaces to the internet that can enhance web applications and make them as compelling as native software.
"the best Frameworks can win and so in many ways if you were to say hey in this future we want to see what is the platform that we want to do we should be developing on top of what has the best attribu..."
The Vision for Arc and Internet Computers
Josh shares his vision for Arc as a potential leader in the development of internet computers, emphasizing the importance of creating robust interfaces for web applications. He discusses the future of development platforms on the web and the opportunities that lie ahead. This segment encapsulates the ambitious goals of The Browser Company in shaping the next generation of computing.
"a browser than more of a computer and if we do that then the most interesting opportunity on top of that is actually the develop the things other people were built on top of this development platform ..."
Transitioning to the Lightning Round
As the conversation shifts to a lightning round, Josh reflects on the insights shared throughout the episode. He prepares to answer rapid-fire questions, showcasing his thoughts on books, movies, and interview techniques. This segment serves as a light-hearted transition while maintaining the engaging tone of the discussion.
"question was going to be how do you make money with a browser which uh people give for free really well and now it makes a lot more sense where you all are going and so with that we have reached our v..."
Lightning Round Insights
In this engaging lightning round, Josh shares his favorite books, recent impactful TV shows, and his unique interview approach. He emphasizes authenticity as a key trait he looks for in candidates and discusses the tools his company loves, including Tuple and Notion. This segment provides a personal glimpse into Josh's preferences and insights, rounding out the conversation with practical advice.
"our very exciting lightning round I've got six questions for you are you ready ready okay that's already uh what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people Harold on the Purple Cra..."