All Segments
Cory Doctorow and Joe Betts-Lacroix on Adversarial Interoperability
46 segments available
Cory Doctorow is a blogger, journalist, and science fiction author. He’s also the co-editor of Boing Boing. https://twitter.com/doctorow https://boingboing.net/ Joe Betts-Lacroix is the CTO of VIUM and an Expert at YC. https://twitter.com/bettslacroix https://www.vium.com/ Y Combinator invests a small amount of money ($150k) in a large number of startups (recently 200), twice a year. Learn more about YC and apply for funding here: https://www.ycombinator.com/apply/ Topics 00:07 - Adversarial interoperability 7:30 - So what should founders do? 13:30 - Copyright 19:30 - Remixing 26:35 - AT&T 29:25 - Firms and state-like duties 31:00 - Medium-term suggestions for founders 39:00 - Conspiracy theories 51:25 - Science fiction and predictions 56:30 - Peak indifference model
Segments Timeline
Welcome to the Podcast
Cory Doctorow and Joe Betts-Lacroix introduce the podcast, setting the stage for a discussion on adversarial interoperability, a concept that could reshape how founders think about technology and competition.
"alright guys welcome to the podcast excellent thank you so today we have Cory Doctorow and Joe Betts lacroix Joe could you start it off sure so Cory when I saw your talk at"
Understanding Adversarial Interoperability
Joe Betts-Lacroix asks Cory Doctorow to explain adversarial interoperability, contrasting it with traditional interoperability. Doctorow emphasizes its significance in tech history and how it allows new companies to challenge established ones.
"sure so Cory when I saw your talk at Burning Man it was last time and I heard you mentioned adversarial interoperability my my sort of nerd buzzer went off and I thought wow this is gonna be a really ..."
The Importance of Adversarial Interoperability
Doctorow elaborates on the concept of adversarial interoperability, detailing how it enables new entrants to compete against dominant firms by creating products that integrate without permission, thus attracting customers from established companies.
"are familiar with the idea of interoperability per se you know one thing plugs into another thing and we've all encountered a kind of indifferent interoperability where you know people who make your f..."
Historical Examples of Interoperability
Cory Doctorow shares historical examples of adversarial interoperability, including the development of Samba, which allowed non-Microsoft systems to connect to Microsoft networks, and Apple's iWork suite that challenged Microsoft's dominance in office software.
"really important to the history of tech which is adversarial interoperability and that's when I plug something into something you made without your permission even if you don't like it and maybe espec..."
Legal Challenges in Adversarial Interoperability
Doctorow discusses the legal landscape surrounding adversarial interoperability, highlighting how current laws and regulations create barriers for startups attempting to innovate and compete against established firms.
"UNIX it really sold the hell of a lot of Microsoft systems and so very slowly but surely everything that wasn't on Microsoft OS was being squeezed out of the office land and this Australian grad stude..."
The Evolution of Legal Barriers
Cory Doctorow explains how legal tools have evolved to protect dominant firms, making it increasingly difficult for new companies to engage in adversarial interoperability without facing significant legal repercussions.
"in the mid-2000s when Microsoft dominance of the office market of the office suite market was really threatening Mac's ability to collaborate within those environments the their Microsoft's versions f..."
The Role of Startups in Challenging Dominance
Joe Betts-Lacroix and Cory Doctorow discuss the role of startups, particularly those funded by Y Combinator, in challenging established companies through innovative approaches, including adversarial interoperability.
"field software patents were rare and thin the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act which is this 1986 anti hacking law that Ronald Reagan signed into law in a panic after he watched Matthew Broderick and warg..."
The Hacker Ethos
Betts-Lacroix emphasizes the hacker ethos within Y Combinator, suggesting that startups can still innovate and disrupt markets despite the legal challenges posed by larger firms.
"iOS and also to support the iOS API under Android you would find yourself running up against software patents Digital Millennium Copyright Act claims for circumvention you'd find yourself running up a..."
Case Study: Mint and Adversarial Interoperability
Cory Doctorow shares the story of Aaron Patzer's Mint, a startup that successfully utilized adversarial interoperability by scraping data from banks, illustrating how such tactics can lead to significant market disruption.
"well we have YC the this group of the little people who are striking out and wanting to create these these huge companies rather than letting the big companies do everything and one of our flagship pu..."
Navigating Legal Risks as a Startup
The discussion turns to the legal risks faced by startups that employ adversarial interoperability tactics, with Doctorow suggesting that founders may need to sell early to avoid legal battles.
"got sold for you know gazillions of dollars by one of those giants for financial corporations which is now and one of these monopolies that is trying to keep other people from doing similar things he ..."
The Unsustainable Nature of Current Legal Frameworks
Cory Doctorow argues that the current legal frameworks protecting dominant firms are unsustainable, predicting a crisis as these platforms fail to address user needs and societal issues.
"you know we you see it in the rhetoric of the big platforms when they describe their own failings they say well what do you expect from us were giant right so Zuckerberg so called free speech talk thi..."
Four Forces Regulating the Digital World
Doctorow introduces Lawrence Lessig's four forces that regulate the digital world: code, markets, law, and norms, explaining how they interact to shape the landscape of technology and innovation.
"peripheries like women who are harassed by terrible men or whatever is intimidating and promotes inequality and makes people's lives miserable to these platforms and their inability to address these c..."
The Role of Norms in Business Practices
The conversation shifts to the importance of social norms in shaping business practices, with Doctorow discussing how societal acceptance can influence the success of startups engaging in adversarial interoperability.
"life's work not just to pursue the terrible acts that he pursued with vulnerable young women but also to do so while not being socially unacceptable his whole goal in life was to be in company of wond..."
Navigating Copyright as a Creator
Cory Doctorow reflects on his experiences as a successful science fiction author, discussing how copyright impacts creators and the challenges of applying industrial rules to non-industrial contexts.
"chaotic when it arrives right a change that occurs without any kind of market constituency where that it's just it's purely normative generally involves like guillotines right firms when their interes..."
The Challenges of Copyright in a Changing Landscape
Doctorow critiques the current copyright framework, arguing that it fails to adapt to the realities of modern content creation and distribution, which complicates the landscape for creators.
"involved in this kind of firm and you know the big big upsides are not creating another face book because there won't another Facebook the big big upside is creating the thing that happens once Facebo..."
Navigating Copyright in the Digital Age
Doctorow critiques the application of copyright law to everyday interactions and creative expressions outside the entertainment industry. He argues that the current framework creates confusion and risks for individuals who are not part of the industry, highlighting the need for reform that allows for free expression without the burden of complex legalities.
"copyright the test that we use to find out whether or not you were in the entertainment industry is whether you were making or handling a copy of a work that involved creative labor and that made sens..."
Fair Use and Cultural Remixing
In this segment, Doctorow explores the concept of fair use, particularly in the context of cultural remixing. He cites the example of 'The Wind Done Gone,' an unauthorized sequel to 'Gone with the Wind,' to illustrate how transformative works can challenge existing copyright norms. He advocates for a balance between protecting creators and allowing for artistic expression.
"live in Burbank California I can walk from my house to Universal Warner and Disney and there's a very good Harry Potter theme park at Universal Studios that was made by licensing a bunch of IP from Wa..."
Evolving Fair Use in Technology
Doctorow discusses the evolving nature of fair use as technology advances, particularly with the rise of deep fakes and other digitally manipulated content. He emphasizes the need for a legal framework that adapts to new forms of creativity while protecting artists' rights, suggesting that judges and lawmakers should work together to establish clear guidelines.
"is great I think we could combine the European fair dealing approach where they have enumerated exceptions with the American for use approach where they have principles that are applied to get a kind ..."
The Threat of Monopolistic Control
In this concluding segment, Doctorow warns about the dangers of monopolistic practices in the tech industry, drawing parallels to historical monopolies like the Bell System. He argues that companies like Facebook and Google are positioning themselves as state-like entities, seeking regulatory frameworks that solidify their control rather than promote competition and innovation.
"then it's not relevant I mean you know I alluded before to what happened when the phonograms yeah broadcasters it actually goes before the phonograms the photographs exist because they successfully fo..."
State-Like Duties of Tech Firms
Doctorow elaborates on the implications of assigning state-like duties to large tech firms. He warns that this creates a scenario where breaking them up becomes nearly impossible, as they are seen as essential for performing these duties. He emphasizes the need for a critical examination of how these companies are regulated and the risks of allowing them to grow unchecked.
"and you know Facebook is positioning itself to become a state monopoly like the bail system was as is Google as is Apple right all of these companies they want to be when they say please regulate us r..."
The Challenge of Regulation
In this segment, Doctorow discusses the complexities of regulating big tech companies. He highlights the challenges faced by lawmakers who often lack a deep understanding of the scale and operations of these firms. He argues that effective regulation must go beyond mere oversight and consider breaking up monopolies to foster competition and innovation.
"be likely enshrined or enabled as you say by these bastions of legitimacy in the country which is people who fight the crime and keep us safe and they're recruiting constituents right to their to thei..."
Disrupting Facebook's Hold
Doctorow presents a provocative idea about disrupting Facebook's dominance by creating tools that allow users to interact with the platform without being subjected to its surveillance. He suggests that by offering alternatives that prioritize user privacy and data security, new startups can capture segments of Facebook's user base, particularly those seeking safer online spaces.
"in the medium term for founders like strategically how would you advise someone so nobody knows when these anti these these anti adversarial interoperability laws can be invoked because the jurisprude..."
The Risks of Facebook's Data Practices
This segment focuses on the risks associated with Facebook's handling of sensitive user data. Doctorow shares a real-world example of a user who discovered vulnerabilities in Facebook's group management, highlighting the potential dangers of sharing personal information on the platform. He advocates for the development of alternative platforms that prioritize user control and privacy.
"know Facebook if you believe that they have 2.3 billion users which may or may not be true if they're you have 2.3 billion users they have to support twenty three hundred one in a million use cases ev..."
The All-or-Nothing Dilemma
Doctorow discusses the dilemma faced by users who feel compelled to remain on Facebook for support and community, despite the platform's invasive data practices. He argues that this creates a collective action problem, where users are trapped in a system that exploits their need for connection while compromising their privacy.
"risky yeah right so imagine that this person who's you know currently suing Facebook over this imagine if they could have a Facebook alike that we didn't rely on everybody who used that group deciding..."
The Myth of Mind Control
In this segment, Doctorow critiques the notion that social media platforms like Facebook can control users' thoughts and behaviors. He argues that while these platforms can influence behavior, the idea of mind control is exaggerated. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the limitations of social media algorithms and the need for critical thinking in the digital age.
"you know what Facebook is good for and you know this kind of dovetails on to another important topic I think which is whether or not Facebook is a persuasion engine what what Facebook is mostly good a..."
Conspiracy Theories and Vulnerability
Doctorow explores the rise of conspiratorial thinking in society, linking it to the prevalence of actual conspiracies and misinformation. He discusses how the current media landscape can create confusion and distrust, making individuals more susceptible to conspiracy theories. This segment highlights the need for media literacy and critical engagement with information.
"doing was finding racists and convincing them that Trump was someone to vote for right not finding normal people and convincing them to be racist so what do you say about YouTube then because YouTube ..."
Conspiracies and Market Concentration
Doctorow explains how market concentration leads to a rise in conspiratorial thinking. He illustrates this with examples from the tech industry and regulatory capture, emphasizing how the lack of competition can create environments ripe for conspiracy theories to flourish.
"one you're in and so when you're in one of those groups and someone says I actually think the journey is on provocateur you're like maybe they're in a Jean provocateur right because we know that these..."
The Crisis of Truth-Seeking
In this segment, Doctorow addresses the crisis of truth-seeking in contemporary society. He critiques the erosion of trust in regulatory processes and expert bodies, highlighting how this has led to a reliance on individual interpretations of truth rather than collective, evidence-based conclusions.
"right so that rise in conspiracies that we're experiencing now where there are there's tons of industry collusion with regulators there's lots of regulatory capture industries converge on sets of poli..."
Conspiracies as a Function of Corruption
Doctorow discusses how corruption within industries and regulatory bodies contributes to the rise of conspiracy theories. He provides examples of how companies manipulate regulations to serve their interests, leading to public distrust and a belief in conspiracies.
"a legislative prohibition on non-competes it's why we have Silicon Valley you know Silicon Valley was founded by a Nobel Prize winner who later went crazy right the guy who figured out how to make tra..."
The Role of Individual Beliefs in Conspiracy Theories
This segment delves into how individual beliefs and experiences shape perceptions of conspiracy theories. Doctorow examines the psychological aspects of belief in conspiracies, particularly how real conspiracies can lend credibility to unfounded theories.
"thinking is part of a an epistemological crisis right a crisis and how we know whether something is true because you know it is hacker ishes as anything to go okay well I'm gonna find out what's true ..."
The Impact of Market Concentration on Credibility
Doctorow highlights the impact of market concentration on the credibility of information sources. He argues that as industries consolidate, the public's ability to discern truth diminishes, leading to a reliance on charismatic figures who claim to reveal hidden truths.
"its its lobbying arm just intervened in a regulatory process in West Virginia that was asking the question should we relax than the standards for how much chemical waste can go into drinking water and..."
Conspiracy Theories and the Erosion of Trust
In this segment, Doctorow discusses how the proliferation of conspiracy theories correlates with the erosion of trust in institutions. He emphasizes the need for transparency and accountability in order to rebuild public confidence in the systems that govern society.
"joist in your roof were sufficient to keep it from falling on your head and you don't know whether the tailpipe emissions from your diesel are gonna poison you and your family and you don't know wheth..."
The Changing Landscape of Conspiracy Theories
Doctorow reflects on the evolution of conspiracy theories over time, noting how they have adapted to new communication methods. He discusses the resurgence of certain theories, such as the Flat Earth movement, and the implications for public discourse.
"saw a recent study academic study about conspiracy theories and because people have been saying wow there's so many more conspiracy theories now and they used a method for analyzing that which is hard..."
Conspiracy Theories in the Age of Information
In this concluding segment, Doctorow examines the paradox of conspiracy theories in an age where information is more accessible than ever. He argues that despite the availability of evidence, the belief in conspiracies persists, driven by deeper societal issues.
"although I don't have an empirical basis for asserting it it certainly seems qualitatively like the bit like the belief in the Flat Earth is more central than it was yeah 10 years ago now in on its fa..."
Science Fiction's Role in Shaping the Future
In this segment, Doctorow reflects on the role of science fiction in predicting and shaping future realities. He discusses how speculative fiction can inspire innovation and creativity, emphasizing that while it may not predict the future, it can influence it. The conversation touches on the near-future themes prevalent in contemporary science fiction and their relevance to current technological advancements.
"corruption is right is it's when it's when true seeking exercises are suborned by parochial interests around them regulated in the public interest we regulate in a parochial interest so we have yet to..."
The Near Future of Technology
Doctorow shares insights on the trend of near-future narratives in science fiction, contrasting it with past works that envisioned distant futures. He discusses how contemporary authors are addressing current issues and technological advancements, making their works more relevant. This segment highlights the importance of near-future storytelling in understanding and navigating today's challenges.
"and that in the past it seems like the things that came out of of those novels took ten years to happen you know whereas now it feels like it feels like they're all becoming closer turn well you know ..."
Hope and Fear in Science Fiction
Cory Doctorow articulates the dual role of science fiction as a reflection of societal hopes and fears regarding technology. He argues that science fiction provides insight into what people desire and dread about technological progress, influencing the direction of innovation. This segment emphasizes the importance of understanding these narratives for founders and creators in the tech industry.
"trend you think because the works changing faster or I've always been pretty near future and the work that I've written I it's not all of it but but you know in the main thrust of my work is very near..."
The Menu of Future Possibilities
Doctorow encourages founders to view science fiction as a source of inspiration for future innovations. He discusses how engaging with diverse speculative ideas can lead to more creative and impactful startup concepts. This segment underscores the value of imagination and creativity in entrepreneurship, particularly within the context of the Y Combinator community.
"about the way technology is interacting with human civilization and that when you find a science fiction book that is doing well in the world you find out what the world hopes and fears about technolo..."
Climate Change and Indifference
In this segment, Doctorow introduces his 'peak indifference model,' explaining how societal indifference to long-term problems like climate change can lead to catastrophic consequences. He discusses the importance of recognizing and addressing these issues before they escalate, emphasizing the need for proactive solutions rather than reactive measures.
"and fun so I think that in terms of like what I see in the kind of near to mid term so first of all we are at a tipping point for our understanding of the climate risk mmm I have a model I call the th..."
The Dangers of Nihilism
Doctorow warns against the dangers of nihilism in the face of climate change and societal challenges. He discusses the importance of fostering hope and action rather than succumbing to despair. This segment explores the potential for positive change and the role of individuals and communities in shaping a better future.
"then they need to be convinced that there's a potential for a solution right that denialism can slide into nihilism very quickly absolutely if I spend 30 years unsuccessfully convincing that we need t..."
Community Resilience in Crisis
Cory Doctorow shares insights on how communities often come together during crises, countering the narrative of dystopian breakdown. He references historical examples of solidarity and mutual support during disasters, emphasizing the potential for resilience and cooperation in the face of adversity. This segment highlights the importance of community in overcoming challenges and building a better future.
"sea from in the first place and you know this idea of I want to return to the idea of science fiction here people tend to mistake science fiction which a lot of things have gone wrong all at once for ..."
The Shift in Trust Towards Big Firms
Doctorow discusses the changing public sentiment regarding trust in large firms and their regulatory processes. He suggests that as this trust diminishes, there will be opportunities for new ventures that disrupt established platforms, aligning with public interest.
"mark cents right that we we are very soon to be in the market for graceful recovery not for luxury bunkers where you can wet the bed and wait for you know better people than you to rebuild civilizatio..."
Legal Precedents in Adversarial Interoperability
This segment covers the legal challenges faced by companies attempting to disrupt monopolistic platforms. Doctorow highlights the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and its implications for scraping data, referencing significant court cases that have shaped the landscape of adversarial interoperability.
"and so if you want to be where the puck is gonna be betting that when you do something that disrupts the big platforms that public sentiment and therefore lawmakers will be on your side is a good bet ..."
Opportunities for Founders in Scraping
Doctorow encourages founders to explore opportunities in scraping data from large platforms, citing recent legal decisions that favor such actions. He emphasizes the potential for building businesses that challenge monopolies while fostering a better public understanding of scraping as a legitimate practice.
"it's it first of all I think of it if there was a circus blood it went to the Supreme Court they would lose but we should have we should have legislative clarity on this that you know you cannot creat..."
The Hacker Spirit and Community Innovation
In this segment, Doctorow reflects on the hacker spirit prevalent in the YC community and its role in fostering innovation. He shares anecdotes about how technological advancements often arise from community-driven efforts to disrupt incumbents, reinforcing the importance of collaboration.
"scrape you right because their this is a pro-competitive public interest base where was this 79th Circuit here really yeah so who have thought it right so the Ninth Circuit's really interesting becaus..."
Finding Cory Doctorow Online
As the conversation wraps up, Doctorow shares where to find his work and connect with him online. He mentions his personal website, podcast, and contributions to Boing Boing, making it easy for interested listeners to engage with his content.
"don't know Dec it's great I mean literally I have been to the Googleplex when it was silicon graph yes I've been to it when it when it's the Googleplex I will happily visit it again when one of our hi..."