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Mike Knoop on Product and Design Processes for Remote Teams with Kevin Hale
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Mike Knoop is cofounder and Chief Product Officer at Zapier, which was in the YC Summer 2012 batch. Zapier moves information between your web apps automatically. https://twitter.com/mikeknoop https://zapier.com Kevin Hale is a Visiting Partner at YC. Before YC Kevin was the cofounder of Wufoo, which was funded by YC in 2006 and acquired by SurveyMonkey in 2011. https://twitter.com/ilikevests The YC podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon. https://twitter.com/craigcannon *** Topics 00:10 - Kevin's intro 00:30 - Mike's intro 1:30 - How Mike and Kevin met 3:30 - Market sizing for consumer software 4:40 - Zapier's growth strategy today vs 2012 5:55 - Jumpstarting a platform like Zapier 8:30 - Building an app directory before building a product 10:30 - Applying to YC twice 12:50 - Zapier after Demo Day 14:15 - Zapier's first remote hire 16:15 - Remote companies not being perceived as legitimate 18:15 - Noticing remote was working then committing 20:55 - Qualities to look for when hiring remote employees 23:55 - Nina Mehta asks - What’s the best way to share work and knowledge across designers working on different parts of product without distracting from focused working time? 25:25 - Remote mistakes in the early days 27:00 - When to change modes of communication to allow for deep work 28:55 - When to ask for someone's full attention 31:00 - Product and design practices at Zapier 34:05 - OKRs for teams vs individuals 39:15 - Tools for remote teams 43:15 - No internal email at Zapier 46:20 - Keeping morale high in a remote team 48:45 - What happens at a Zapier retreat 51:10 - Remote design critiques 56:10 - Serendipity and over optimizing for it 58:00 - Setting up a remote company for success
Segments Timeline
Welcome to the Podcast
Kevin Hale introduces himself as a partner at Y Combinator and shares his background as the co-founder of Wufoo, a remote company from its inception. He sets the stage for a discussion on remote work and its relevance today.
"hey guys welcome to the podcast how's it going great cool Kevin welcome back for people who don't know you what do you do I'm a partner at Y Combinator I founded a company called wufu back in 2006 I w..."
Meet Mike Knoop
Mike Knoop, co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Zapier, introduces himself and explains how his background as a front-end engineer and product designer informs his leadership in design at Zapier. He highlights Zapier's role in automating tasks across web applications.
"odds all right Mike so what do you do yeah I'm like um I am a co-founder of zapier and we're chief product officer and I originally started out as a front-end engineer and a product designer so have a..."
How They Met
Mike recounts how he and Kevin met during their time at Y Combinator, discussing the insights Kevin shared about remote work and the importance of integrations in building a successful product.
"you use multiple tools for your job and you're trying to like you manual or copying and pasting data from one tool the other all day as part of like a task you do you can use zapier to automate that a..."
The Vision for Zapier
Mike discusses the early vision for Zapier, emphasizing the importance of form software and how it fits into the lifecycle of businesses transitioning online. He outlines the three stages companies go through in utilizing software tools.
"to the place that you guys were working when you guys were doing YC and we just like talked for a couple hours but it was really interesting conversation basically I told you is like this is what we d..."
Understanding Market Size
Mike reflects on the challenges of defining the total addressable market (TAM) for Zapier, highlighting the vast potential of their software in a rapidly growing SaaS landscape.
"what they were doing was like turning that into an actual business and so like a lot of my insights were like this is what works for us it's like really powerful and I totally get why every other comp..."
The Growth of Zapier
Mike shares how Zapier's growth strategy has evolved since its inception, focusing on the necessity of building an open platform to accommodate a growing number of integrations and user needs.
"like you start off with like I need like a presence it's like how do I get my stuff out there and so use like website builders like my default to become really big we didn't realize this when we start..."
Building the App Directory
Mike explains the importance of creating an app directory before launching Zapier, which helped gauge market demand and inform their product development strategy.
"stages of every company if like oh this is what I need yeah and they have just giant markets I remember early days we foo people have talked to us about like so what's your Tam what's like your total ..."
Early User Engagement
Mike discusses the early days of Zapier, including how they engaged with users to understand their needs and the importance of integrating with various applications to enhance user experience.
"when you're thinking about like a consumer adoption you don't ask Facebook what's your tan right right and for us we when we think about this opportunity certainly when we got started you know our amb..."
The Role of Partners
Mike highlights the value proposition for partners building on Zapier, focusing on retention and the ability to meet customer requests through integrations, which helped drive early adoption.
"entry to creating software is so low and distributing software so low that you get these niche tools and more and more folks are using these niche tools and bring them into the work place so if someth..."
Navigating Early Challenges
Mike reflects on the challenges of being a new platform and how they leveraged customer support and sales to promote Zapier, ultimately leading to increased visibility and user acquisition.
"growing out individual markets right so how do you approach it now that you have you know so many users yeah honestly to date it still is a very horizontal strategy we have mostly focused over the las..."
SEO and Early Marketing
Mike discusses the early marketing strategies for Zapier, including building an app directory and leveraging SEO to attract users before the official product launch.
"made in the earliest we built the first 50 or 60 absent on zapier ourselves bright way tonight just like bootstrap that that engine and when we launched in 2012 we I remember we had live chat I think ..."
Startup Weekend Origins
Mike shares the story of how Zapier originated from a Startup Weekend project, detailing the initial prototype and the collaborative efforts that led to its development.
"do it with three people so we it was almost out of necessity we don't have money to hire we can't build these ourselves so we have to get if figure out a way partners can build those things on zapier ..."
The First Integrations
Mike recounts the first integrations they built for Zapier, including PayPal and Highrise, and how these early use cases helped demonstrate the product's capabilities.
"tell people like hey if you go and do this then you're gonna get benefit like there how did you guys in the early days get people to be like I will program against your thing so that I can be part of ..."
Applying to Y Combinator
Mike discusses the experience of applying to Y Combinator twice, reflecting on the lessons learned from the initial rejection and how it motivated them to improve their product.
"build a platform that has legs and can sustain itself for us in the early days obviously we didn't have I think the thing that we've leaned on really heavily was the value proposition to some of our p..."
Validation and Traction
Mike shares how the second application to Y Combinator was bolstered by early traction and user feedback, highlighting the importance of social proof in their journey.
"retention if they built they integrated with zapier they got access to 50 60 at the time integrations that were maintained and scaled and we're adding more to it and they got a lot for free oh so it a..."
Commitment to Remote Work
Mike explains that at the time of their Y Combinator application, Zapier was still a small team, and they had not yet fully committed to being a remote company.
"actually way for you to do this go there was value of them beyond you know just user acquisition that incentivize in the early days to build ins a beer didn't end up being that like a lot of people on..."
The Journey to YC: From Rejection to Validation
Mike Knoop shares his experience of applying to Y Combinator (YC) twice, detailing the initial rejection and how it fueled their determination. He discusses the importance of customer feedback and traction, highlighting how their prototype evolved into a validated product with paying customers, which ultimately led to their acceptance into YC.
"at you you'd like to know that in your CRM so that you could pay special attention when you're contacting them so it kind of came out of a single use case and we worked backwards from that and so at w..."
Transitioning to Full-Time: The YC Commitment
Mike reflects on the pivotal moment after YC's Demo Day when Zapier transitioned from a side project to a full-time commitment. He discusses the challenges of balancing full-time jobs while developing Zapier and how the YC experience forced them to fully dedicate themselves to the startup.
"committed to being a fully remote company when you went through YC did you even have employees no just the three of us and we hadn't zapier had been I mentioned we've been doing nights and weekends fo..."
The First Remote Hire: An Experiment in Flexibility
In this segment, Mike recounts the decision to hire their first remote employee after realizing the benefits of remote work. He explains the circumstances that led to this decision and how it aligned with their existing remote work practices, setting the stage for Zapier's future growth.
"it after demo day we actually leading up to demo day I remember one of the problems early proms you ran into that summer was all three of us would wake up in the morning and we were all doing in custo..."
Overcoming Perceptions of Legitimacy in Remote Work
Mike discusses the challenges remote companies face in being perceived as legitimate. He shares anecdotes about how even within their own organization, employees sometimes felt the need to justify their remote work setup, highlighting the societal biases against remote work.
"experiment in early days just to think like hey this was working let's see if it can continue to work and did you have any kind of plan or structure or we just like yeah well let's just see what happe..."
The Scrappy Nature of Remote Work
Mike elaborates on the scrappy beginnings of Zapier and how necessity drove their remote work model. He reflects on the early days of the company, emphasizing how their frugal mentality and commitment to remote work became integral to their identity and success.
"did you not get caught into that trap that's things like it has to come from the founders obviously and so is it we believe that it was not oh why is it that you never felt like you needed to have an ..."
Building a Remote Culture: Lessons Learned
In this segment, Mike shares insights on building a remote culture at Zapier. He discusses the importance of autonomy and how their experiences shaped the company's values, emphasizing the need for a supportive environment that fosters independence among remote employees.
"actually a better way to like run the company for us definitely started off with a cost we're like we can't afford an office but later on as things were working we were just like yeah if you have this..."
Hiring for Remote Success: Key Qualities
Mike outlines the qualities he looks for when hiring remote employees, emphasizing the importance of past remote work experience and the ability to take initiative. He discusses how these traits contribute to the effectiveness of remote teams and the overall success of Zapier.
"in it so much there the other reason I think is actually a little bit more tied to like Brian Wade and I how we'd like to work in the early days like I think it goes back to this that nights and weeke..."
Hiring for Remote Success
In this segment, Mike shares insights on what qualities to look for when hiring remote employees. He highlights the significance of past remote work experience and the ability to take initiative, which are essential for thriving in a remote work environment.
"this like what are other major characters that you look for that you know this person is going to be appropriate for a remote work past experience of the remote is good is a pretty good signal because..."
Communication in Remote Teams
Mike explains the challenges of communication in remote teams compared to co-located organizations. He discusses the need for explicit communication processes and the importance of knowing when to escalate communication methods to ensure effective collaboration.
"be able to know how to operate in this organization so so you mentioned this I heard this in another podcast about like overlapping time zones and making sure you don't unblock or block and unblock pe..."
Navigating Communication Bandwidth
This segment focuses on the nuances of communication bandwidth in remote work. Mike outlines the importance of recognizing when to shift from text-based communication to video calls to enhance collaboration and decision-making efficiency.
"coordinating with your coworkers because I can just tap you on the shoulder Kevin and like ask you what you think of my the work I just did where is it a remote team we just have to be so much more ex..."
Effective Decision-Making in Remote Teams
Mike shares strategies for making effective decisions in remote teams, including setting time limits on discussions and encouraging teams to pause and reflect before revisiting topics. He emphasizes the importance of respecting team members' time and fostering efficient communication.
"those are the things that are like written down and share with the company so a good example of one that a lot of folks would be familiar with is like the slack many people are typing message that pop..."
Expectations for Attention in Remote Work
In this segment, Mike discusses the social norms around communication in remote work, including expectations for response times and the importance of proactive engagement. He highlights the need for employees to take initiative and find ways to contribute value even when blocked.
"like this idea that what you're trying to default to is respecting someone else's time and that the only time you you start respect is when you like need to make it really really efficient but then wh..."
Scaling Processes at Zapier
Mike Knoop discusses the evolution of processes at Zapier as the company scaled. He highlights the shift from ad hoc methods to more explicit processes, including the use of OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) to align teams. This segment emphasizes the importance of shared ownership among designers, product managers, and engineers to foster collaboration and focus on customer impact.
"thing that's difficult especially when you're trying to respect everyone's bandwidth yeah yeah in the in the earlier days when we had started scaling which we'd started kind of scaling these teams may..."
Fostering Team Alignment
In this segment, Mike Knoop explains how Zapier encourages team autonomy while maintaining alignment through shared OKRs. He discusses the importance of consistent interfaces between teams to prevent silos and promote collaboration. The conversation touches on the balance between individual specialization and collective goals, aiming to mitigate an 'us vs. them' mentality within the organization.
"of helps elevate everyone's role to be thinking about like the impact in the customer first I think what the thing I've noticed that happens in scaling zapier is there's a tendency for engineering at ..."
Tracking Progress with OKRs
Mike elaborates on how Zapier implements OKRs to track progress and align team efforts. He describes the dual approach of top-down and bottom-up goal setting, ensuring that team-level initiatives align with the broader company objectives. This segment highlights the significance of documentation in facilitating discussions and decision-making processes within the organization.
"autonomy to different teams to try a bunch of stuff yes we do um ok no cars are kind of our framework for how we pull Oh make that not chaotic if that makes sense sorry I like to think about there's l..."
The Role of Documentation
Mike Knoop emphasizes the importance of written documentation in Zapier's decision-making processes. He explains how having clear artifacts helps reduce conflict and streamline discussions, making it easier for teams to align on priorities. This segment underscores the value of transparency and clarity in remote work environments.
"like where are we doing well where are we not doing well identifying issues where we might be over investing in feature work or under investing in feature work or tech debt and things like that so the..."
Internal Tools and Communication
In this segment, Mike discusses the internal tools Zapier uses to facilitate communication and project management. He introduces 'async,' an internal blogging tool designed to manage information flow and reduce noise from platforms like Slack. This highlights Zapier's innovative approach to maintaining effective communication in a remote setting.
"those folks have shifted we've had stuff folks reached out from one team to another where there was like another part of the product they wanted to work on and they had some expertise that could be us..."
Managing Information Overload
Mike shares insights on how Zapier addresses information overload, particularly in Slack. He explains the company's philosophy of allowing employees to leave channels to reduce pressure and improve focus. This segment reflects on the challenges of remote communication and the strategies Zapier employs to maintain a healthy work environment.
"start rolling it out to all the individual teams this year for 2019 practically speaking I think the best version of this and this is aspirational I don't think we're quite there yet is you've got som..."
Curating Communication Channels
Mike discusses the evolution of Zapier's internal communication strategy, focusing on the need for curation in information sharing. He explains how the company tailors its internal tools to ensure that employees receive relevant updates without being overwhelmed. This segment highlights the importance of thoughtful communication in a growing remote team.
"approach where you kind of want for the work that's happening fifty percent of it to be kind of top-down driven and I think 50 percent of it being bottom-up because in reality the exact team leadershi..."
The Role of Email at Zapier
In this segment, Mike clarifies the limited role of email within Zapier's internal communication framework. He explains that while email is used for external communication, the company primarily relies on Slack and async for internal discussions. This approach reflects Zapier's commitment to minimizing email clutter and enhancing team collaboration.
"that you guys just like use a per itself to help you guys we are yes you use okay our dog for you but I remember in the early days talking to you guys you guys bought a lot of tools for yourself and I..."
Building Internal Tools
Mike shares insights into the development of internal tools at Zapier, including the creation of async. He discusses the importance of customizing tools to fit the company's evolving needs and how investing in internal tools has been crucial for Zapier's growth. This segment emphasizes the strategic role of internal software in supporting remote work.
"fascinating there's a feature in slack where you can turn off the leave join notifications and we turn that off because we wanted to give folks likes great the social comfort to be able to leave chann..."
The Heartbeat of Zapier
Mike describes the weekly updates that form the 'heartbeat' of Zapier's organization. He explains how these updates are shared through async, allowing team members to stay informed about each other's work. This segment highlights the significance of regular communication in maintaining a cohesive remote team.
"need you to read and make a decision are to think about so those were the early days I actually got inspired by Nick Francis over at help scout they were using a tool another remote team called p2 was..."
Curating Information for New Employees
In this segment, Mike discusses how Zapier curates information for new employees to help them acclimate to the organization. He explains the importance of setting up personalized views in async to ensure that new hires receive relevant updates. This approach reflects Zapier's commitment to effective onboarding and knowledge sharing.
"tool that what one of the cadences we have and zapier is every week we ask everyone right if right up for what they worked on this is kind of the heartbeat of the organization and so that goes up on t..."
Investing in Internal Development
Mike concludes by discussing the significant investment Zapier makes in developing internal tools. He shares insights into how this focus on internal software has enabled the company to scale effectively while maintaining a lean team. This segment underscores the strategic importance of internal development in a remote work environment.
"information they need and so does email have a specific role or is it kind of a catch-all free don't send any internal email really that's like my fantasy full-stop then we so we use email emails usin..."
Investing in Internal Tools
Mike elaborates on the significant investment Zapier makes in developing internal tools, which he notes consumes a substantial portion of their development resources. He discusses how these tools support the company's growth and efficiency, allowing them to maintain a lean team while scaling operations.
"like what is that ratio for you guys and I do you have special internal tools teams like you know the Facebook is kind of famous for we we did last year we had invested in internal sodium which was he..."
Innovation Through Internal Projects
Mike Knoop explains how internal projects at Zapier often lead to innovative features and apps. He shares anecdotes about how engineers have created popular apps during retreats, emphasizing the importance of fostering a creative environment that encourages experimentation and collaboration.
"a little more organic I'll say in the early days I think we invested more time and internal tools and it's something I'd love to spend more time on actually like I was just thinking just listening to ..."
Building Morale in a Remote Team
In this segment, Mike discusses the importance of company retreats for maintaining morale among remote employees. He highlights how in-person interactions foster empathy and understanding, which are crucial for effective communication in a primarily text-based work environment.
"they never make it to the life day yeah we tried pretty hard to make like pick our packet on projects and we curated them in a way that we thought that there was some value that could eventually make ..."
Retreat Formats and Feedback
Mike shares insights on how Zapier has evolved its retreat formats based on employee feedback. He discusses the introduction of unstructured time during retreats to encourage cross-team collaboration and spontaneous idea generation, enhancing the overall experience for employees.
"that helps smooth over a lot of issues that I think can happen when you are primarily using text-based communication tools where you do lose a lot of that tone you have to try like really hard to use ..."
Design Critiques in a Remote Setting
Mike Knoop addresses the challenges of conducting design critiques remotely. He shares techniques for facilitating effective feedback sessions, including structured exercises that encourage participation and creativity, ensuring that all voices are heard in the design process.
"thing week Behrman with was we added unstructured time we had always planned every hour of every retreat to date where hasn't it I know this you didn't think about it earlier right it's probably a bia..."
Encouraging Creative Collaboration
In this segment, Mike discusses methods for fostering creativity during remote design sessions. He emphasizes the importance of creating a safe space for sharing ideas and how structured exercises can lead to innovative solutions, even in a virtual environment.
"it should be surprising when you're hiring a bunch of people who are like default action self-driven etc and then you bring them all together like think right thing yeah it certainly worked out well a..."
Feedback Loops for Continuous Improvement
Mike explains the feedback loops established at Zapier to enhance design processes. He describes the regular design review sessions that allow for quick iterations and improvements, ensuring that the team remains agile and responsive to feedback.
"to being explicit again so one of the exercises I've done quite a few times with the team has been like the nine box design exercises what time I fold your paper into like nine boxes and you have like..."
Navigating Remote Innovation
Mike concludes by discussing the balance between structure and randomness in fostering innovation within a remote team. He highlights the need for flexibility and openness to new ideas, which can lead to unexpected breakthroughs in a remote work environment.
"they're initially like weird will just trigger like a different way of thinking about a problem that hasn't been thought of before but we've so another process we have in addition to like doing kind o..."
Design Review Cadence
Knoop explains Zapier's design review process, which includes regular Tuesday and Thursday sessions for product teams. This structure allows for rapid feedback and iteration, balancing deep work with collaborative critique, enhancing the overall design quality.
"again so it's it's kind of like a bit of a mix where you still get that deep work in between the two review check-ins but it's still in a zoom call well one of the things I like to ask people to do an..."
Zoom Etiquette and Collaboration
In this segment, Mike Knoop shares insights on Zoom etiquette during design collaboration sessions. He encourages team members to remain unmuted to foster spontaneous feedback and discussions, highlighting the unique challenges and opportunities of remote work.
"shared yeah I think they're kind of alluding to like serendipitous chance encounters right weird like you know water cooler conversation yeah one of the things we do is process be that's called the pa..."
Optimizing for Serendipity
Knoop reflects on the balance between structured processes and the randomness that can spark innovation in remote teams. He discusses the importance of creating opportunities for casual interactions, akin to 'water cooler' conversations, to enhance creativity and collaboration.
"sort of bubble up I mean to me like a lot of it ends up getting solved by just knowing what other people are working on which is a problem across every company I've never worked at before so I have no..."
Cultural Foundations for Remote Success
Mike Knoop outlines the cultural changes necessary for establishing a successful remote company. He emphasizes the importance of autonomy, written communication, and the need to build a culture that supports these values from the outset.
"remote organization so again thinking through things like defaulting action and encouraging empowering autonomy and how are we going to make decisions and thinking through some of those things in the ..."
Lessons from Remote Organizations
In this concluding segment, Knoop shares insights from other successful remote organizations and the importance of learning from their experiences. He reassures that building a fully remote company is feasible and highlights the cultural and structural advantages of starting from scratch.
"probably the two most important you guys wrote a book about this right I know we did yeah it's a book on running a remote company it's a couple I think it's a couple years out of date from a process s..."