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Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine
37 segments available
A true honor to speak with Jung Chang. She is the author of Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China (sold 15+ million copies worldwide) and Mao: The Unknown Story. We discuss: * what it was like growing up during the Cultural Revolution as the daughter of a denounced official * why the CCP continues to worship the biggest mass murderer in human history. * how exactly Communist totalitarianism was able to subjugate a billion people * why Chinese leaders like Xi and Deng who suffered from the Cultural Revolution don't condemn Mao * how Mao starved and killed 40 million people during The Great Leap Forward in order to exchange food for Soviet weapons Wild Swans is the most moving book I've ever read. It was a real privilege to speak with its author. 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/jung-chang * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jung-chang-living-through-cultural-revolution-and/id1516093381?i=1000636931465 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4XJRFIvfRetdzq3pffmMUL?si=FGzMVzV1QfSbZl522jD5_g * Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Growing up during Cultural Revolution 00:15:58 - Could officials have overthrown Mao? 00:34:09 - Great Leap Forward 00:48:12 - Modern support of Mao 01:03:24 - Life as peasant 01:21:30 - Psychology of communist society
Segments Timeline
Growing Up in a Totalitarian Regime
Jung Chang shares her harrowing experiences growing up in China during the Cultural Revolution. She recounts the persecution of her family, particularly her father's arrest and torture for opposing Mao's policies, and her mother's resilience in the face of brutal denunciation meetings. This segment highlights the psychological impact of living under a regime that enforced strict loyalty to Mao, illustrating the personal toll of political oppression.
"and my father spoke up against Mouse policies he was arrested tortured driven inane and my mother was under tremendous pressure to denounce my father she refused and my mother was made to KNE on broke..."
The Cultural Revolution's Impact on Education
In this segment, Jung Chang discusses the closure of schools and the destruction of cultural institutions during the Cultural Revolution. She describes her forced labor as a peasant and the lack of formal education, which led to a generation growing up without access to knowledge. The segment emphasizes the regime's efforts to suppress intellectualism and the lasting effects on Chinese society.
"changu age 92 my family was scattered and I was exiled to the edge of the Himalayas and worked as a peasant and then as a Barefoot doctor which was a doctor basically without any training because ma h..."
The Desire to Write Amidst Oppression
Jung Chang reflects on her lifelong passion for writing, which was stifled during her childhood in China. She recounts a pivotal moment when she had to destroy her first poem to avoid punishment. This segment captures her internal struggle and the yearning for self-expression in a society that condemned creativity and individuality.
"and in 1978 um I there was a national exam to to select the people to go abroad for the first time under communist rule going abroad was based on on the academic basis and so I did very well at the ex..."
Questioning Mao: A Long Journey
In this segment, Jung Chang discusses the psychological barriers to questioning Mao's authority during her upbringing. She explains how intense indoctrination and fear of repercussions prevented her from doubting the regime for years. This exploration of her gradual awakening to the realities of Mao's rule provides insight into the complexities of living under a totalitarian regime.
"to be a writer and so um I when after my mother left I transcribed the tapes she left for me 60 hours of tape recordings and then I wrote wild swangs um which was published in 1991 first um and I beca..."
The Mechanisms of Control in Mao's China
Jung Chang elaborates on the mechanisms that allowed Mao to maintain control over China, including the isolation of society from outside information and the use of terror to suppress dissent. She reflects on her father's attempts to voice criticism through official channels and the futility of such efforts in a regime that punished any form of dissent. This segment highlights the pervasive fear and manipulation that characterized life in Mao's China.
"they were worried about the future of their children and they were worried that if children bled it would be disastrous for the children as well as for the family um so no alternative information and ..."
Psychology of Totalitarianism
In this segment, Jung Chang delves into the psychological tactics employed by Mao and other totalitarian leaders to maintain control over a vast population. She discusses how they manipulated societal dynamics, exploiting human nature to suppress dissent and ensure compliance.
"happen well that's a very good question that is the key of a communist Society of a totalitarian Society is the the control the organization I mean neither the Emperors nor any other rulers under the ..."
The Role of Youth in the Cultural Revolution
Chang explains how Mao utilized the youth during the Cultural Revolution, allowing them to indulge in their violent tendencies. She describes the chaotic environment where young people were encouraged to act out against perceived enemies, leading to widespread violence and terror.
"he did seem to have an incredible sense for and Stalin and other totalitarian leaders as well is the psychology of people and how to organize a society that has 800 million people how to organize it s..."
Mao's Control Through Fear and Violence
This segment highlights how Mao maintained his grip on power by instilling fear through violence and purges. Jung Chang discusses the role of the military and the Red Guards in enforcing Mao's will, creating an atmosphere of terror that suppressed any potential opposition.
"dispersed and they were sent to the Villages sent to the mountains and mean the disobeyed the dis disobedient ones were condemned themselves and they became the targets of the second round of purges s..."
The Aftermath of Mao's Death
Jung Chang reflects on the changes that occurred in China following Mao's death, noting how the political landscape improved as the oppressive regime began to dissolve. She draws parallels to other totalitarian regimes, questioning whether the death of a dictator leads to a more stable and humane society.
"another person to control the Army for him and this other person was D xaing and then suddenly the you universities began to reopen things were much better from 1972 yeah um and and by the this is a g..."
Mao's Indifference to Legacy
In this segment, Chang discusses Mao's lack of concern for his legacy and the future of China after his death. She contrasts Mao's materialistic worldview with the idea that a leader should care about their impact on society, emphasizing his disregard for the consequences of his policies.
"succeeded now it seems that the grandson it has begun to look into a succession of him by grooming perhaps I don't know his daughter or someone close close to him I mean Stalin um didn't couldn't do t..."
The Great Famine: A Human Tragedy
Jung Chang provides a poignant account of the Great Famine, which resulted in the deaths of approximately 40 million people. She emphasizes the personal suffering and tragedy behind this statistic, aiming to make the impact of starvation more relatable and tangible for the audience.
"well I I thought the entire purpose of the cultural revolution was that he was concerned that because of the great Lea forward that his his legacy would be destroyed in the way that kusf denounced Sta..."
Resistance and the Power Struggle
Chang discusses the internal power struggles within the Communist Party, particularly focusing on Liu Shaoqi's attempts to resist Mao's policies. She explains the complexities of political maneuvering during this tumultuous period and how these dynamics contributed to the Cultural Revolution.
"stopped from 1962 and Ma was Furious he he didn't like being thoed and being ambushed which he called the Ambush this is why he launched the culture revolution in 1966 to punish Lei and the party offi..."
Creating a Culture of Fear
In this segment, Jung Chang elaborates on how Mao created a culture of fear to consolidate his power. She describes the systematic targeting of teachers and intellectuals during the Cultural Revolution, illustrating how Mao used violence to suppress dissent and maintain control over the populace.
"time when he knew he was going to be purged but he was still in power it's confusing from the outside of why at that time you don't um if you can't control the Army because Lin B is going to control o..."
The Role of Education in Mao's Regime
Chang reflects on the impact of Mao's policies on education and the treatment of teachers during the Cultural Revolution. She shares personal anecdotes to highlight the brutality faced by educators and how this contributed to the overall atmosphere of terror and compliance in society.
"and that's how he operated um so that's why in the cultural revolution his first victims were School teachers you know I was in the secondary school in China I saw how the teachers were being abused b..."
The Human Cost of the Great Leap Forward
In this poignant segment, Jung Chang recounts the devastating impact of the Great Leap Forward, where approximately 40 million people perished from starvation. She shares personal anecdotes of witnessing the suffering around her, including the tragic stories of her maid's family and the harrowing experiences of her father during this catastrophic period. This segment emphasizes the profound human tragedy behind the statistics of famine.
"so maybe for a context it'll be helpful first to start talking about the Great lead forward the number you gave was around 40 million people and this this becomes a statistic for people you just think..."
The Legacy of Mao in Modern China
Jung Chang explores the paradox of Mao's continued reverence in contemporary China, despite his role in the deaths of millions. She discusses how the Communist Party maintains Mao's image to legitimize its rule, contrasting this with historical perspectives on tyrants in other nations. This segment delves into the psychological and cultural factors that contribute to the ongoing veneration of Mao among the Chinese populace.
"village he was he came back um very seriously famished and suffering from this illness called animals which was because of lack of food um and um oh yes and I even my family and we all and we all dran..."
Censorship and Historical Amnesia
In this segment, Jung Chang addresses the current state of censorship in China regarding historical literature, including her own works. She explains how the regime's clampdown on dissenting narratives has led to a generation of Chinese citizens who are largely unaware of the true history of Mao and the Communist Party. This discussion highlights the challenges of preserving historical memory in an environment of repression and propaganda.
"and I think one reason now is this made them a lot of money I mean the all the Corruptions or the you know whatever if you are if you're associated with the regime you stood to gain you stand to gain ..."
Western Excuses for Totalitarianism
Chang critiques the Western left's tendency to excuse the atrocities committed by communist regimes, including Mao's China. She discusses the academic defenses of Mao and the ideological biases that lead some to overlook the historical facts, questioning the motivations behind such justifications.
"them having coming back from Harvard and then uh still believing in well I mean in the West in the American universities yeah there were a lot of marxist I mean I you know a lot of people if they're i..."
The Illusions of Academia
Chang reflects on the illusions held by academics regarding Mao and the Communist regime. She highlights how these misconceptions are rooted in a lack of understanding of the historical realities and the tendency to romanticize revolutionary figures, ultimately leading to a distorted view of history.
"same sort of stuff by the way that is said about Cuba and stalinist Russia of well the literacy went up and this and that um North Korea today has high literacy are you going to say that North Korea w..."
Denial of Atrocities
In this segment, Chang discusses the denial of atrocities committed under Mao's regime, including the Great Leap Forward. She recounts how Western journalists and intellectuals often accepted false narratives from Chinese officials, illustrating the disconnect between reality and the perceptions shaped by propaganda.
"facts and also I think probably some people think oh China is always been awful you know under the empress and so on and so somehow the orientals must feel differently um I I know when you know when D..."
Deng Xiaoping's Complicated Legacy
Chang examines Deng Xiaoping's rise to power after the Cultural Revolution and his reluctance to denounce Mao despite personal suffering. She questions the political motivations behind this decision and the implications it had for the Communist Party's legitimacy and the future of China.
"the real truth even in um in the case of Stalin in Russia there was a famous New York Times Reporter who was doing the Russian coverage for the New York Times and there would reports would come in abo..."
The Fear of Collapse
Chang discusses the fear among Chinese leaders that denouncing Mao could lead to the collapse of the Communist regime. She contrasts Deng's situation with that of Khrushchev in the Soviet Union, exploring the complexities of maintaining power while grappling with the legacy of past atrocities.
"immediately condemning ma this is something I don't understand and I also think he made a big mistake if he had dissociated from ma like kusov had with st him I mean it would not have just been the ri..."
Ideology vs. Pragmatism
In this segment, Chang argues that while communist ideology provided a framework for Mao's actions, his pragmatism was the driving force behind his policies. She discusses how collectivization served Mao's goals and enabled him to exert control over the population, highlighting the interplay between ideology and power.
"collapse yes exactly exactly exact which was why by the way Mr she's argument I mean because he was against the goov against the paror glass noos and he's exactly that I mean the the Communist Regime ..."
Life in the Communes
Chang shares her firsthand experiences working in communes during the Cultural Revolution, describing the harsh conditions and lack of food. She explains how the commune system controlled every aspect of life, from work hours to personal freedoms, illustrating the oppressive nature of life under Mao's regime.
"otherwise it doesn't make sense to collectivize farms and to close down shops and it also necessitates the uh purges because communism is a science it has to work and if it doesn't work there must be ..."
Survival Under Oppression
In this final segment, Chang elaborates on the survival strategies of peasants during the Great Leap Forward. She discusses how the regime's control prevented uprisings and the extreme measures taken to suppress dissent, painting a vivid picture of the struggles faced by ordinary people in a totalitarian state.
"you know the what did say the great advantage of collectivization the communes is easier to control is it so this was um not just the ideology abstract ideology but it's for you know for what he wante..."
The Great Leap Forward: A Catastrophic Ambition
Jung Chang explains Mao's ambition during the Great Leap Forward to transform China into a superpower through rapid industrialization. She discusses the disastrous consequences of this policy, including the forced export of food that led to widespread famine. This segment reveals how Mao's ignorance of economic principles contributed to one of the deadliest famines in history.
"the famine this is how m ensured that the peasants didn't rise up in arms because the control from the commune I mean there was a thing and they every now and then the regime would would issue the sti..."
The Irony of Backyard Furnaces
In this segment, Jung Chang recounts the absurdity of the backyard furnaces initiative during the Great Leap Forward, where peasants were diverted from farming to produce steel. She highlights the environmental devastation and the futility of these efforts, which ultimately resulted in more harm than good. This anecdote underscores the irrationality of Mao's policies and their devastating impact on rural communities.
"I think some some a few tens of thousands of communes I mean imagine this highly concentrated organization yeah so people were not no longer individual Farmers yeah like um like what they were before ..."
Mao's Fatal Ignorance and the Famine
Jung Chang discusses how Mao's misguided policies, including the extermination of sparrows, led to ecological imbalances that exacerbated the famine. She reflects on the catastrophic consequences of these decisions and how they stemmed from a lack of understanding of basic economic and environmental principles. This segment emphasizes the tragic irony of Mao's attempts to control nature and the resulting human suffering.
"China traditionally we didn't we never produced enough food to feed the population the Emperors banned food export and bought a lot of food into China I mean so traditionally China was a food importer..."
The Legacy of Starvation
In this segment, Jung Chang shares a poignant story about a visit to her old village, where she witnessed the devastating effects of starvation caused by Mao's policies. She recounts the heart-wrenching conditions of the villagers and how this experience influenced subsequent political decisions. This narrative illustrates the personal impact of historical events and the lasting scars left by the Great Leap Forward.
"simple as that is food export I mean Lei is number two and his main target in the cultural revolution it was thanks to a visit back to his old village that made up his mind to stop Mouse policies cuz ..."
The Wastefulness of Mao's Policies
Jung Chang critiques the wastefulness of Mao's initiatives, particularly the backyard furnaces that produced little usable steel. She reflects on the societal and environmental costs of these policies, which prioritized ideology over practicality. This segment highlights the disconnect between Mao's ambitions and the harsh realities faced by the Chinese people.
"by his own ignorance about economy I mean because if you when you when you want to build a modern super industry you needed steel and steel was the most important thing and China's still producing cap..."
The Catastrophe of Sparrows
In this segment, Jung Chang elaborates on the disastrous campaign to kill sparrows, which led to ecological chaos and further agricultural decline. She discusses how this misguided effort exemplified Mao's ignorance and the broader failures of his regime. This account serves as a stark reminder of the unintended consequences of authoritarian policies.
"hugely wasteful I mean this I mean because for all this effort um this was 1958 um actually most of what the bankard furnaces produced were completely useless so he died ma died thinking of himself as..."
Western Misunderstandings of Mao
Jung Chang addresses the misconceptions held by some Westerners regarding Mao's policies and their outcomes. She reflects on the allure of communism as an alternative to capitalism and how this led to misguided admiration for Mao. This segment critiques the romanticization of authoritarian regimes and the dangers of ignoring historical realities.
"million debts but the thing is you know in the west I I indirect know somebody who was a was a steel magnet it was a great steel producer and he thought M's um steel bankard furnaces were brilliant id..."
The Opening Up of China Post-Mao
In this concluding segment, Jung Chang discusses the changes in China following Mao's death and the subsequent opening up of the country. She reflects on the improvements in living standards and the rejection of Maoist policies. This segment emphasizes the importance of historical context in understanding China's current trajectory and the lessons learned from the past.
"rejected as as fantasy yeah speaking of which tomorrow I'm interviewing Neil Ferguson who has written a biograph volume one of his biography of Kissinger and volume two which will cover this period wi..."
The Destruction of Family Bonds
In this segment, Chang elaborates on how Mao's regime sought to undermine familial ties, labeling expressions of love as 'warm feelingism.' She shares personal anecdotes about the pressure to criticize family relationships, illustrating how this tactic further isolated individuals and fostered division within society.
"country May grow into a manace to the world I mean that's another matter yeah it's a challenge that the world needs to face now but it's certainly not to make um to to it's not certainly not to to say..."
Mao's Manipulation of Morality
Chang explains how Mao's regime forced individuals into moral dilemmas, where they had to choose between their own integrity and the safety of their families. This manipulation created a culture of betrayal and fear, effectively breaking the spirit of the populace and ensuring compliance with the regime's demands.
"in China I wasn't denounced but we all had to attend criticism and self-criticism meetings I mean it really is stirs up some very basic discomfort and um upset unsettling upset feelings if you have to..."
The Roots of Communist Support in China
Chang explores the historical context that allowed Mao's communist ideology to take root in China. She discusses the influence of the Russian Red Army and the unique socio-political landscape of China, which contributed to the rise of Mao and the establishment of a personality cult around him.
"ask M to allow his son to join him so he could look after his son he and his wife who was so heartbroken seeing his son she wanted to kill herself anyway um D had to preface his appeal with I'm afraid..."
The Cultural Revolution's Unmatched Horror
In this powerful segment, Chang contrasts the Cultural Revolution with contemporary movements in the West, emphasizing the unparalleled destruction and fear experienced in China during that time. She recounts the loss of cultural heritage and the oppressive atmosphere that stifled creativity and freedom for a decade.
"1923 he didn't believe that the Chinese would go for communism and he thought um communism could only be brought to China by the Russian Red Army and he was right I mean in the earlier years or the Co..."