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Lars Doucet — Progress, poverty, Georgism, & why rent is too damn high

Lars Doucet — Progress, poverty, Georgism, & why rent is too damn high

24 segments available

One of my best episodes ever. Lars Doucet is the author of Land is a Big Deal, a book about Georgism which has been praised by Vitalik Buterin, Scott Alexander, and Noah Smith. Sam Altman is the lead investor in his new startup, ValueBase: https://www.valuebase.co/. Talking with Lars completely changed how I think about who creates value in the world and who leaches off it. We go deep into the weeds on Georgism: * Why do even the wealthiest places in the world have poverty and homelessness, and why do rents increase as fast as wages? * Why are land-owners able to extract the profits that rightly belong to labor and capital? * How would taxing the value of land alleviate speculation, NIMBYism, and income and sales taxes? 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3XbdnOI * Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3CyfvbJ * Website + Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/lars-doucet * Follow Lars on Twitter: https://twitter.com/larsiusprime * Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Intro 00:01:11 - Georgism 00:03:16 - Metaverse Housing Crises 00:07:10 - Tax Leisure? 00:13:53 - Speculation & Frontiers 00:24:33 - Social Value of Search 00:33:13 - Will Georgism Destroy The Economy? 00:38:51 - The Economics of San Francisco 00:43:31 - Transfer from Landowners to Google? 00:46:47 - Asian Tigers and Land Reform 00:50:53 - Libertarian Georgism 00:55:16 - Crypto 00:56:50 - Transitioning to Georgism 01:02:30 - Lars's Startup & Land Assessment 01:14:46 - Big Tech 01:20:24 - Space 01:22:39 - Copyright 01:24:36 - Politics of Georgism 01:32:44 - Someone Is Always Collecting Rents

Segments Timeline

1
0:00 - 1:11
1:11 duration252 words

The Conflict of Economic Ideologies

Lars Doucet introduces the historical conflict between capitalism and socialism, emphasizing the misconception that one must choose between being pro-worker or pro-business. He highlights the relevance of Georgism in addressing poverty and wealth distribution, particularly in high-cost areas like San Francisco.

"over the last century we've had this huge conflict  all the oxygen has been sucked up by capitalism   and socialism duking it out we have this  assumption that you either have to be pro-worker   or pr..."

2
1:11 - 3:16
2:05 duration383 words

Understanding Georgism

Doucet explains Georgism, a philosophy rooted in the ideas of 19th-century economist Henry George. He discusses the concept of a land value tax, which taxes the unimproved value of land rather than the buildings or infrastructure on it, and how this approach addresses the historical struggle over land ownership.

"philosophy of a 19th century American Economist  by the name of Henry George from once we get   georgeism and basically George's thesis is kind  of the title of my book that land is a big deal   um ge..."

3
3:16 - 7:10
3:54 duration803 words

The Virtual Housing Crisis

Lars shares his observations from the gaming industry, where he noticed recurring virtual housing crises in online games. He connects these crises to real-world land speculation and the economic principles of Georgism, illustrating how similar issues manifest in both virtual and physical spaces.

"I'm excited to get into the theory of all of it  second but first I'm curious um how much of your   interest in the subject has been inspired with the  fact that as a game developer you're constantly ..."

4
7:10 - 13:53
6:43 duration1291 words

Taxing Unproductive Assets

Doucet discusses the moral implications of taxation, advocating for a focus on taxing unproductive rent-seeking behaviors rather than penalizing productive labor and capital. He argues for a shift in tax policy to alleviate the burdens on workers and encourage economic growth.

"long time ago he was comparing taxing land to  taxing unimproved labor or unimproved Capital   um and you know it's an interesting concept right  like should I so I have a CS degree right should I   b..."

5
13:53 - 24:33
10:40 duration2176 words

The Case for Land Value Tax

In this segment, Lars elaborates on the rationale behind implementing a land value tax. He explains how such a tax could reduce speculation and incentivize productive use of land, while also addressing the challenges of existing property tax regimes that discourage development.

"Theory and logic of georgiaism okay um one thing  I was confused by is why property owners who have   land in places that are really desirable are not  already incentivized to make the most productive..."

6
24:33 - 33:13
8:40 duration1812 words

Exploring the Economics of San Francisco

Doucet analyzes the economic landscape of San Francisco, discussing the factors that contribute to high rents and the persistence of poverty despite technological advancements. He connects these issues to the principles of Georgism and the need for reform in land taxation.

"actually that raises another interesting criticism  of Georgia Zoom this is actually a paper from   um Zachary gautenar um and Brian Kaplan where  it was titled the search theoretic critique of   geor..."

7
33:13 - 38:51
5:38 duration1154 words

Landowners vs. Value Creators

Lars addresses the disparity between landowners and those who create value through labor and innovation. He critiques the current system that allows landowners to profit from appreciation without contributing to the economy, advocating for a fairer distribution of land value.

"banking sector right exactly because we'll have  like a great Great Depression well I mean if you   okay so like that this is this is kind of like I  mean I'm not I'm not trying to compare landlords  ..."

8
38:51 - 43:31
4:40 duration973 words

The Impact of Big Tech on Land Value

In this segment, Doucet discusses the influence of major tech companies like Google on land value and urban development. He explores how these companies can exacerbate issues of land speculation and affordability, further complicating the housing crisis.

"high but I don't feel like they're that High where  the software Engineers were working at Google are   living at subsistence levels neither are they at  like the margin of production where it's like ..."

9
43:31 - 46:47
3:16 duration640 words

Lessons from the Asian Tigers

Lars reflects on the land reform experiences of the Asian Tigers, drawing parallels to Georgism. He discusses how effective land policies can lead to economic growth and social equity, providing a model for other regions facing similar challenges.

"economically efficient in fact I think it probably  is economically efficient but the effect of a land   value tax would be to shift um to basically  shift our sort of societal subsidy away from   upp..."

10
46:47 - 50:53
4:06 duration922 words

Libertarian Perspectives on Georgism

Doucet explores the intersection of libertarianism and Georgism, discussing how land value taxation can align with libertarian principles while promoting social justice. He argues for a rethinking of property rights in the context of land ownership.

"the book at the time I was kind of confused  because you know we've like there's something   called like the kosian um the coaching rate like I  forget the name of the argument basically the idea   is..."

11
50:53 - 55:16
4:23 duration933 words

The Role of Cryptocurrency in Land Value

In this segment, Lars discusses the potential impact of cryptocurrency on land value and speculation. He examines how digital assets could reshape economic interactions and influence land ownership dynamics.

"um I mean as a Libertarian or I guess somebody who  has like libertarian Tendencies my concern would   basically be like this obviously seems better  than our current regime of taxing things that   ar..."

12
55:16 - 56:50
1:34 duration328 words

Transitioning to Georgism

Doucet outlines the steps necessary for transitioning to a Georgist economic model. He emphasizes the importance of public awareness and policy changes to facilitate a shift towards land value taxation and equitable land distribution.

"way yes uh uh there's a interesting speculation  about what would happen if crypto really managed   to divorce and private I guess make private  your log of transactions or whatever and then   um I gu..."

13
56:50 - 1:02:30
5:40 duration1210 words

Lars's Startup and Land Assessment

Lars shares insights about his new startup, ValueBase, which focuses on land assessment and valuation. He discusses how this venture aligns with his Georgist principles and aims to address issues of land speculation.

"other interesting questions from Twitter uh Ramon  Dario Iglesias asks how do you transition from a   world today where many Americans have homes or at  least are aspiring to have homes to a world whe..."

14
1:02:30 - 1:14:46
12:16 duration2564 words

Big Tech's Influence on Society

Doucet critiques the role of big tech companies in shaping societal norms and economic structures. He discusses the implications of their influence on land value and the broader economy.

"that yeah this might be actually a good point to  talk about uh your new startup this is actually   something I don't know about either so yeah what  what is the what is the idea what are you up to   ..."

15
1:14:46 - 1:20:24
5:38 duration1151 words

The Future of Space and Land Use

In this segment, Lars speculates on the future of land use in space and how Georgist principles could apply to extraterrestrial environments. He discusses the potential for new economic models as humanity expands beyond Earth.

"um okay let's move on to the dessert let's move on  to like some some more fun interpretations and um   applications of georgiaism sure so um one I think  burn Hobart had this blog post on the diff I ..."

16
1:20:24 - 1:22:39
2:15 duration429 words

Copyright and Land Value

Doucet examines the relationship between copyright laws and land value, discussing how intellectual property can intersect with land ownership and economic equity.

"another juicy um implication that you were just  talking about which is space there is like this   idea I mean eventually hopefully Humanity Will  Conquer um space and like the rest of the Galaxy   so..."

17
1:22:39 - 1:24:36
1:57 duration400 words

The Politics of Georgism

Lars discusses the political challenges of implementing Georgism, including resistance from entrenched interests. He emphasizes the need for advocacy and public support to drive change.

"um and then I just remembered the other  question I wanted to ask about copyright   which is that's a really interesting and  complicated area because it's hard to think of   what is the intrinsic sor..."

18
1:24:36 - 1:32:44
8:08 duration1775 words

Understanding Rent Collection

In the final segment, Doucet reflects on the nature of rent collection and its implications for society. He discusses the need for a paradigm shift in how we view land ownership and value.

"um uh I mean I just means land value tax in  general do you think it'll be something that   will get passed in a democracy I you know there's  like you know a lot of people have homes or want   to hav..."

19
1:33:16 - 1:34:22
1:06 duration285 words

Rents and Community Wealth

Lars Doucet discusses the necessity of collecting rents on behalf of the community to address the issue of high rents and incentivize proper land use. He emphasizes that this approach not only fixes incentives but also redistributes wealth to those who contribute to it. The conversation touches on the governance of private cities, like Disneyland, and how they operate similarly to governments, raising questions about citizenship and community ownership.

"and they will hold the best land out of use and  there will be less building than there should be   and the rent will be too damn High yeah and the  rent has to be collected one way or another so   it..."

20
1:34:22 - 1:35:05
0:42 duration180 words

Innovative City Models

Doucet introduces the concept of 'starter cities' as a solution to urban issues, advocating for the creation of cities in America with loose zoning laws where residents can be shareholders. He discusses alternative methods like ground leases to implement land value taxation within these private entities, aiming to share land rents among community members.

"is through a government right you know because  we have this nice little democracy we can use but   you can all there's also this movement you know  there's this whole Charter cities movement and   th..."

21
1:35:05 - 1:37:21
2:16 duration506 words

Geoland Solutions and Georgism

Lars shares his journey as a game developer and his new startup, Geoland Solutions, which aims to revolutionize municipal mass appraisal. He highlights the importance of accurately measuring land value as a practical step towards implementing Georgism. Doucet reflects on the endorsement from economist Edward Glaeser and the significance of land valuation in advocating for Georgism.

"awesome awesome okay final question what is next  for you so what is next for me so I'm I'm still a   game developer and you know so nights and weekends  I'm overseeing a project that will release nex..."

22
1:37:21 - 1:38:25
1:03 duration260 words

Transformative Insights from 'Land is a Big Deal'

In this segment, Lars Doucet discusses the impact of his book, 'Land is a Big Deal,' on readers' perspectives regarding economics. He emphasizes how the book challenges conventional thinking and provides a new lens through which to view economic issues, likening it to a transformative experience for those who engage with its ideas.

"there for anybody to be able to pick up yep yep  awesome okay so the book is land is a big deal   um and where else can people find you yeah so  you can find me at a couple of places um one the   webs..."

23
1:38:25 - 1:39:05
0:39 duration162 words

Engaging with Critiques

Lars expresses his appreciation for challenging discussions and critiques regarding Georgism. He emphasizes the importance of exploring whether Georgism can genuinely address societal problems, reinforcing his commitment to understanding and advocating for practical solutions in economic policy.

"awesome okay uh thanks Lars thanks for coming  on today and thanks for making all your way   all the way over here to do this interview live  yeah well thanks for grilling me thanks for all   the hard..."

24
1:39:05 - 1:39:41
0:36 duration121 words

Podcast Closing and Community Support

The host wraps up the episode, encouraging listeners to share the podcast to help grow its audience. He thanks the editor and the team behind the transcripts, highlighting the importance of community support in promoting meaningful discussions on topics like Georgism and economic reform.

"appreciate it if you could share it this is still  a pretty small podcast so it is a huge help when   any one of you shares an episode that you like  post it on Twitter send it to friends who you   th..."