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The Expert Behind Google’s NotebookLM AI Writing Tool
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Sign Up for "Writing Examples" and Learn From The Best Writing of All Time: https://www.writingexamples.com Steven Johnson has studied software and AI-based tools for thought for more than 35 years. His consensus? Large Language models and human creativity aren’t at odds. They’re at their best when they work in harmony. Johnson has written thirteen books, many of which explore how tools and technologies expand what humans are capable of and transform societies. He created NotebookLM to help writers use AI to supplement their creative process — not to replace their thinking, but to amplify it. In this episode, you’ll learn how to capture ideas without friction, how to seamlessly structure your work, how to leverage the element of surprise, and how to turn sheer information into unique insight — all while using AI, of course. Ultimately, you’ll soak up Johnson’s 35 years of expertise and come away with actionable steps to make your writing process faster and your insights more surprising. SPEAKER LINKS: Website: https://stevenberlinjohnson.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/stevenbjohnson Book: https://www.amazon.com/Steven-Johnson/e/B000APC0M6 Google Research: https://www.youtube.com/@GoogleResearch Google NotebookLM: https://notebooklm.google/ WRITE OF PASSAGE: Want to learn more about the next class for Write of Passage? Click here: https://writeofpassage.school PODCAST LINKS: Website: https://writeofpassage.school/how-i-write/ Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2DjMSboniFAeGA8v9NpoPv TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:31 Teaching Google 00:11:05 LLMs vs ChatGPT 00:16:05 Articles vs Books 00:20:30 Editing 00:27:20 Structure 00:35:00 Spark File 00:37:00 Jony Ive 00:38:20 Tools for thought 00:47:00 Google NotebookLM 00:50:30 Write faster 00:56:00 Writing on the level of sentences 01:05:10 The Infernal Machine 01:15:35 Writing curriculum 01:29:00 Core idea ABOUT THE HOST: I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible.
Segments Timeline
The Power of AI in Writing
In this segment, David Perell introduces Steven Johnson, a prolific writer and thinker on tools for thought. They discuss how AI, particularly large language models, can enhance the writing process. Johnson emphasizes the importance of structure in writing and how AI can assist in brainstorming and note-taking, making the writing process more efficient and creative.
"if you want to use llms to write better with sentences brainstorming note taking all that jazz Steph Johnson Our Guest today has probably thought more about this stuff than anyone on planet Earth over..."
Teaching Google: Insights from Experience
Steven Johnson shares his experience working with Google on the NotebookLM project. He reveals that the key to effectively using large language models lies in crafting clear and persuasive prose. Johnson discusses the surprising importance of writing skills in programming AI prompts, highlighting how effective communication can enhance AI functionality.
"creating this well you have been writing with technology and thinking about how to do this for 20 30 40 years years yeah and now you've had this opportunity to work with the team at Google on building..."
The Role of Citations in AI Writing
Johnson discusses the significance of citations and sources in the writing process, particularly in the context of AI tools. He explains how NotebookLM allows users to pull from canonical references and emphasizes the importance of maintaining a digital library of sources for easier access during writing. This segment highlights how AI can revolutionize research and writing workflows.
"are doing they're guessing and I have to commend you I so you wrote that piece in New York Times magazine took you like seven eight months on GPT and I got to say that was my Quake moment for GPT I re..."
Revolutionizing Research with AI
In this segment, Johnson elaborates on how AI can transform the research process. He describes the ability to ask open-ended questions and receive insightful summaries from a body of knowledge. Johnson emphasizes that integrating AI with personal research can significantly speed up the writing process and enhance the depth of insights.
"when you write those magazine pieces because you did the Bitcoin one about four years before yeah yeah the the I've done basically four of these pieces for the magazine that have been very long and it..."
The Spark File: Capturing Ideas
Johnson introduces the concept of the 'Spark File,' a tool for capturing ideas and insights as they arise. He discusses how this method can help writers maintain a flow of creativity and ensure that valuable thoughts are not lost. This segment underscores the importance of having a system in place to organize and retrieve ideas efficiently.
"expectation you do that tell me about these relationships that you have with your editors you've mentioned a few editors already yeah well another great editor story is um so I wrote a book um maybe m..."
The Influence of Jony Ive
In this segment, Johnson reflects on the impact of Jony Ive's design philosophy on writing and technology. He discusses how design principles can inform the writing process and enhance the user experience of writing tools. This connection between design and writing highlights the interdisciplinary nature of creativity.
"has ever mentioned that and I think that it's one of these things like when structure works you don't notice it exactly you know and so it's but it's like design you feel it yeah well we were just wal..."
Tools for Thought: Enhancing Creativity
Johnson explores various tools for thought that can amplify creativity in writing. He discusses how technology can serve as an extension of the mind, helping writers to think more clearly and creatively. This segment emphasizes the synergy between human thought and technological tools.
"I'd been like consistent with my branding I suppose but anyway I called it a spark file and it was just like it was initially a word doc then it became a Google doc um where I just put everything that..."
Introducing Google NotebookLM
Johnson provides an overview of Google NotebookLM, a tool designed to assist writers in their creative processes. He explains its features and how it integrates AI to enhance writing efficiency. This segment serves as a practical introduction to the capabilities of NotebookLM.
"really the best approach with that kind of thing and this is a theme that shows up over and over and over again since you wrote that 20 five piece in New York Times called tools for thought how can we..."
Writing Faster with AI
In this segment, Johnson discusses strategies for writing faster using AI tools. He shares tips on how to leverage technology to streamline the writing process, allowing writers to focus on creativity rather than logistics. This practical advice is aimed at enhancing productivity.
"obsessions um well this is something that stands out with notebook LM is how much State there is so most llm tools you have the interaction and there's a state within intera within the interaction So ..."
Crafting Sentences: The Art of Writing
Johnson delves into the intricacies of writing at the sentence level. He discusses the importance of sentence structure and clarity in effective communication. This segment highlights how mastering sentence construction can elevate overall writing quality.
"yeah I so one of the things that I did the other day which was just amazing that you can do this um I have a notebook inside of notebook LM where I just write all my random thoughts my kind of hunches..."
The Infernal Machine: Exploring New Ideas
Johnson introduces his new book, 'The Infernal Machine,' and discusses the themes of surprise and novelty in storytelling. He explains how connecting disparate ideas can create engaging narratives. This segment emphasizes the creative process behind writing and the importance of maintaining reader interest.
"necessarily just take what it gives me but so all of a sudden it's like a cubis painting where you can see the same thing from this angle from that angle little bit from above a little bit from below ..."
Developing a Writing Curriculum
In this segment, Johnson talks about the development of a writing curriculum that incorporates AI tools. He shares insights on how to teach writing in a way that embraces technology while fostering creativity. This discussion highlights the evolving landscape of writing education.
"for the longer books like infernal is like almost 100,000 words so it took me a long time to write um by the time I get to the end of it and really sit down to read the whole thing there's whole secti..."
Core Ideas: The Essence of Writing
Johnson concludes the conversation by reflecting on the core ideas that underpin effective writing. He emphasizes the importance of clarity, creativity, and the integration of technology in the writing process. This segment serves as a summary of key takeaways from the discussion.
"collaborative so it's a nice change of pace to just have other people yeah if you well I guess this did happen you walk into a college classroom and you say all right this is going to be the Steven Jo..."
The Core Idea of Innovation and History
In this concluding segment, Johnson articulates the core themes of his work, focusing on the interplay between historical storytelling and the nature of innovation. He emphasizes the importance of understanding underlying forces that drive change, whether in technology or society. This segment encapsulates his philosophy on writing and the interconnectedness of ideas across disciplines.
"core idea that your work is orbiting around because I see two parallel tracks and I've been thinking about this for the past few hours now of you have this narrative non-fiction drama track True Crime..."